661 réponses à ce sujet

[jamesp81]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...

Malanek999 wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Even with only 10 million people breeding at post-WWII levels, using no technology developed after 1985, we get back to 6.8 billion in 350 years, using just one world.

This is not unreasonable, and nobody has contradicted these figures yet. They just like to ignore them. We came to this party 1300 years late... another few centuries is just even more fashionable.

Because they don't want to see their fragile arguments shredded.

Dude, don't ever presume to speak for me or anyone else.  Like - ever.  Thanks.

@CulturalGeekGirl - my position is that it is far better to not have to go through this - keep Earth & its population.  Earth is taking its first steps - its baby steps - onto the galactic stage.  Things are very fragile at this point.

What the potential is for human birth rates is not the same as what will happen.  If there's a war with the Reapers, and Earth and its population are destroyed - humans will be fighting for their survival.  If the Terminus systems don't get involved then they'll attack - not just humans but the forces weakened by the Reaper battle.  (this is a strong argument for gathering as many allies as possible - especially unconventional choices like the rachni and the geth)  Humans could very well lose their independence for a time and be scattered.  They could form competeting colonies, there could be in-fighting amongst the humans and amongst other species. It's just not a pretty situation and I think it should be avoided.  Humanity's survival is precarious if we lose Earth.

Face: when I snap at people, which I am trying hard not to do, I am not snapping at you. I agree that earth dying is bad. Where we disagree is simply on the value of alliances and the nature of human resilience.

I will agree that humanity's chances go down if they lose earth. But I've read too much scifi to lose all faith in human resilience, especially in a universe where >50% of aliens seem to be at least slightly reasonable.

I don't entirely disagree. I think it's POSSIBLE  that humanity could recover, but the kimchee would be really deep for a long time.  I'd prefer any additional content in the ME universe not set against the backdrop, speaking for myself.

[jamesp81]

Gentleman Moogle wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

I'm not the person who said I'd kill billions of people!

If that's true then why do you support blowing up the Earth?

Also, we've been over this. You asked a strange question concerning a strange situation and got an equally odd answer considering the circumstances. If we are in a position where it looks like grinding up billions of people is a reasonable course of action then the situation must be an extreme one.

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

All I am saying is this: if earth does fall, unavoidably (and there is no more guarantee that a renegade action will save earth than a paragon one... in that they are pretty much both guaranteed to have a similar cumulative effect, because this is Mass Effect) then we can recover. We are not "out."

We either come out of this on top or nobody comes out of it at all. I won't throw away all of our potential for greatness just to save a bunch of alien ingrates. If we can't save the Earth the logical course of action is to submit to the Reapers. We'll live on, just in a different form.

How soon we forget. 

I would sooner die, and my friends and family with me, than to submit to some machine-god who intends to change us into one of them for all eternity, and either force us or change our thinking so much so that we continue perpetrating the same fate on other races. 

If I may quote a man who has been so often quoted, and who can sum it up so much better than I:

"What is it that gentlemen wish? What would they have? Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!"

From your keyboard to God's ears.

[piemanz]

Saphra Deden wrote...

piemanz wrote...

Edit: The argument isn't that the reapers have free will it's wether the individuals inside have any free will thats important.

I doubt they do, but that is an acceptable sacrifice if it keeps the species as a whole alive, even if it is a twisted, almost unrecognizable form.

Just gonna have to agree to disagree with you on this one.

[Almostfaceman]

Saphra Deden wrote...

piemanz wrote...

Edit: The argument isn't that the reapers have free will it's wether the individuals inside have any free will thats important.

I doubt they do, but that is an acceptable sacrifice if it keeps the species as a whole alive, even if it is a twisted, almost unrecognizable form.

Organic life is nothing but a genetic mutation, an accident.  We are eternal.  The pinnacle of evolution and existence.  Before us, you are nothing.  Your existence is irrelevent.

[jamesp81]

Gentleman Moogle wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

I will agree that humanity's chances go down if they lose earth. But I've read too much scifi to lose all faith in human resilience, especially in a universe where >50% of aliens seem to be at least slightly reasonable.

Sci-fi is fiction. Thus "fi" part. It tends to be written as often by childish idealists like yourself as it is by more practical people like me.

The biggest, meanest, toughest dog wins.

Tell that to the Monguls! 

Hell, tell that to the Spartans. 

Hey, the Spartans may have lost in the end, but at the Battle of the Thermopylae they all died deaths that they, by God, could be DAMNED proud of.

[jamesp81]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

I'm not the person who said I'd kill billions of people!

If that's true then why do you support blowing up the Earth?

I expliclty do not. I have said so several times in this thread! I never stop saying it! I said it twice in the past five pages! 

Here is how I am approaching this thread: assume the earth is destroyed. What now? It is a fun question. I'm assuming that nothing I could have done, Paragon or Renegade, could possibly have saved the earth. If that is the case, then giving up and saying "Well, time to die out quietly!" seems immensely lazy.

