149 réponses à ce sujet

[silver-crescent]

adneate wrote...

silver-crescent wrote...
Wow, talk about missing the point completely.

Her point is "Wow this is a really subtle and deep character driven story we should like this!" I disagree this is a shallow and poorly done character story much like Mass Effect 2. Both games want to be something that they aren't which is thought provoking. People defend Mass Effect 2's shoddy plot and story structure with the same tired excuse "It's a character story and you just don't get it."

Band of Brothers is a good character story, The Shield is a good character story Dragon Age 2 is a sloppy unfinished mess that was meant as nothing more than a quick cash in for BioWare's failing publisher and owner.

You are missing the point. What's being discussed doesn't have ANYTHING to do with DA2 being "a sloppy unfinished mess that was meant as nothing more than a quick cash in for BioWare's failing publisher and owner."

But anyway, I guess if you don't like the ME2 story either... erm is there ANY game which you consider has a good story? 

[blothulfur]

Rectal entrapment delusions are a terrible thing, created by all the methane no doubt.

[adneate]

silver-crescent wrote...
You are missing the point. What's being discussed doesn't have ANYTHING to do with DA2 being "a sloppy unfinished mess that was meant as nothing more than a quick cash in for BioWare's failing publisher and owner."

God. Trying to talk to you is like talking to wall made of 100% recycled stupid.

[silver-crescent]

adneate wrote...

silver-crescent wrote...
You are missing the point. What's being discussed doesn't have ANYTHING to do with DA2 being "a sloppy unfinished mess that was meant as nothing more than a quick cash in for BioWare's failing publisher and owner."

God. Trying to talk to you is like talking to wall made of 100% recycled stupid.

What about replying to my other comment then?

[IanPolaris]

Miashi wrote...

silver-crescent wrote...
So the story has less quality because of the gameplay? Is that what you're saying?

I don't know if that's what the guy was saying, but personally I think so. I mean, it's just like books and movies.

If you translate an awesome book into a movie: when the production is terrible, chances are the movie will get poor reviews, because it was poorly executed. DA:2 had a brilliant storyline, but the game itself drew it very very poorly.

I'm not even sure that DA2 has a brilliant storyline, but otherwise, yes this is what I'm getting at.  Form and execution matter.  I don't care how brilliant your idea is, if the form is too sloppy for people to read/view/play it.  That's DA2 in a nutshell.

Frankly I think DA2 has the potential to be a fantastic short-story set in Thedas, but it should never have been made into a game.  It's clear the writers have one  particular story to tell and certain objective things have to happen in that story with a very rigid plot.

That's fine for a story.  Not so good for an RPG.

-Polaris

[Miashi]

The codex entries give a more vivid description of the characters if you care to spend some time reading them. Unfortunately, a character portrayal in a game shouldn't be about its codex entries.

I learned more on Anders' attitude reading his codex than actually speaking to him.

And I still think there's a brilliant storyline. Just buried in a lot of snorefest, frustrating and disappointing games mechanics.

[silver-crescent]

IanPolaris wrote...

Frankly I think DA2 has the potential to be a fantastic short-story set in Thedas, but it should never have been made into a game.  It's clear the writers have one  particular story to tell and certain objective things have to happen in that story with a very rigid plot.

That's fine for a story.  Not so good for an RPG.

-Polaris

That's an interesting point, but ultimately it's really just a matter of taste.

I for one don't really care for very open ended stories with tons of different ramifications in the classic "RPG" sense - these stories just end up becoming incredibly diluted most of the time. I'd much rather have a focused but complex narrative, even at the expense of choice.

To put it in game terms, I'd take a Final Fantasy over a Bethesda game any day, and DA2 clearly is a lot more like the former than the latter. I can definitely see why that's not everyone's cup of tea though.

[Brockololly]

adneate wrote...
Dragon Age 2 is a throughly mediocre game that pretends it's far deeper than it actually is.

BINGO.

You can see where they maybe were trying to go with the characters and story and so forth, but in terms of execution and the actual finished product thats been shipped, it fails to effectively execute those ideas.

