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[Inquisitor Recon]

Saphra Deden wrote...
Is it a matter of pride? I don't want the Reapers to win, but I'm sure they will (from an in-universe perspective). So it is better to make the most of it and accept the destiny thrust upon us than self-destructively eradicating ourselves.

Better destruction than bondage.

[Almostfaceman]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...

There is no semblence.  There is only Reaper.

A Reaper which incorporates the "essence" of the species.

That doesn't even mean anything.  There is only Reaper.

[Gentleman Moogle]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...

There is no semblence.  There is only Reaper.

A Reaper which incorporates the "essence" of the species.

A wet fart incorporates the "Essence" of a meatball sandwich. 

You gonna call my blame-it-on-the-dog a meatball sandwich?

[Almostfaceman]

Saphra Deden wrote...

ReconTeam wrote...


Better destruction than bondage.

Why exactly? You can escape from bondage, but you cannot escape from death.

Humanity either lives on with the ability to interact with the universe or it dies.

Killing it off out of a sense of personal pride is... "misguided".

There is no escape - there is only Reaper.

[Almostfaceman]

Gentleman Moogle wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...

There is no semblence.  There is only Reaper.

A Reaper which incorporates the "essence" of the species.

A wet fart incorporates the "Essence" of a meatball sandwich. 

You gonna call my blame-it-on-the-dog a meatball sandwich?

roflmao

[Gentleman Moogle]

Saphra Deden wrote...

ReconTeam wrote...


Better destruction than bondage.

Why exactly? You can escape from bondage, but you cannot escape from death.

Humanity either lives on with the ability to interact with the universe or it dies.

Killing it off out of a sense of personal pride is... "misguided".

I'm not going to let this go. You hinge your entire argument on the idea that "humanity" will still be "humanity" when we're bug guts. 

Prove it. 

Show me one single reaper, out of the hundreds that exist, that still retains the will of its species. 

Show me a reaper that can choose not to reap.

Show me a reaper that can be a force for good. 

Show me how it is the will of that species, and not the will of the Reaper, that affects the galaxy. 

Show me. 

[Whatever42]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...
Are you saying that the Mongols are more relevant to world culture than anyone else? At one point, they were the strongest. Now, they are less directly relevant than many, many other cultures which seemed gentler or weaker at the time. I am saying that there are many cultures that were minor players when the Mongols were around that are now much, much more culturally significant than the mongols. I'm also saying that there were cultures before the Mongols that are more significant than them. Their temporary world domination does not meant the mongols have more enduring cultural relevance than, say, people from India.

What I am saying is this: a population that is a minority now may become bigger or stronger later on. They may become "bigger and stronger" through exploration, or commerce, or by simply having a large population.

If, when the Mongols were running  things, you had looked at the Mongols versus the English, you would have said the English have no chance of ever being relevant, ever expanding, ever reaching a point where they can make a difference. You'd say that the english were permanently hobbled, and should just give up, and become a goo Reaper.

I am saying that there is virtue in surviving and preserving your culture, even if you are a minority, a small player, an unremarkable backwater. Because in a few centuries, you may have the biggest empire. There were centuries where the English were just surviving and preserving knowledge.

I'm not saying that the weak win. I'm saying that many, many cultures will have a chance to become strong, once the currently dominant cultures eventually fall, as they inevitably will.

Culture is tricky. The mongols were a small number with a weak culture and quickly absorbed into the native populations.

On the other hand, the Normans were few but had a strong culture and completey transformed England.

The Vikings were pretty culturally weak compared to the stronger, larger Roman-based mainland European cultures so it was they who were changed.

Meanwhile Rome conquered most of the rest of the world and mostly carried Greek culture with them.

But agreed, if the culture is strong enough and enough people believe in it then it can survive. Although I doubt most of the Earth's cultures would survive. I doubt every group has strong enough representation in the colonies to keep everything alive.

[Inquisitor Recon]

Saphra Deden wrote...
Why exactly? You can escape from bondage, but you cannot escape from death.

Humanity either lives on with the ability to interact with the universe or it dies.

Killing it off out of a sense of personal pride is... "misguided".

Escape? From what? The reapers turn you into one of them, better to die standing your ground than being made into one of those. It is no longer "humanity" existing at that point, not that I am horribly fond of our species to begin with.

But if there is the option to surrender and do just that in ME3? Sure, it adds depth to the game.

[Jagri]

Malanek999 wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Lose your sense of self but let some semblance of your species' legacy live on, or have it eradicated completely. How is total extinction desirable in that case?

