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[piemanz]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Gentleman Moogle wrote...
Alright then, let's wax philosophical. Who decides what is the greater good? You? I sincerely hope not, since you seem intent on flinging our species into a cosmic garbage disposal.

It's better than total and utter extinction which is what you have in mind. As a Reaper our species will still exist and will still exert its will upon the universe. All you are offering is death.

You obviously never watched star trek .

Take away our individuality, and freedoms, are we really human anymore?.Is there really any point in preserving a speicies that is so utterly neutered?.

I'd have to say no.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Saphra Deden wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Yes, but where are they NOW? Their culture is basically non-existant, their history a joke

Once again, learn you some history before you try and use it against me. The Mongols left a far greater impact on the world than you realize, something far beyond just culture.

Here is a hint: it is in your blood.

So is hemoglobin. By that argument, our mitochondrial Eve is the most important culture ever: the biggest, strongest culture ever to exist was a single woman in Africa.

Now my Mongols example was mostly a joke, but I don't expect people to get jokes on the internet unless they're specifically put forth as such. It's that whole thing about text and inflection. The thing I'm trying to say is this: sometimes a small, gentle culture can have more impact than a big, warlike one, when you take an asari-sized "long view" of things. Crazy war machines tend to burn themselves out.

If you ever get a chance, watch the Secret of Kells. It's about a group of people working to preserve illuminated manuscripts in the face of an invading viking horde. They  had nothing, no defenses that would help, no army to save them... all they had was hope and learning and art. And yet, the Irish are still here, and we still have the book of Kells.

[Whatever42]

The Protheans never qualified for Reaperdom, you can't compare their fate to the fate of reaperfied humans.

I think of it as a more extreme version of the borg. I don't know if death is preferable to becoming a drone or maybe its even effectively the same thing. If you lose your sense of self are you still you? Regardless, not something I would be eager to experience.

[Almostfaceman]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...

We will be totally and utterly extinct.  Humans will be gone.  Only Reapers will remain.

Reapers descended from humans which incorporate the consciousness of our species. It's call procreation.

Again, no proof for this assumption. None. At. All.  Sovereign could be lying and Legion is just parroting what Sovereign told them.  Death holds benefits just as certain.

[Gentleman Moogle]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Gentleman Moogle wrote...
Alright then, let's wax philosophical. Who decides what is the greater good? You? I sincerely hope not, since you seem intent on flinging our species into a cosmic garbage disposal.

It's better than total and utter extinction which is what you have in mind. As a Reaper our species will still exist and will still exert its will upon the universe. All you are offering is death.

Show me one reaper that retains its will as a species. 

Just one. 

You can't, because there are none. There aren't 'collector' reapers. There aren't 'Prothean' reapers, there won't be "turian" "Asari" or "Volus" reapers. 

There are only reapers. 

Yes, my way condemns humanity to death. But we will die as humans. You, on the other hand, would see us forced to become something else. There is no 'humanity' in a reaper. There is nothing that makes us great and good. There is no purpose, no goal, nothing for us to strive for to uplift ourselves. 

There is only 'existence'. And 'existence' is not 'life'.

It is better to die a man, than to live a slave. 

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Saphra Deden wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

So is hemoglobin. By that argument, our mitochondrial Eve is the most important culture ever: the biggest, strongest culture ever to exist was a single woman in Africa.

I'm an athiest but thanks anyway.

Mitochondrial eve is not a religious concept. It's a common scientific one,  I'm sorry I didn't realize you hadn't studied genetics. It comes up a lot in anthropology, biology and genetics research, so I assumed most people would know about it. It also appears on the discovery channel a lot, for your common man.

From Wikipedia
"In the field of human genetics, Mitochondrial Eve refers to the matrilineal "MRCA" (most recent common ancestor)  In other words, this was the woman from whom all living humans today descend, on their mother's side, and through the mothers of those mothers and so on, back until all lines converge on one person"

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 07 avril 2011 - 01:58 .

[sympathy4saren]

Legbiter wrote...

Gentleman Moogle wrote...

Alright then, let's wax philosophical. Who decides what is the greater good? You? I sincerely hope not, since you seem intent on flinging our species into a cosmic garbage disposal. Me? Them? Some nebulous otherworldly "they" that you can refer to without the need to produce hard numbers?

How many tragedies have ocurred because of "the greater good." Would you have recommended we as Americans meekly bow our heads to the encroaching british, a force far stronger, far more numerous, far more experienced and better equipped than our own citizen soldiers, because the cost of freedom may have been too great?

