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[Dave666]

Gentleman Moogle wrote...

Dave666 wrote...

Gentleman Moogle wrote...

In fact -- and I can't believe this argument is ocurring to me only now -- there is every reason to believe that we as a species will be OVERWRITTEN by the Reapers once we're bug guts. Every instance of reapertech we've seen is designed to overpower an individual's will. Husks? Heavily-reaperized. Sleeper agents? Subtly indoctrinated. Collectors? Over-powered husks.

Every instance. Every shred of evidence we have points to the conclusion that Reapers do not value the 'will' of individual species, but view that will as something to be subverted or overpowered in order to further their own ends.

Husks
Collectors
Keepers
Dr. Whats-her-face
Indoctrinated
Saren
Matriarch Benezia

And in the cases of those last two, they were desperate to be rid of the Reaper's influence. "Like being a prisoner in my own mind", I believe was Benezia's comment. They were glad to die, rather than live as pawns to the Reapers.

Another thought, imagine if some part of Humanity DID survive in some form but ended up like Benezia 'Traped in her own mind analogy'.  Trapped in a Reaper for all time screaming. What a lovely fate for Humanity.

That's actually pretty much what I expect Reapers to be like. One overbearing intelligence that subsists on the genetic "essence" of a species, all the while the individual consciousnesses of that species are still aware, still 'alive'... But in utter and constant torment because, while they exist, they do not 'live'. 

It would be a living death. Aware, but impotent. Horrified, yet powerless. Completely and totally at the mercy of an alien mind, forced to watch as we give it the power to enact on others what was enacted on us. 

I would sooner eat a gun.

Precicely.  Some 'Salvation'.

[piemanz]

Saphra Deden wrote...

piemanz wrote...

Thats a rather selfish attitude though.If aliens came down tomorrow and wanted to kill all humans and only humans , would killing all life on Earth before you go make it any better?.

It just might. It would rob them of their victory, in a sense. That depends on what they're after.

No need to be rude about it though. I strive to be a better person and not to be selfish.

Sorry i wasn't meant to be rude.

It just seems like saying, "if i'm going to die, you're sure as hell going to too" to people or species that are not necessarily your enemys.

Modifié par piemanz, 07 avril 2011 - 02:46 .

[Sajuro]

Saphra Deden wrote...

piemanz wrote...

Thats a rather selfish attitude though.If aliens came down tomorrow and wanted to kill all humans and only humans , would killing all life on Earth before you go make it any better?.

It just might. It would rob them of their victory, in a sense. That depends on what they're after.

No need to be rude about it though. I strive to be a better person and not to be selfish.

says the person who says 'either humans win or everyone dies!'

[Malanek]

jamesp81 wrote...
#1.  No, there ARE NOT a billion humans on other colonies.  Absolutely, 100% not that many.  Earth's three most populous, oldest colonies amount to 13.5 million.  I would be surprised if Earth's colonial population is greater than 100 million.  I very much doubt it's even 50 million.

Where do you get that information from? Demeter is the oldest extrasolar colony but I can't seem to find the population listed anywhere. Joab is listed as having a population of 22.5 million.

[jamesp81]

ReconTeam wrote...

Legbiter wrote...
No.

The largest human colonies all put together amount to 0.12% of humanity.

I don't recall the codex saying that.

It's called Math.  And it works.

The Prothean ruins on Mars were discovered in 2148.

Bekenstein was founded in 2158 and has a population of 5.4 million.  It's among humanity's older colonies.

Terra Nova was founded in 2152, and was humanity's second colony established outside the solar system.  It's current population is 4.4 million.

Eden Prime was founded in 2152, and was one of humanity's first extra solar colonies.  It's current population is 3.7 million.

Now, unless my Windows calculator is malfunctioning, 5.4 + 4.4 + 3.7 = 13.5.  Therefore, the Codex does indeed tell us that the populations of three of Earth's very oldest colonies is 13.5 million combined.  There is no way in hell that there are more than 100 million humans living on planets other than Earth, and there for damned sure aren't "billions" in the galaxy at large.  The only way there could be is by a massive retcon on BioWare's part.