Is it a matter of pride? I don't want the Reapers to win, but I'm sure they will (from an in-universe perspective). So it is better to make the most of it and accept the destiny thrust upon us than self-destructively eradicating ourselves.

A "legacy" lives on past a persons death or in this case extinction. And as a reaper it would be a twisted and perverted legacy.

Well not all of human legacy would be lost if morphed into a Reaper. But I think its safe to say what will remain will be examples of the worse things humanity is capable of such as genocide, violence, war, etc. I am sure some people will be proud to leave such a legacy but I find it depressing.

[Gentleman Moogle]

In fact -- and I can't believe this argument is ocurring to me only now -- there is every reason to believe that we as a species will be OVERWRITTEN by the Reapers once we're bug guts. Every instance of reapertech we've seen is designed to overpower an individual's will. Husks? Heavily-reaperized. Sleeper agents? Subtly indoctrinated. Collectors? Over-powered husks.

Every instance. Every shred of evidence we have points to the conclusion that Reapers do not value the 'will' of individual species, but view that will as something to be subverted or overpowered in order to further their own ends.

Husks
Collectors
Keepers
Dr. Whats-her-face
Indoctrinated
Saren
Matriarch Benezia

And in the cases of those last two, they were desperate to be rid of the Reaper's influence. "Like being a prisoner in my own mind", I believe was Benezia's comment. They were glad to die, rather than live as pawns to the Reapers.

[Sajuro]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Malanek999 wrote...

A "legacy" lives on past a persons death or in this case extinction. And as a reaper it would be a twisted and perverted legacy.

We aren't talking about a mere person here. If humanity dies the galaxy dies with us and thus so does our legacy. There will be nobody left to carry it on. I'd rather a perverted legacy than none at all.

Who says the Galaxy would die with humanity? Does the person who says 'either we get the galaxy or no one does' dictate that? The fight against the Reapers isn't about just humanity, and if Humanity must go extinct or lose all of its power to save the rest of the galaxy from the Reapers, then so be it because it isn't just 10 billion but 3 trillion.

[Gentleman Moogle]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Sajuro wrote...
Who says the Galaxy would die with humanity?

I'd make sure it did. Maybe I'd fail, but I'd give it my all.

Ladies and gentlemen, I present the exact moment where Saphra Deden lost all credibility. 

Please please, no flash photography. 

[Legbiter]

Almostfaceman wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Lose your sense of self but let some semblance of your species' legacy live on, or have it eradicated completely. How is total extinction desirable in that case?

Is it a matter of pride? I don't want the Reapers to win, but I'm sure they will (from an in-universe perspective). So it is better to make the most of it and accept the destiny thrust upon us than self-destructively eradicating ourselves.

There is no semblence.  There is only Reaper.

Amen.

[Dave666]

Gentleman Moogle wrote...

In fact -- and I can't believe this argument is ocurring to me only now -- there is every reason to believe that we as a species will be OVERWRITTEN by the Reapers once we're bug guts. Every instance of reapertech we've seen is designed to overpower an individual's will. Husks? Heavily-reaperized. Sleeper agents? Subtly indoctrinated. Collectors? Over-powered husks.

Every instance. Every shred of evidence we have points to the conclusion that Reapers do not value the 'will' of individual species, but view that will as something to be subverted or overpowered in order to further their own ends.

Husks
Collectors
Keepers
Dr. Whats-her-face
Indoctrinated
Saren
Matriarch Benezia

And in the cases of those last two, they were desperate to be rid of the Reaper's influence. "Like being a prisoner in my own mind", I believe was Benezia's comment. They were glad to die, rather than live as pawns to the Reapers.

Another thought, imagine if some part of Humanity DID survive in some form but ended up like Benezia 'Traped in her own mind analogy'.  Trapped in a Reaper for all time screaming. What a lovely fate for Humanity.

[piemanz]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Sajuro wrote...
Who says the Galaxy would die with humanity?

I'd make sure it did. Maybe I'd fail, but I'd give it my all.

Thats a rather selfish attitude though.If aliens came down tomorrow and wanted to kill all humans and only humans , would killing all life on Earth before you go make it any better?.

Modifié par piemanz, 07 avril 2011 - 02:36 .

[jamesp81]

ReconTeam wrote...

Ms. Lovey Dovey wrote...

I don't care what they do! I just want the game to have three themes: DARK, MATURE, and EPIC.

Nay, it must be GRIM-DARKNESS.

Your grimdark can go burn in hell.  Please kindly pollute some other universe with it.