[Paeyne]

IanPolaris wrote...

ZombiePowered wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Whoah....let me get this straight (pun intended). We are supposed to forgive a game of a metric ton of very visible flaws, a clearly rushed implementation, and plot holes bigger than an NFL Lineman because it makes us good to be a political liberal?! We are supposed to cheer this gae on because it shouts "gay rights"?! Really?

Whatever your political leanings or beliefs, a damn video game isn't the place for that honestly and even if it were, that doesn't excuse a frankly bad game by any objective standard of computer games.

Bear in mind that the same thing that the reviewer lauds is only supporte by perhaps a third (being VERY generous) of the general population at least in the USA.

-Polaris

Why aren't video games a good place to bring up modern issues? They are just as valid a medium as film, television, books, painting, or any other art form. We do need more games like this--games that are intelligent, not just the same rehashed story and solid game-play.

The same reason you shouldn't talk death and taxes with your friends at a social club (unless everyone understands that this will be the topic...i.e. a political rally).  Do that and you don't have friends.  At best, it has to be done carefully and I'd say try to avoid an overt PoV.

Frankly I don't think DA2 is groundbreaking on GBLT rights and frankly more from sheer developer laziness.  Not everyone in this world is Bi.  Honestly, if you want a game that handles sexuality in a much more thoughtful and mature manner, you simply need go no further than replaying DAO.

-Polaris

I really like your posts Polaris.  They make me think.  As usual, I find my self both agreeing and disagreeing with you at the same time.

I think there is a place for putting forth such issues in a video game.  More and more over the last decade video games have become a part of the North American culture.  I should be not be a surprise to anyone that video game would start to reflect many of the strengths and conflicts of that culture.   The Dragon Age games are built on a fantasy game world populated by humans.  I think that it would be far more unrealistic if these issues were not present.

Whether DA2 handles those issues well is a matter of debate.  I personally didn't like either the Anders or the Zevron character.   I work with a number of people in the gay community and was happy to see them represented in both games, however the characters came across to me as how a straight person perceives a gay man to be rather then how they really are.  If you look at the history of gay males in video games, they are all either effeminate to a certain degree or promiscuous to a certain degree.  While there are those in the community that fall into those categories, the vast majority do not wear their sexuality on their sleeve and would not look out of place at a sports bar or pub.

I do agree that all sensitive issues need to be handled carefully.  I as an individual am not that politcally correct, but I think the overt PoV you mention should be left up to the player.  If the game was more interective and responsive to players input, the story could feature many of these issues, perhaps expanding the players point of view without necessarily challenging it.  I speak of all the issues mentioned, not just the GLBT presence.

I do agree that many of the short-cut choices were ill considered when DA2 was made.  I don't think the strengths that the game has (which seem to vary from person to person) excuse the flaws of the game (many of which are universally agreed upon).  Whether the player forgives the game or Bioware for those choices is another matter and depends entirely on how much actual enjoyment they gained from the game.

[Foryou]

I have a love hate relationship with dragon age 2. I love it but at the same time i want to smash it in half

[AlexXIV]

I never denied that the characters and character interation in DA2 is probably the best I have ever seen in an RPG. But if DA2 is proof for something then that this alone doesn't make a game. It's kind of frustrating to see how much work (and probably love) went into the companions and their stories and that it gets wrapped in a story that is rather meh than anything. Well the story concept as such isn't bad either, pretty good actually. The three main events, the struggle for wealth and fame, the Qunari problem and the ever present mage-templar conflict which culmulates in Act3. The problem is the execution. That lack of options within quests, not only resulting in different outcomes but also by giving the player different approaches to solve a problem. It is mostly just hack and slay.

Everyone who played FONV knows how complex an RPG can be. Of course complexity comes with problems as well, but I rather ignore a bunch of bugs or quests that break if you do something stupid (like killing a quest npc) than no choices at all and just following the one possible path to the one possible outcome. As much I would like to congratulate Bioware for the characters I have a hard time doing it considering the complete package that DA2 delivers. I am pretty sure given enough time the game could have been a worthy sequel to DA:O. Maybe even better. You can even see it while you play. All the parts where you walk the red thread and think, there it could have branched out, and there, and there, etc.

