661 réponses à ce sujet

[kaotician]

Not sure about opening those other relays just yet, what with not knowing what's on the other side at this moment in time........

[Zulu_DFA]

jamesp81 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

This whole story "Earth gets attacked by the Reapers!!!" is a repetition of that "Batarian missile strike"  mission on a larger scale. Either you save the residential district, and lose the colony due to the destruction of its industrial base, or you  save the industrial district and save the colony. Simple as  that.

If you save the industrial district who repopulates the colony?

Hint: it's Earth.

The Alliance colonies are populated. They only need to not get destroyed over somebody's sentimenality.

The Alliance's three largest colonies are considerably less than 1% of the total human population.  A 99% kill off of humanity has no ending other than enslavement or becoming a client race of someone like the Turians or Asari.

Enslavements are conducted by force. That's why to not be enslaved you need to have a force of yours. That's why if you and to make sure that what's left of humanity is definitely enslaved, throw that force away.

Also, despite several arguments from your opponents why this percentage does not count, you can't seem to get past it. With Saphra at least I was able to get to where the money come from. You just keep pounding with this 99% figure, like it's going to impress me. One last time: it's not.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 06 avril 2011 - 09:38 .

[Whatever42]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

I disagree that a few centuries of rebuilding would make us irrelevant in the long-term. The Salarians and the Asari have had 2,000+ years to do things, and they haven't hemmed in the Galaxy. Similarly, the Turians and Batarians have had 1300 years or more do stuff, and neither of them have become unstoppable powerhouses. Another 300 years is not the end of the world, even given a theoretical "end" of our "world."

Humanity is fast, crazy, and just diplomatic enough to maintain relevance. We only took 30 years from FTL discovery to multiple colonies of several million people. That is insane. The Batarians are a problem for the council, and they're just going to get worse - nobody likes slavery, but nobody wants galactic war with a former ally, either. Humanity is the council's best weapon against them, and I think we will remain so, even if we have to wait another 300 years to be useful again.  The Turians obviously don't have what it takes to get in the Batarian's faces, or they would have resolved that situation centuries ago with no need for humanity. It's obvious that humanity was seen as an excuse to cut a dangerous and unpleasant race loose diplomatically (the council refused to favor the Batarians over us, so they stormed out. The general reaction to that seems to be "good riddance").

Also, if we become a "pet" race, it will be for the Asari or Salarians, I think. They don't want to become overly reliant on the Turians, after all. I think we'd have a similar status to the pre-council Turians during the Krogan rebellions - a valuable resource to be somewhat condescended to, but an important strategic bulwark. We are simply too good at exploration, colonization, and war to be squandered.

Also, don't forget that there are loads of inactive relays. When all habitable worlds in reach become overpopulated, someone has to go through those relays and see what we find on the other side. Humanity, with our curiosity and somewhat lax views on colonial safety, is the perfect candidate for such missions. Even if we aren't technically allowed to do so, I'm sure we'll have a few "wildcat" colony ships sneaking around, looking for relays.

If you're just trying to argue that if humanity is coddled by the galactic community that it can recover from virtual extinction in a few centuries, sure, I can agree with that. I do disagree that humanity will ever really thrive again like it is now.

Humanity is currently contesting with the Batarians for systems. We would lose all those systems and have no real place to expand. And honestly, its a big chance to take. We would be depending on a very cautious, very self-interested council to protect our interests when they have never shown any inclination to do so. I suspect we'll be force to give up most of our worlds. Of course, paragon shep will probably win them over and we and the brown, spotted wood owl will be given preferential treatment in the council zoo.

Not exactly a happy ending for humanity.

[kaotician]

I'd just like to point out that 99% of the time not 98% of us think that even 97% of your argument is statistically valid, nor for that matter 96%, 95%, 94%, 93% or 92%. However, 91% of the time your view could account for 90% of the views on here, since 89% of the time somewhat more than 88% of people simply don't know what they're talking about - not including, of course, 87% of the people reading this.

Conversely 86% may hold that it has some merit, though 85% of that number may nevertheless sit on the fence anyway, although 84% would note that doing so is good only for a pain in the ***, at least 83% of the time. However, I guess what's important then is that 82% of those people may find it worthwhile, at least 81% of the time, to cogitate further, although 80% may find that cogitation worthless. That doesn't account however for the 79% of people who may nevertheless like to think that your view has some merit,, though 78% will simply not be sure, excepting 77% who will try at least to reach a conclusion..........