So, when people like me in this thread are saying the destruction of Earth would result in the death of 98 to 99 percent of the human population, it is NOT an exaggeration.

[jamesp81]

Malanek999 wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...
#1.  No, there ARE NOT a billion humans on other colonies.  Absolutely, 100% not that many.  Earth's three most populous, oldest colonies amount to 13.5 million.  I would be surprised if Earth's colonial population is greater than 100 million.  I very much doubt it's even 50 million.

Where do you get that information from? Demeter is the oldest extrasolar colony but I can't seem to find the population listed anywhere. Joab is listed as having a population of 22.5 million.

Adding in Joab raises population on large extrasolar colonies to 36 million.  So we're up to 0.31% of the human population on colony worlds.

I typed the word "Colony" in the Mass Effect wikia and looked at almost every damned search result and noted human colonies with populations greater than 500,00.

[jamesp81]

Saphra Deden wrote...

ReconTeam wrote...

Three colonies out of an undetermined number?

I'll lower my estimate to at least 200 million people, still not the doom of humanity.

Let me help you with your math.

Terra Nova is Earth's most populous colony and it has a population of 4.4 million as of 2183. (Bekenstein has just managed to eclipse it as of 2185)

So for the sake of argument lets assume that EVERY human colony has a population of 4.4 million.

We know there are dozens of human colonies but are never given a specific number.

So let's assume 50.

That's 220 million, quite a bit lower than your initial estimate. However once again that assumes that every colony has a population of 4.4 million. The fact is Terra Nova stands out for its large population and booming economy. Bekenstein comes close. The other colonies have populations quite a bit smaller. Number only 1 or 2 million or even just in the tens or hundreds of thousands.

The total population is thus going to be quite a bit less than 220 million.

For reference:

Freedom's Progress: 912,810 (now zero)

Horizon: 654,930

Proteus: 12,470

Feros: 1,200 (est, but may also now be zero)

Chasca: 150 (likely a little bigger now)


So clearly Eden Prime (3.7 million), Terra Nova, and Bekenstein aren't representative of the average population of our colonies. They are the biggest. It's entirely possible that half of all human colonists in the galaxy live on those three (also might include Elysium and Shanxi)

Horizon lost about 1/3 of its colonists in the Collector attack.  I'm not sure if the current population number reflects that or not.

[jamesp81]

StarGateGod wrote...

Markinator_123 wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

StarGateGod wrote...

if humanity gave up their homworld in order to stop the reapers from winning the war then i can almost gaurentee you that the rest of the galaxay would make humanity protected and help them get back on there feet

Ahh, I remember when I was a naive 14 year-old too. Good times, good times. Ignorance really is bliss.

Ah yes, utopian ideals that claim that all races will sing kumbaya together forever and ever. We have dismissed claim.

Saphra Deden does it really surprise you that some people on this board are quite naive and blinded by their utopian beliefs. I am sorry people but the races will NEVER get along kumbaya style (that is if Bioware wants to keep this galaxy realistic that is). If the other races help humanity (and that is a big IF), it will only be for their benefit. Foreign policy is based on SELF-INTEREST.

i highly disagree, giving your homeworld to protect a galactic threat will unite the galaxy

No, it will leave your colonies without a power base to field a military to defend them.  Then when raiders start raping and pillaging, the Council will remind you that they "cannot become involved in purely human affairs."

[Gentleman Moogle]

jamesp81 wrote...

ReconTeam wrote...

Legbiter wrote...
No.

The largest human colonies all put together amount to 0.12% of humanity.

I don't recall the codex saying that.

It's called Math.  And it works.

The Prothean ruins on Mars were discovered in 2148.

Bekenstein was founded in 2158 and has a population of 5.4 million.  It's among humanity's older colonies.