Would you have counciled Russia bend the knee to the approaching German tanks in World War 2? The loss of life for that country was staggering, with bodies literally piling chest high as the sons of russia flung themselves at the german invaders. Would you have cried "peace, peace at all costs", and damned europe to slavery under the Third Reich, to avoid the millions of deaths that ensued?

"The greater good" is a nice word phrase. It allows you to voice a controversial opinion, and then back it up with some imagined majority behind you. But who are you to say what the greater good is? Is the greater good continuance as a species, even though we will cease to be "human" and instead be "reaper", doomed to do nothing but 'exist', while damning future races to our very fate? Or is the greater good standing up and fighting, even to our last breath as a species, against these merciless creatures who have decided that ours is a race that must end according to their whims?

Either way, our race ceases to exist as "human." In your way, we feed the crocodile and eventually become him. In my way, we die with our heads held high, knowing that while our impact may have been small, we denied the Reapers another soldier, and may even cause enough damage to give future races a fighting chance. 

So you tell me. Which way is "better."

Lame.

You want to derail the thread into general Americana ****** start a thread in Off-Topic.

Because America is lame...oh wait...until there are massive issues, then its...help us, United States!

[sympathy4saren]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

The Protheans never qualified for Reaperdom, you can't compare their fate to the fate of reaperfied humans.

I think of it as a more extreme version of the borg. I don't know if death is preferable to becoming a drone or maybe its even effectively the same thing. If you lose your sense of self are you still you? Regardless, not something I would be eager to experience.

This is applicable today...in real life. Even in America. There is internal strife for freedom. One side wants to be left alone and be individually free...another side wants social justice and total equality....controlled from the top. Most won't dare say that directly because that notion would be utterly rejected by the massive majority, but it is still relevant in real life.

[Whatever42]

sympathy4saren wrote...
This is applicable today...in real life. Even in America. There is internal strife for freedom. One side wants to be left alone and be individually free...another side wants social justice and total equality....controlled from the top. Most won't dare say that directly because that notion would be utterly rejected by the massive majority, but it is still relevant in real life.

Different people do desire different degrees of freedom versus order, I agree, but completely losing your sense of self is a few orders of magnitude more extreme. No matter how much I view myself as a cog in the big social machine, I still know I'm me. If you really aren't you any more but just a small part of a greater mind, isn't "you" effectively gone?

Of course, we don't know that's the way Reapers work. Geth individual programs are democratic and concievable still have an individual self. I don't think Reapers are democratic (hence the whole indoctrination field) but do the individuals acended have any awareness of self? Interesting question that I hope we find the answer to.

That leads to an interesting question. If you could retain your sense of self but be apart of a giant, immortal, incredibly powerful machine, would anyone actually volunteer for that? I think some people would, which is where I think the Reapers came from originally.

[Almostfaceman]

sympathy4saren wrote...

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

The Protheans never qualified for Reaperdom, you can't compare their fate to the fate of reaperfied humans.

I think of it as a more extreme version of the borg. I don't know if death is preferable to becoming a drone or maybe its even effectively the same thing. If you lose your sense of self are you still you? Regardless, not something I would be eager to experience.

This is applicable today...in real life. Even in America. There is internal strife for freedom. One side wants to be left alone and be individually free...another side wants social justice and total equality....controlled from the top. Most won't dare say that directly because that notion would be utterly rejected by the massive majority, but it is still relevant in real life.

Just a friendly heads up the mods will lock a thread that goes into real-world politics.

[Inquisitor Recon]

Submit to reaperdom? Heresy.

An interesting in scenario in ME3 would be Shepard deciding what to do with somebody advocating surrender to the reapers. Does Shepard behave like a Commissar and deliver a swift execution? Try to talk them down? Or something else?

[Almostfaceman]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Lose your sense of self but let some semblance of your species' legacy live on, or have it eradicated completely. How is total extinction desirable in that case?

Is it a matter of pride? I don't want the Reapers to win, but I'm sure they will (from an in-universe perspective). So it is better to make the most of it and accept the destiny thrust upon us than self-destructively eradicating ourselves.

There is no semblence.  There is only Reaper.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Saphra Deden wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Mitochondrial eve is not a religious concept. It's a common scientific one,  I'm sorry I didn't realize it wasn't a commonly known term.