[jamesp81]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

This whole story "Earth gets attacked by the Reapers!!!" is a repetition of that "Batarian missile strike"  mission on a larger scale. Either you save the residential district, and lose the colony due to the destruction of its industrial base, or you  save the industrial district and save the colony. Simple as  that.

If you save the industrial district who repopulates the colony?

Hint: it's Earth.

The Alliance colonies are populated. They only need to not get destroyed over somebody's sentimenality.

The Alliance's three largest colonies are considerably less than 1% of the total human population.  A 99% kill off of humanity has no ending other than enslavement or becoming a client race of someone like the Turians or Asari.

Enslavements are conducted by force. That's why to not be enslaved you need to have a force of yours. That's why if you and to make sure that what's left of humanity is definitely enslaved, throw that force away.

Also, despite several arguments from your opponents why this percentage does not count, you can't seem to get past it. With Saphra at least I was able to get to where the money come from. You just keep pounding with this 99% figure, like it's going to impress me. One last time: it's not.

What I'm trying to pound is some common sense economics here.  I don't much care if it impresses you. This is a fact: destruction of almost all of the human race will cripple it's ability to defend itself.  If you believe otherwise, that's fine, doesn't mean you're right.

[Legbiter]

Zulu_DFA wrote...
The Alliance colonies are populated. They only need to not get destroyed over somebody's sentimenality.

The human footprint in space is tiny compared to Earth's population. Miniscule.

If you add up the population numbers from the codex and the planet descriptions of the largest colonies, put together, are something like 0.12% of the total human race.

There is no debate, if Earth goes (that means Arcturus goes as well), so does humanity's place in the galaxy. Especially if the Reaper offensive is confined and halted around Sol. The rest of the human colonies won't have the population or the manufacturing capability to maintain it's current standing.


Nietzsche is great when you're an angry male and 17 but after 20 his philosophy is a cautionary tale of the angry loser.

Modifié par Legbiter, 06 avril 2011 - 10:01 .

[Gill Kaiser]

No, I would prefer it, because it has the potential for a much more interesting story than the old cliche save the Earth stuff. It would become about the galaxy. My worst fear for ME3 is that they make it all about humans and the Earth.

[kaotician]

Gill Kaiser wrote...

No, I would prefer it, because it has the potential for a much more interesting story than the old cliche save the Earth stuff. It would become about the galaxy. My worst fear for ME3 is that they make it all about humans and the Earth.

I'm with you on this. Like Babylon 5, the whole tale is enriched by it being about every race, and every culture.

[Icinix]

Gill Kaiser wrote...

No, I would prefer it, because it has the potential for a much more interesting story than the old cliche save the Earth stuff. It would become about the galaxy. My worst fear for ME3 is that they make it all about humans and the Earth.

Straight from my own heart and mind!!

I don't feel so alone anymore! 

[Almostfaceman]

Gill Kaiser wrote...

No, I would prefer it, because it has the potential for a much more interesting story than the old cliche save the Earth stuff. It would become about the galaxy. My worst fear for ME3 is that they make it all about humans and the Earth.

Meh the Eath doesn't have to be destroyed to have a great "save the galaxy" tale.  For someone who isn't all about the humans and Earth, you sure did pick an odd tale to enjoy.  Mass Effect is all about humans and being the new kids on the galactic block and how we handle ourselves in that role.  It is the cliche "save the galaxy and Earth" tale.

[Keltoris]

1 word: Drell.

They're still around 200 years after their homeworld went defunc and only a couple of million at most survived the incident - "In the following ten years, the hanar would transport hundreds of thousands of drell to the hanar world, Kahje."

Worst case is we end up being a Turian protectorate like the Volus or something. Yeah, a fair few Terminus colonies would be in danger, but not every single one is there. Although, the Reapers seem to be arriving via the Batarian area of space....

And it'd really ****** TIM off... so I'm all for the loss of Earth being possible. Not guaranteed, and not a "Save X or Y" Virmire choice.