Oh and before I forget, one of the biggest problems for me. The motivations of the main character. What motivates Hawke to become involved in Act2 and Act3. I could even half-way understand why Hawke wants to free Kirkwall from the Qunari, IF he/she has not lost everything by then. In other words his/her sibling. But in Act3 I have no idea why Hawke must get involved in one-sided mage slaying feast on either side. It's not even about 'restoring order'. The mages retreat to the gallows and only defend themselves ...

Modifié par AlexXIV, 06 avril 2011 - 12:29 .

[Plaintiff]

Paeyne wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

ZombiePowered wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Whoah....let me get this straight (pun intended). We are supposed to forgive a game of a metric ton of very visible flaws, a clearly rushed implementation, and plot holes bigger than an NFL Lineman because it makes us good to be a political liberal?! We are supposed to cheer this gae on because it shouts "gay rights"?! Really?

Whatever your political leanings or beliefs, a damn video game isn't the place for that honestly and even if it were, that doesn't excuse a frankly bad game by any objective standard of computer games.

Bear in mind that the same thing that the reviewer lauds is only supporte by perhaps a third (being VERY generous) of the general population at least in the USA.

-Polaris

Why aren't video games a good place to bring up modern issues? They are just as valid a medium as film, television, books, painting, or any other art form. We do need more games like this--games that are intelligent, not just the same rehashed story and solid game-play.

The same reason you shouldn't talk death and taxes with your friends at a social club (unless everyone understands that this will be the topic...i.e. a political rally).  Do that and you don't have friends.  At best, it has to be done carefully and I'd say try to avoid an overt PoV.

Frankly I don't think DA2 is groundbreaking on GBLT rights and frankly more from sheer developer laziness.  Not everyone in this world is Bi.  Honestly, if you want a game that handles sexuality in a much more thoughtful and mature manner, you simply need go no further than replaying DAO.

-Polaris

I really like your posts Polaris.  They make me think.  As usual, I find my self both agreeing and disagreeing with you at the same time.

I think there is a place for putting forth such issues in a video game.  More and more over the last decade video games have become a part of the North American culture.  I should be not be a surprise to anyone that video game would start to reflect many of the strengths and conflicts of that culture.   The Dragon Age games are built on a fantasy game world populated by humans.  I think that it would be far more unrealistic if these issues were not present.

Whether DA2 handles those issues well is a matter of debate.  I personally didn't like either the Anders or the Zevron character.   I work with a number of people in the gay community and was happy to see them represented in both games, however the characters came across to me as how a straight person perceives a gay man to be rather then how they really are.  If you look at the history of gay males in video games, they are all either effeminate to a certain degree or promiscuous to a certain degree.  While there are those in the community that fall into those categories, the vast majority do not wear their sexuality on their sleeve and would not look out of place at a sports bar or pub.

I do agree that all sensitive issues need to be handled carefully.  I as an individual am not that politcally correct, but I think the overt PoV you mention should be left up to the player.  If the game was more interective and responsive to players input, the story could feature many of these issues, perhaps expanding the players point of view without necessarily challenging it.  I speak of all the issues mentioned, not just the GLBT presence.

I do agree that many of the short-cut choices were ill considered when DA2 was made.  I don't think the strengths that the game has (which seem to vary from person to person) excuse the flaws of the game (many of which are universally agreed upon).  Whether the player forgives the game or Bioware for those choices is another matter and depends entirely on how much actual enjoyment they gained from the game.

Anders did not strike me as feminine at all, and if he is promiscuous, it's more to do with how he coped with life in the Circle, than his sexuality. If he is to be believed, mages in the Ferelden Circle were having sex all the time.