Terra Nova was founded in 2152, and was humanity's second colony established outside the solar system.  It's current population is 4.4 million.

Eden Prime was founded in 2152, and was one of humanity's first extra solar colonies.  It's current population is 3.7 million.

Now, unless my Windows calculator is malfunctioning, 5.4 + 4.4 + 3.7 = 13.5.  Therefore, the Codex does indeed tell us that the populations of three of Earth's very oldest colonies is 13.5 million combined.  There is no way in hell that there are more than 100 million humans living on planets other than Earth, and there for damned sure aren't "billions" in the galaxy at large.  The only way there could be is by a massive retcon on BioWare's part.

So, when people like me in this thread are saying the destruction of Earth would result in the death of 98 to 99 percent of the human population, it is NOT an exaggeration.

You will notice, however, that of the three oldest, their numbers steadily increase the younger they get. The oldest colony has the fewest colonists, while the newer colony has the most. This is not conclusive, of course, but it does suggest that "age of the colony" does not necessarily coincide with "Population of the Colony." One can assume, however, that other colonies established around that time will have similar populations, and some established later may actually have more, thanks to technological advances that make colonization more viable.

Plus, one can assume large human populations on multi-species worlds like Noveria or Illum, as well as a decent potential population chunk in the navy on ship-bound vessels. 

[Malanek]

jamesp81 wrote...

It's called Math.  And it works.

The Prothean ruins on Mars were discovered in 2148.

Bekenstein was founded in 2158 and has a population of 5.4 million.  It's among humanity's older colonies.

Terra Nova was founded in 2152, and was humanity's second colony established outside the solar system.  It's current population is 4.4 million.

Eden Prime was founded in 2152, and was one of humanity's first extra solar colonies.  It's current population is 3.7 million.

Now, unless my Windows calculator is malfunctioning, 5.4 + 4.4 + 3.7 = 13.5.  Therefore, the Codex does indeed tell us that the populations of three of Earth's very oldest colonies is 13.5 million combined.  There is no way in hell that there are more than 100 million humans living on planets other than Earth, and there for damned sure aren't "billions" in the galaxy at large.  The only way there could be is by a massive retcon on BioWare's part.

So, when people like me in this thread are saying the destruction of Earth would result in the death of 98 to 99 percent of the human population, it is NOT an exaggeration.

Maths works, but this isn't maths. You have failed to add in x, y, z etc and because you don't have the information you just ignore them. I repeat, what is the population for Demeter which is actually the oldest extrasolar colony? What is the population for Amaterasu, Akuze, Anhur, Cuervo, Cyrene, Elysium, Watson etc etc. How many humans live on Omega or other non human worlds?

[Gentleman Moogle]

Saphra Deden wrote...

piemanz wrote...

It just seems like saying, "if i'm going to die, you're sure as hell going to too" to people or species that are not necessarily your enemys.

They're rivals, selfish rivals. That's just what organisms are in relation to one another. We can better motivate them to succeed in this war if they understand that in no uncertain terms humanity losing will be as bad as the Reapers winning.

Do you realize how hard you're making it for me NOT to enact Godwin's Law here?

Humanity is not some Glorious Master Race. We're the newcomers to this galactic society. We don't do things "better" than everyone else, we just do things "different" from everyone else. 

You're essentially talking like a bully in a sandbox. "Either you play it my way, or NO ONE gets to play!"

Oh, and show me a Reaper that still retains the will of its own race (Thought I was gonna forget about that, didn't ya?)

[Dave666]

Gentleman Moogle wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

piemanz wrote...

It just seems like saying, "if i'm going to die, you're sure as hell going to too" to people or species that are not necessarily your enemys.

They're rivals, selfish rivals. That's just what organisms are in relation to one another. We can better motivate them to succeed in this war if they understand that in no uncertain terms humanity losing will be as bad as the Reapers winning.

Do you realize how hard you're making it for me NOT to enact Godwin's Law here?