[Zulu_DFA]

jamesp81 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

This whole story "Earth gets attacked by the Reapers!!!" is a repetition of that "Batarian missile strike"  mission on a larger scale. Either you save the residential district, and lose the colony due to the destruction of its industrial base, or you  save the industrial district and save the colony. Simple as  that.

If you save the industrial district who repopulates the colony?

Hint: it's Earth.

The Alliance colonies are populated. They only need to not get destroyed over somebody's sentimenality.

The Alliance's three largest colonies are considerably less than 1% of the total human population.  A 99% kill off of humanity has no ending other than enslavement or becoming a client race of someone like the Turians or Asari.

Enslavements are conducted by force. That's why to not be enslaved you need to have a force of yours. That's why if you and to make sure that what's left of humanity is definitely enslaved, throw that force away.

Also, despite several arguments from your opponents why this percentage does not count, you can't seem to get past it. With Saphra at least I was able to get to where the money come from. You just keep pounding with this 99% figure, like it's going to impress me. One last time: it's not.

What I'm trying to pound is some common sense economics here. I don't much care if it impresses you. This is a fact: destruction of almost all of the human race will cripple it's ability to defend itself.  If you believe otherwise, that's fine, doesn't mean you're right.

Just because you believe those 99% matter doesn't mean you're right, Mr. Common Sense Economist. It's a version of future where there is a whole independent faction of robots, that has an economy despite not having money, can you believe that?

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 06 avril 2011 - 10:33 .

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...
If you're just trying to argue that if humanity is coddled by the galactic community that it can recover from virtual extinction in a few centuries, sure, I can agree with that. I do disagree that humanity will ever really thrive again like it is now.

Humanity is currently contesting with the Batarians for systems. We would lose all those systems and have no real place to expand. And honestly, its a big chance to take. We would be depending on a very cautious, very self-interested council to protect our interests when they have never shown any inclination to do so. I suspect we'll be force to give up most of our worlds. Of course, paragon shep will probably win them over and we and the brown, spotted wood owl will be given preferential treatment in the council zoo.

Not exactly a happy ending for humanity.

Not coddled, no. Protected and left alone on a world or two, with a small amount of starter aid and supplies, yes. Of course if a major race wanted to wipe out a minor one, it could. But so far, the asari and salarians have had the opportunity to do that over and over again, and they do not.

The Batarians have been a spacefaring race for over two thousand years. What grounds do you have to premise that they will make more progress in the next 300 years than they have in the previous two millenia? Also, bear in mind that they had direct council support for the bulk of that history. Finally, I'd argue that the Batarian expansion is somewhat limited by their own society - they can't have colonies without slaves, and if they exhaust their current supply of slaves, they'll have trouble expanding further. If they decide to breed humans as slaves, I think that will turn out well for them, given the fact that having human slaves never backfires for anyone ever.

Also, we are not running out of habitable worlds! We are running out of convenient worlds, and that is a huge difference. Most colonized systems are a few days FTL travel away from a relay... there will always be opportunities for a hungry race willing to settle further out, but there is no indication that any race other than humanity is quite so hungry.  Humanity is willing to do some crazy ass stuff to live. Even if we had nothing but NAFAL ships, ansibles, and cryosleep, we'd use that to find new colony worlds. There's a CDN about how we actually did that, a few years before we discovered the relays, did it without even having ansibles! Asari stumbled across a few hundred humans, living on a garden world, completely unaware of the past 100 years of space history. (God damnit I want a SF game set in a world where NAFAL is the fastest space travel tech. Will never happen, but would be interesting.)

Humanity is not the strongest race in the galaxy. We are not the smartest, the most diplomatic, the longest lived, the best at science, or the best at war. What we do, where we shine, is our ability to expand and explore.

Each race we've met embodies one of the elements of harmony pillars of civilization.

Asari: Diplomacy
Salarians: Intelligence
Krogan: Strength
Turians: Discipline (or Tactics)
Hanar: Faith
Elcor: Stability
Volus: Business
Humanity: Curiosity

Several aliens remark upon this in ME1, but it's easy to forget: humanity's desire to ask questions, to go out from known lands, and to explore is exceptional. It is our defining feature, as sure as the Krogan's strength is theirs.

In 300 years, the galaxy will not suddenly be "full." It wasn't full when we showed up to the party 1300 years late, and another three centuries aren't going to change that.