[KnightofPhoenix]

adneate wrote...
Dragon Age 2 is a throughly mediocre game that pretends it's far deeper than it actually is. If the developers spent more time making a game that was actually deep as opposed to one that just seemed like it was then maybe people wouldn't be so negative about it.

Agreed.

It had potential, but the execution was bad. The only possible exception is Act 2, which I like (though there are stuff specifically related to warfare, that don't make that much sense).

But Act 3, where we were supposed to get a very "human" conflict between mages and Templars, we instead get a face full of crazy, insane and stupid. They aimed for "edgy and dark" but they hit ridiculous, in the same fashion the excessive gore is ridiculous. We side with mages and end up fighting abominations and demons most of the time, taking away much of the humanity of the conflict. Add to that that the 2 major characters that show up when you start the game (Meredith and Orsino), virtually had no character development and end up being insane lunatics, with cutscenes and effects (Meredith) bordering on animated cartoon banility. And some nefarious ancient artifact that we know nothing about that is somehow supposed to make us care. Completely missing the point of the entire conflict.

 

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 06 avril 2011 - 12:33 .

[Arken]

LadyJaneGrey wrote...

Did anyone else read her ME2 DLC commentary?  I'm not saying her conclusion is right or wrong, but it does read like some students' papers I had to grade in college classes...

Edit:

She gets paid for this? Seriously? Tell me she does it for free. So she says Batarians deserve to be bombed, and killed. Yet she sides with the idea that "the ermee is eval, and theys funno corup our minds! Bad!" She seems to support generalizations, not only of people of Arabic decent but that all soldier and politicitions are scum, and does not really convince me of anything.

I'm not saying she isn't entitled to her opinion, but I disagree with her reasoning. That sick batarian went on to open a homeless shelter, and became the Gahndi of Batarians. Just you wait. That batarian from Omega is going to show up in Mass Effect 3, and end a war or something.

On-Topic: Again I think she is getting too caught up in the whole gay rights thing. I don't think mages represent homosexuals. My mage was straight. Discrimination isn't exclusive to one sexual prefrence. Mages are considered dangerous, because they can summon demons, blow up buildings, and slit their wrists without suffering any real consequence. They're oppressed by a religious organization of knights. I suppose mages are similar to athiests, or anyone who didn't believe in Jesus, during any time period where the Catholic/Christian chruch had control.

In the 16th century slaves where forced to attend church, and those who were caught worshipping their original gods would be punished severly. Mages match them the closest. I must have missed the gay thing.

Also her thing about not being bothered by the reused levels is a bit silly. Eveyone has their opinion, but I didn't like her articles. Just my opinion.

Modifié par Arken, 06 avril 2011 - 12:42 .

[Maverick827]

LadyJaneGrey wrote...

Did anyone else read her ME2 DLC commentary? I'm not saying her conclusion is right or wrong, but it does read like some students' papers I had to grade in college classes...

Edit:

Please expand on this. Her rhetoric is far better than most of the reviews I have read. Her journalism is much more apt as well, for that matter. I'd take a by-the-book, Batarians-as-Jihadists conspiracy theory essay over the now-standard, nerd-raging "DA2 sucks because I like old RPGs" diatribe any day of the week.

[LadyJaneGrey]

Maverick827 wrote...

Please expand on this. Her rhetoric is far better than most of the reviews I have read. Her journalism is much more apt as well, for that matter. I'd take a by-the-book, Batarians-as-Jihadists conspiracy theory essay over the now-standard, nerd-raging "DA2 sucks because I like old RPGs" diatribe any day of the week.

Glad you enjoyed it?

What I meant is:

her articles read like a college student who eagerly finds parallels between a modern issue and a work of fiction or a historical event and then proceeds to write an impassioned paper while ignoring possible nuances.

Doesn't make her wrong or right; it just reminded me of those years.

[Conduit0]

If theres anything to be learned from this thread, it would appear to be that the one thing the DA2 haters hate more than the game its self, its a positive opinion about the game.

Modifié par Conduit0, 06 avril 2011 - 01:37 .

[White_Buffalo94]

Delerius_Jedi wrote...