[Gentleman Moogle]

piemanz wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Sajuro wrote...
Who says the Galaxy would die with humanity?

I'd make sure it did. Maybe I'd fail, but I'd give it my all.

Thats a rather selfish attitude though.If aliens came down tomorrow and wanted to kill all humans and only humans , would killing all life on Earth before you go make it any better?.

As long as I get that Verizon b*stard before I go, I'll be happy. 

"Can you hear me NOW!?"

*Blam*

"Okay aliens, you can take me. I'm good."

[Jagri]

jamesp81 wrote...

ReconTeam wrote...

Ms. Lovey Dovey wrote...

I don't care what they do! I just want the game to have three themes: DARK, MATURE, and EPIC.

Nay, it must be GRIM-DARKNESS.

Your grimdark can go burn in hell.  Please kindly pollute some other universe with it.

They got plenty of that in Warhammer 40k! 

[jamesp81]

Saphra Deden wrote...

StarGateGod wrote...

if humanity gave up their homworld in order to stop the reapers from winning the war then i can almost gaurentee you that the rest of the galaxay would make humanity protected and help them get back on there feet

Ahh, I remember when I was a naive 14 year-old too. Good times, good times. Ignorance really is bliss.

While my reply wasn't going to be this harsh, it's not out of line.  It's extremely naive to think that the Council races would do anything special for humanity no matter what we did.  They never have.  We were never anything but a potential problem that they turned into a tool to pacify the unstable Attican Traverse.  Once we are no longer useful as a tool, we will be discarded.  It's truly that simple.

[Sajuro]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Sajuro wrote...
Who says the Galaxy would die with humanity?

I'd make sure it did. Maybe I'd fail, but I'd give it my all.

Don't tell me, you are going to be one of the people whining about how bioware hates renegades if the Aliens show the slightest hesitation in helping your shepard.

[Gentleman Moogle]

Dave666 wrote...

Gentleman Moogle wrote...

In fact -- and I can't believe this argument is ocurring to me only now -- there is every reason to believe that we as a species will be OVERWRITTEN by the Reapers once we're bug guts. Every instance of reapertech we've seen is designed to overpower an individual's will. Husks? Heavily-reaperized. Sleeper agents? Subtly indoctrinated. Collectors? Over-powered husks.

Every instance. Every shred of evidence we have points to the conclusion that Reapers do not value the 'will' of individual species, but view that will as something to be subverted or overpowered in order to further their own ends.

Husks
Collectors
Keepers
Dr. Whats-her-face
Indoctrinated
Saren
Matriarch Benezia

And in the cases of those last two, they were desperate to be rid of the Reaper's influence. "Like being a prisoner in my own mind", I believe was Benezia's comment. They were glad to die, rather than live as pawns to the Reapers.

Another thought, imagine if some part of Humanity DID survive in some form but ended up like Benezia 'Traped in her own mind analogy'.  Trapped in a Reaper for all time screaming. What a lovely fate for Humanity.

That's actually pretty much what I expect Reapers to be like. One overbearing intelligence that subsists on the genetic "essence" of a species, all the while the individual consciousnesses of that species are still aware, still 'alive'... But in utter and constant torment because, while they exist, they do not 'live'. 

It would be a living death. Aware, but impotent. Horrified, yet powerless. Completely and totally at the mercy of an alien mind, forced to watch as we give it the power to enact on others what was enacted on us. 

I would sooner eat a gun.

[jamesp81]

ReconTeam wrote...

I'd say more than four people, but there are likely at least a billion humans in colonies and such off-world anyway. There will eventually be some wars and conflicts but I would imagine all of the races would be rebuilding for at least a decade after the reapers tried to exterminate all life in the galaxy. Enough time for humanity to get back on it's feet somewhat.

If somehow only humanity suffers billions of losses and we lose most of our fleet in the process too, then we are in a pretty bad position. But a campaign to exterminate humanity? Even for the Council it seems unlikely.

#1.  No, there ARE NOT a billion humans on other colonies.  Absolutely, 100% not that many.  Earth's three most populous, oldest colonies amount to 13.5 million.  I would be surprised if Earth's colonial population is greater than 100 million.  I very much doubt it's even 50 million.

#2.  The Council isn't going to exterminate what remains of humanity after Earth is gone.  It's the Batarians and various pirate / raider groups and rogue governments of the Terminus systems that will do it.  And when the few remaining colonies are attacked, the Council will remind us that they cannot get involved in a "purely human matter".