That is the premise of this thread: that is the central thesis we are all supposed to be working off of - if the earth WERE destroyed, what would we do?

Saphra Deden wrote...
We either come out of this on top or nobody comes out of it at all. I won't throw away all of our potential for greatness just to save a bunch of alien ingrates. If we can't save the Earth the logical course of action is to submit to the Reapers. We'll live on, just in a different form.

This is where we disagree. I believe that humanity is strong enough, great enough, relevant enough to come back from a near defeat. You think we'd be better off surrendering and becoming slave monsters.

Hey, even if Earth gets wacked in ME3, I'm not a give up type.  No surrender and no quarter to thugs that might take advantage.of the situation.  Live Free or Die.

[jamesp81]

Almostfaceman wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Tell that to the Monguls! 

You mean the people who conquered half the globe? If you're gonna quote history at me at least take the time to learn it.

Almostfaceman wrote...

Ewwww.  Eh, I'd rather fall on my
sword than become a Reaper.  Then again I kinda agree with the samurai
that it's the ultimate dishonor to face defeat in battle on the enemies
terms.

Gentleman Moogle wrote...

I would sooner die, and my friends and family with me, than to submit to some machine-god...

You
see, this kind of self-centered thinking is what I'm fighting against.
This isn't about you, this is about the human species. For the
greater good individuals must be sacrificed.

Speaking of "self" it becomes painfully obvious looking at the Collectors that after the Reapers were done with them they lost all sense of self.

Killing off the last of the Collectors was doing them a huge favor, IMO.

[piemanz]

Almostfaceman wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

piemanz wrote...

Edit: The argument isn't that the reapers have free will it's wether the individuals inside have any free will thats important.

I doubt they do, but that is an acceptable sacrifice if it keeps the species as a whole alive, even if it is a twisted, almost unrecognizable form.

Organic life is nothing but a genetic mutation, an accident.  We are eternal.  The pinnacle of evolution and existence.  Before us, you are nothing.  Your existence is irrelevent.

This exchange is over....




*Did your windows smash?*

Modifié par piemanz, 07 avril 2011 - 03:23 .

[Almostfaceman]

piemanz wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

piemanz wrote...

Edit: The argument isn't that the reapers have free will it's wether the individuals inside have any free will thats important.

I doubt they do, but that is an acceptable sacrifice if it keeps the species as a whole alive, even if it is a twisted, almost unrecognizable form.

Organic life is nothing but a genetic mutation, an accident.  We are eternal.  The pinnacle of evolution and existence.  Before us, you are nothing.  Your existence is irrelevent.

This exchange is over....




*Did you're windows smash?*

Yes... golly gee wiz.

[Gentleman Moogle]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Gentleman Moogle wrote...

You're essentially talking like a bully in a sandbox. "Either you play it my way, or NO ONE gets to play!"

Oh, and show me a Reaper that still retains the will of its own race (Thought I was gonna forget about that, didn't ya?)

Sovereign, Harbringer. What makes you say they aren't enacting their own free will? Sovereing even tells us each Reaper is a nation unto itself.

Sovreign and Harbinger are acting... In accordance with Reaper doctrine. 

Show me a Reaper that doesn't, or won't. 

Show me a reaper containing a species that fought against it that still wishes to fight against the Reapers. 

Or did all those reapers we see in the photographs consist of species that willingly set their heads down on the guillotine. 

Again, I have evidence. Every reaper device we've seen over-writes free will and dominates the mind of the subject. Saren and Benezia claim it's like being trapped in our own minds. The husks don't even get that, they're just mindless shambling automatons. 

Everything we've seen points to the conclusion that "Reapers Control." I've given examples, and I can get more. 

All you seem to have is 'Oh, they'll let us do what we want. I'm sure of it."

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Man, now I can't decide how I'd feel if Casper, the friendly Reaper shows up.

"Pssst, organics. I'm on your side! We can defeat the rest of the Reapers together! Then I will be the head Reaper. Don't worry, I'll only eat races you don't like. Like the Batarians! Deal?"

[jamesp81]

Sajuro wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...

Um, you have no proof that we'll become a "collective conciousness" within a Reaper.  All we have in that regard is "their word".  And the Collectors - according to Mordin - aren't even concious - they're husks run by Reaper tech.

Yes, I'll still be falling on my sword.

We know from Legon and Sovereign what Reapers are. We know from the Collector base that the Reapes wish to make us into one. They do not plan to make us merely into Collectors.

Is becoming a giant death machine really any better? The reapers are a dead end in terms of evolution, culture, technology. We don't know anything about the races that had been 'uplifted' other than the fact that they now get to participate in the galactic cycle of genocide.
Sorry, but if it was a choice between being wiped out and 'surviving' as Reapers I would rather Humanity be wiped out.

Amen.  If those were my options, I would seek a death in battle against them such that I could then go before my God without hanging my head in shame.

[Almostfaceman]

Saphra Deden wrote...

 However I think it is better than being completely killed off.