I think it has a good point - DA2 has an interesting premise and makes a welcome deviation from the standard save-the-world plot. But personally I can't say that that excellent idea forgives rather shoddy implementation in terms of pacing, combat mechanics (Oh look...*another* 30 guys...) and lack of depth. (No, Kirkwall still looks exactly the same 7 years later and all NPCs are still in the same place). The actual *game* that was meant to hold up the great narrative ultimately didn't manage to come close to the polish of its predecessor, whether you liked that game or not.

Actualy, I did notice a part of Kirkwall change, albeit a small hardly noticable one. At Lirenes Fereldan Imports (I think that is the name), her shop completely changes and is replaced with a wall by ACT II

[Denizen89]

I feel that they just wanted to push a agenda with the game and overlooked how they were neglecting the game itself. Origins was long and for a good reason it actually gave you time to actually talk to your companions. DA2 was a character story but yet badly done. This writer writing this article should take the actual flaws of the game into a much stronger account and consider that they mashed a lot of Mass Effect into this game and erased much of what made Origins great. His ideals are great but I wasn't moved in anyway. I don't care much for the Liberalism shown here and I already have a moderate view on such a matter. The developer should have taken another year or so and actually respect what made the original game.

[ZombiePowered]

IanPolaris wrote...

ZombiePowered wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Whoah....let me get this straight (pun intended). We are supposed to forgive a game of a metric ton of very visible flaws, a clearly rushed implementation, and plot holes bigger than an NFL Lineman because it makes us good to be a political liberal?! We are supposed to cheer this gae on because it shouts "gay rights"?! Really?

Whatever your political leanings or beliefs, a damn video game isn't the place for that honestly and even if it were, that doesn't excuse a frankly bad game by any objective standard of computer games.

Bear in mind that the same thing that the reviewer lauds is only supporte by perhaps a third (being VERY generous) of the general population at least in the USA.

-Polaris

Why aren't video games a good place to bring up modern issues? They are just as valid a medium as film, television, books, painting, or any other art form. We do need more games like this--games that are intelligent, not just the same rehashed story and solid game-play.

The same reason you shouldn't talk death and taxes with your friends at a social club (unless everyone understands that this will be the topic...i.e. a political rally).  Do that and you don't have friends.  At best, it has to be done carefully and I'd say try to avoid an overt PoV.

Frankly I don't think DA2 is groundbreaking on GBLT rights and frankly more from sheer developer laziness.  Not everyone in this world is Bi.  Honestly, if you want a game that handles sexuality in a much more thoughtful and mature manner, you simply need go no further than replaying DAO.

-Polaris

First off, the comparison of any Bioware game to a social club is a bit... off. They are single player RPGs, after all, and thus are quite well situated to engage the player with intelligent ideas. They don't need to exert a point of view--but they should be all means raise importent contemporary issues in interesting ways. As I said before, other art forms raise these issues, but for some reason people feel video games are meant solely as mindless entertainment.

And I'm not sure how you are claiming Origins to handle sexuality in a better way than DA2; both handle it well because they don't make a huge deal about it--those romances simply are. Both games do this exact same thing.

[Morroian]

adneate wrote...

silver-crescent wrote...
Wow, talk about missing the point completely.

Her point is "Wow this is a really subtle and deep character driven story we should like this!"

Thats not actually what she said so yes you did miss the point. She acknowledges the flaws but she's saying other aspects of the game override those flaws for her.

adneate wrote...

Band of Brothers is a good character story, The Shield is a good character story Dragon Age 2 is a sloppy unfinished mess that was meant as nothing more than a quick cash in for BioWare's failing publisher and owner.

I don't think either of those are good character stories. The Wire is a good character story, Breaking Bad is a good character study...... As for the quick cash in idea maybe Head Office at EA has that idea but I reckon you're selling the people who made the game short and making assumptions. 

[txgoldrush]

Except for the liberalism thing...the writer is right. And she missed the biggest theme....ESCALATION.

While this game is flawed, it is incredibily wriiten.