Humanity is not some Glorious Master Race. We're the newcomers to this galactic society. We don't do things "better" than everyone else, we just do things "different" from everyone else. 

You're essentially talking like a bully in a sandbox. "Either you play it my way, or NO ONE gets to play!"

Oh, and show me a Reaper that still retains the will of its own race (Thought I was gonna forget about that, didn't ya?)

...and aparently Paragon's make leaps of faith...

[Torhagen]

That could be a possible End for ME3 hopefully it will have multiple Endings and a decent Story and plot without retcons

[Dave666]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Gentleman Moogle wrote...

You're essentially talking like a bully in a sandbox. "Either you play it my way, or NO ONE gets to play!"

Oh, and show me a Reaper that still retains the will of its own race (Thought I was gonna forget about that, didn't ya?)

Sovereign, Harbringer. What makes you say they aren't enacting their own free will? Sovereing even tells us each Reaper is a nation unto itself.

For all we know Sovereign was an AI like the Geth just more advanced.  Instead of multiple programs it has multiple AI's and the organic part is nothing more than a gel that transmits electrical signals between each AI.

[piemanz]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Gentleman Moogle wrote...

You're essentially talking like a bully in a sandbox. "Either you play it my way, or NO ONE gets to play!"

Oh, and show me a Reaper that still retains the will of its own race (Thought I was gonna forget about that, didn't ya?)

Sovereign, Harbringer. What makes you say they aren't enacting their own free will? Sovereing even tells us each Reaper is a nation unto itself.

The fact they all seem to have the exact same agenda is a good start.

Edit: The argument isn't that the reapers have free will it's wether the individuals inside have any free will thats important.

Modifié par piemanz, 07 avril 2011 - 03:11 .

[jamesp81]

ReconTeam wrote...

Legbiter wrote...
You're a ruthless renegade who cares about no one!

As a renegade I take offense at this statement. I care about forging a stronger humanity much like TIM does.

And that includes blowing up Earth?

[CulturalGeekGirl]

jamesp81 wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

StarGateGod wrote...

if humanity gave up their homworld in order to stop the reapers from winning the war then i can almost gaurentee you that the rest of the galaxay would make humanity protected and help them get back on there feet

Ahh, I remember when I was a naive 14 year-old too. Good times, good times. Ignorance really is bliss.

While my reply wasn't going to be this harsh, it's not out of line.  It's extremely naive to think that the Council races would do anything special for humanity no matter what we did.  They never have.  We were never anything but a potential problem that they turned into a tool to pacify the unstable Attican Traverse.  Once we are no longer useful as a tool, we will be discarded.  It's truly that simple.

Ok, ONE thing -

The Council has a history of trying to not let species go extinct.

Look at the Yahg. They are a race of murder monsters. Murdering you is their default response to any contact. When the council discovered their planet was full of murder monsters, they didn't nuke it. They didn't even say "hey Batarians/Krogan/Turians, come kill these murder monsters for us!" They said "Ok. This race has a right to exist. Just... nobody ever go here, and we'll make sure they don't leave."

I see no reason why humanity should be treated as worse than the Yahg.  I think there's significant evidence that the Citadel sees us as "a race that is less reasonable than the Turians, but more reasonable than the Krogan."  Right now anyone could wipe out the Krogan. Nobody does, because what is the point? And the Salarians actually believe the Krogan may someday develop to the point where they're truly ready to be part of the galactic community. I don't see any evidence that they would view us as worse than a race who almost killed them all.

But if you want to believe that humanity is more hated than the Krogan, less respected than the Yahg, and basically everyone's least favoite drunk uncle, I can do nothing more than show you this past evidence. Maybe because I'm a paragon, everyone hides their blank hatred. I'm just pointing out that every time the Citadel has encountered a less-privledged species, as long as that species wasn't full of murder monsters, (and even, in the case of the Krogan, despite the fact that the species is full of murder monsters), they have tried to preserve that race.