Our curiosity and the spark of exploration are our strength, and it would carry us through any crisis just as surely as it gave us an unprecedented entrance onto the Galactic stage.

[Zulu_DFA]

Legbiter wrote...

if Earth goes (that means Arcturus goes as well)

Excuse me, how does the former mean the latter?

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 06 avril 2011 - 10:39 .

[Tazzmission]

i would love to see the humans become extinct.... itll be nice to see the bad guys win for once

[Legbiter]

Keltoris wrote...

1 word: Drell.

They're still around 200 years after their homeworld went defunc and only a couple of million at most survived the incident - "In the following ten years, the hanar would transport hundreds of thousands of drell to the hanar world, Kahje."

Worst case is we end up being a Turian protectorate like the Volus or something.

That's the best case scenario.

Worst case scenario: The tiny remnant of humanity gets rolled up in the Attican Traverse and the rest become like natives on reservations, enjoying the sympathy of the galaxy but the almost complete annihilation of their homeland and culture result in total apathy except for the next moonshine delivery.

[Legbiter]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Legbiter wrote...

if Earth goes (that means Arcturus goes as well)

Excuse me, how does the former mean the latter?

Common sense?

[Zulu_DFA]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Just because you believe those 99% matter doesn't mean you're right, Mr. Common Sense Economist. It's a version of future where there is a whole independent faction of robots, that has an economy despite not having money, can you believe that?

You don't need paper money to have an economy, Zulu. All you need are resources.

That's right. And Earth has 0 (zero) of those. Except the manpower which is mostly worthless in the ME timeline becasue it is easily replaced by cheaper to maintain mechs, robotics and VIs.

Saphra Deden wrote...

Another problem with your grand vision here is that you'll be tethering yourself even closer to the galactic community, only this time you'll be a lightweight 120 lb boxer up against 250 lb heavy weights.

No, I'll be a lightweight boxer with a Magnum against heavyweights with Magnums. I'll draw faster.

Saphra Deden wrote...

The only people who will be capable of buying your goods in large quantities will be aliens. As they will, by far, be your biggest market (that is if you intend to "thrive") you will have greater incentive to meet their demands, both economic, political, and military. You will have given up a lot of your sovereignity.

Not if they give up theirs first.

Saphra Deden wrote...

With Earth your biggest market was other humans who had an interest in keeping you happy and keeping you growing. Not so much with aliens.

At least the aliens don't pay me with my own cash.

Saphra Deden wrote...

You'll be a toddler trying to walk a Great Dane.

I'll be William the Conqueror, who didn't have much of a homeland to speak of and subdued a nation with a handful of well organized warriors.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 06 avril 2011 - 10:59 .

[Tazzmission]

Legbiter wrote...

Keltoris wrote...

1 word: Drell.

They're still around 200 years after their homeworld went defunc and only a couple of million at most survived the incident - "In the following ten years, the hanar would transport hundreds of thousands of drell to the hanar world, Kahje."

Worst case is we end up being a Turian protectorate like the Volus or something.

That's the best case scenario.

Worst case scenario: The tiny remnant of humanity gets rolled up in the Attican Traverse and the rest become like natives on reservations, enjoying the sympathy of the galaxy but the almost complete annihilation of their homeland and culture result in total apathy except for the next moonshine delivery.

i believe half of earths  people should be extinct wile the other half maybe gets put into some form of protection on the hannar, asari, turrian, flotila worlds

[Legbiter]

Tazzmission wrote...

i believe half of earths  people should be extinct wile the other half maybe gets put into some form of protection on the hannar, asari, turrian, flotila worlds

Go petition the Reapers for mercy.

[Inquisitor Recon]

Ms. Lovey Dovey wrote...

I don't care what they do! I just want the game to have three themes: DARK, MATURE, and EPIC.

Nay, it must be GRIM-DARKNESS.

[Dave666]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

This whole story "Earth gets attacked by the Reapers!!!" is a repetition of that "Batarian missile strike"  mission on a larger scale. Either you save the residential district, and lose the colony due to the destruction of its industrial base, or you  save the industrial district and save the colony. Simple as  that.

If you save the industrial district who repopulates the colony?

Hint: it's Earth.

The Alliance colonies are populated. They only need to not get destroyed over somebody's sentimenality.

A question for you Zulu.  How many colonists do you believe are needed to make a viable Colony?