If its so poorly written, what WRPG talks about its themes better, whose name is not either Ultima or Planescape Torment?

And Origin's story sucked overall. It was nothing new, it was nothing deep, its not well executed. It was one of the most generic RPGs I have ever played. Some parts of the story were great, like "Nature of the Beast", but the game descends into an orc killing simulator with very little substance.

DAII on the other hand, may very well be Bioware's best written game since BGII. And if people knew how to use the investigate option during quests and gift givings, they would learn that the characters are just as deep if not deeper than Origins....and the depth is better fitted into the plot. Origin's character stories are about the past, DAII's is about the present.

[IanPolaris]

txgoldrush wrote...

Except for the liberalism thing...the writer is right. And she missed the biggest theme....ESCALATION.

While this game is flawed, it is incredibily wriiten.

If its so poorly written, what WRPG talks about its themes better, whose name is not either Ultima or Planescape Torment?

And Origin's story sucked overall. It was nothing new, it was nothing deep, its not well executed. It was one of the most generic RPGs I have ever played. Some parts of the story were great, like "Nature of the Beast", but the game descends into an orc killing simulator with very little substance.

DAII on the other hand, may very well be Bioware's best written game since BGII. And if people knew how to use the investigate option during quests and gift givings, they would learn that the characters are just as deep if not deeper than Origins....and the depth is better fitted into the plot. Origin's character stories are about the past, DAII's is about the present.

I don't get this.  Sure DAO was a formula but it was a classic and well respected formula that actually made your choices matter at least in how the world responded to you.  You actually got the feeling that your decisions mattered.  Not so here.  Frankly I may as well read a book.  Nothing wrong with reading a book of course, but that's not why I play CRPGs. 

You had a canned hero, canned story, no decision of yours matters, and the execution of it all is so poor that no one is going to want to explore the investigate options or find out how "deep" your characters are.  Good characters (and this is disputable) in rubbish still looks like rubbish.

-Polaris

[Conduit0]

txgoldrush wrote...

Except for the liberalism thing...the writer is right. And she missed the biggest theme....ESCALATION.

While this game is flawed, it is incredibily wriiten.

If its so poorly written, what WRPG talks about its themes better, whose name is not either Ultima or Planescape Torment?

And Origin's story sucked overall. It was nothing new, it was nothing deep, its not well executed. It was one of the most generic RPGs I have ever played. Some parts of the story were great, like "Nature of the Beast", but the game descends into an orc killing simulator with very little substance.

DAII on the other hand, may very well be Bioware's best written game since BGII. And if people knew how to use the investigate option during quests and gift givings, they would learn that the characters are just as deep if not deeper than Origins....and the depth is better fitted into the plot. Origin's character stories are about the past, DAII's is about the present.

Hold on a sec. *gets out hotdogs and marshmellows
I hope you're wearing asbestos underwear, you're going to need it.

[IanPolaris]

ZombiePowered wrote...

And I'm not sure how you are claiming Origins to handle sexuality in a better way than DA2; both handle it well because they don't make a huge deal about it--those romances simply are. Both games do this exact same thing.

I'll tell you how.  The romances in DAO were personalized to the hero.  There were usually some options that whie they all went to the same place, looked quite different doing so.  For example the male warden might wind up sleeping with Morrigan right after Lothering....but if he didn't, then you'd get a very different looking romance track that still tells Morrigan's romance story but quite differently.  That's just one example.

Furthermore individuals were individual.  Some were straight, some were bi, some like roses, some liked whips and chains.  If varied (and might even vary within the same character depending on your interaction...harden or not-hardened).

You see none of this in DA2.  It's all a formula hat plays out the same way (one set of dialog for Rivalmance and one for Romance):  Get Friendship/Rival to 50+ and Flirt at least once by the end of act two and go to your house after dark.  Sleep with love interest.  Max out Friendship/Rivialry by end of game and get declaration of love.  Romance over.  Furthermore it's the same no matter what class and what gender you play.

Badly done.  Smacks of a rush job.

-Polaris