I've heard of it but what is your point? Don't make jokes to avoid the issue. You tried to use the Mongols as a negative example. It didn't work.

Try another one.

Are you saying that the Mongols are more relevant to world culture than anyone else? At one point, they were the strongest. Now, they are less directly relevant than many, many other cultures which seemed gentler or weaker at the time. I am saying that there are many cultures that were minor players when the Mongols were around that are now much, much more culturally significant than the mongols. I'm also saying that there were cultures before the Mongols that are more significant than them. Their temporary world domination does not meant the mongols have more enduring cultural relevance than, say, people from India.

What I am saying is this: a population that is a minority now may become bigger or stronger later on. They may become "bigger and stronger" through exploration, or commerce, or by simply having a large population.

If, when the Mongols were running  things, you had looked at the Mongols versus the English, you would have said the English have no chance of ever being relevant, ever expanding, ever reaching a point where they can make a difference. You'd say that the english were permanently hobbled, and should just give up, and become a goo Reaper.

I am saying that there is virtue in surviving and preserving your culture, even if you are a minority, a small player, an unremarkable backwater. Because in a few centuries, you may have the biggest empire. There were centuries where the English were just surviving and preserving knowledge.

I'm not saying that the weak win. I'm saying that many, many cultures will have a chance to become strong, once the currently dominant cultures eventually fall, as they inevitably will.

[JukeFrog]

I hope Earth get destroyed around the middle of the game. It would add to the gravity of the situation and show that the Reapers aren't playing around.

[Malanek]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Lose your sense of self but let some semblance of your species' legacy live on, or have it eradicated completely. How is total extinction desirable in that case?

Is it a matter of pride? I don't want the Reapers to win, but I'm sure they will (from an in-universe perspective). So it is better to make the most of it and accept the destiny thrust upon us than self-destructively eradicating ourselves.

A "legacy" lives on past a persons death or in this case extinction. And as a reaper it would be a twisted and perverted legacy.

[piemanz]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

That leads to an interesting question. If you could retain your sense of self but be apart of a giant, immortal, incredibly powerful machine, would anyone actually volunteer for that? I think some people would, which is where I think the Reapers came from originally.

It's a good question.Personally i would rather die fighting than be reaperfied.

The thing is theres not much point in having self awareness if you can't do anything with it.As far as we know the reapers are indivuals, sure maybe they are composed of self aware components but where are the dissenting voices?, the ones saying, no, this is wrong, i will not partake in genocide?.

Infact i would rather be dead than be forced to knowingly take part in mass murder.

Modifié par piemanz, 07 avril 2011 - 02:16 .

[Gentleman Moogle]

Again. Show me one reaper that still maintains its own will.

Show me one Reaperized species that is still that species.

Show me one instance where legacies of past civilizations have done anything other than further the Reapers goals.

[Whatever42]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Lose your sense of self but let some semblance of your species' legacy live on, or have it eradicated completely. How is total extinction desirable in that case?

Is it a matter of pride? I don't want the Reapers to win, but I'm sure they will (from an in-universe perspective). So it is better to make the most of it and accept the destiny thrust upon us than self-destructively eradicating ourselves.

Well that entirely depends on the effect of that legacy.

Our legacy in a textbook could have a powerful impact in galactic society if we went down fighting for the galaxy.

On the other hand, our culture and legacy could simply be swallowed up by the Reapers and have no affect on their thoughts or goals.

Which legacy is more powerful?

On the other hand, if the Reapers did change and grow in response to human culture and beliefs, if that was part of their goal then perhaps Reaperdom is not the mose evil fate imaginable (although still a pretty evil one). However, if humanity is simply locked in as slave programs in a Reaper mind, which I anticipate, then its really no legacy at all.

[Whatever42]

piemanz wrote...

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

That leads to an interesting question. If you could retain your sense of self but be apart of a giant, immortal, incredibly powerful machine, would anyone actually volunteer for that? I think some people would, which is where I think the Reapers came from originally.

It's a good question.Personally i would rather die fighting than be reaperfied.

The thing is theres not much point if having self awareness if you can't do anything with it.As far as we know the reapers are indivuals, sure maybe they are composed of self aware components but where are the dissenting voices?, the ones saying, no, this is wrong, i will not partake in genocide?.

Oh, I agree that even with a sense of self-awareness, we'd just be slaves to the Reaper super-mind. The Reapers are unlikely to be like the Geth. But if they *were*, that would be an interesting experience.