You exist because we allow it.  And you will end because we demand it.

[jamesp81]

ReconTeam wrote...

Submit to reaperdom? Heresy.

An interesting in scenario in ME3 would be Shepard deciding what to do with somebody advocating surrender to the reapers. Does Shepard behave like a Commissar and deliver a swift execution? Try to talk them down? Or something else?

Renegade Interrupt.  Break his neck and throw him out a window

[Gentleman Moogle]

Saphra Deden wrote...

They will let us do what we want in the sense that we'll want to do what they want to do. Perhaps ascension brings understanding through communion? Unity doesn't mean they don't have free will. It might just mean they are all rational beings and that they consequently agree on the most sensible course of action.

I also think I'm not making myself very clear to you.

I don't think becoming a Reaper is ideal for humanity. It isn't something I want. However I think it is better than being completely killed off.

And I'm making the point that becoming a Reaper is the same thing as species-wide death. We cease to be 'human'. We will no longer have the thoughts, wishes and desires that made us who we are. We will no longer be who we were. We will cease to exist and become something completely different. 

There will BE no 'human.' Everything that was 'human' is dead and gone, burned away by the reaperfication. 

Again, you speak in 'maybes' and 'perhaps's. I can point to solid evidence that reapers overwrite the minds of those who serve them. They force them to become something else. Saren stopped being "Saren" when Sovreign turned him. Benezia stopped being "Benezia" when she entered Sovreign's indoctrination. 

This is not 'become a reaper and the human race will survive.'

This is 'become a reaper and become a reaper.' 

There will be no more "human". None. Not a shred. Not a single solitary ounce. Because one cannot be "human" and be "reaper". The two are mutually exclusive. 

[jamesp81]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Lose your sense of self but let some semblance of your species' legacy live on, or have it eradicated completely. How is total extinction desirable in that case?

Is it a matter of pride? I don't want the Reapers to win, but I'm sure they will (from an in-universe perspective). So it is better to make the most of it and accept the destiny thrust upon us than self-destructively eradicating ourselves.

I would prefer my legacy to be similar to that of the 300 Spartans at Thermopylae:

Stranger, go tell the Spartans
That we lie here
True, even to the death
To our Spartan way of life

[Gentleman Moogle]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Man, now I can't decide how I'd feel if Casper, the friendly Reaper shows up.

"Pssst, organics. I'm on your side! We can defeat the rest of the Reapers together! Then I will be the head Reaper. Don't worry, I'll only eat races you don't like. Like the Batarians! Deal?"

Lure it in close, then kill it, gut it, and use it as an infiltration ship to get us close enough to Harby for a small strike team to bord him and blow him de f*ck up. 

[Almostfaceman]

Gentleman Moogle wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

They will let us do what we want in the sense that we'll want to do what they want to do. Perhaps ascension brings understanding through communion? Unity doesn't mean they don't have free will. It might just mean they are all rational beings and that they consequently agree on the most sensible course of action.

I also think I'm not making myself very clear to you.

I don't think becoming a Reaper is ideal for humanity. It isn't something I want. However I think it is better than being completely killed off.

And I'm making the point that becoming a Reaper is the same thing as species-wide death. We cease to be 'human'. We will no longer have the thoughts, wishes and desires that made us who we are. We will no longer be who we were. We will cease to exist and become something completely different. 

There will BE no 'human.' Everything that was 'human' is dead and gone, burned away by the reaperfication. 

Again, you speak in 'maybes' and 'perhaps's. I can point to solid evidence that reapers overwrite the minds of those who serve them. They force them to become something else. Saren stopped being "Saren" when Sovreign turned him. Benezia stopped being "Benezia" when she entered Sovreign's indoctrination. 

This is not 'become a reaper and the human race will survive.'

This is 'become a reaper and become a reaper.' 

There will be no more "human". None. Not a shred. Not a single solitary ounce. Because one cannot be "human" and be "reaper". The two are mutually exclusive. 

Correct.

We are your salvation through destruction.
We have no beginning.  We have no end.  We are infinite.
You exist because we allow it.  And you will end because we demand it.

[piemanz]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Man, now I can't decide how I'd feel if Casper, the friendly Reaper shows up.

"Pssst, organics. I'm on your side! We can defeat the rest of the Reapers together! Then I will be the head Reaper. Don't worry, I'll only eat races you don't like. Like the Batarians! Deal?"

I would be sold at "batarians".

[Kaiser Shepard]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Lose your sense of self but let some semblance of your species' legacy live on, or have it eradicated completely. How is total extinction desirable in that case?

Is it a matter of pride? I don't want the Reapers to win, but I'm sure they will (from an in-universe perspective). So it is better to make the most of it and accept the destiny thrust upon us than self-destructively eradicating ourselves.

You might call it pride, but I want our legacy to be defiance. If we surrender, we simply become a space ark of our own (although I use that last word loosely), losing our free will and becoming what we were intended to become from the start. With defiance, however, we make our own legacy: we either win, or lose in such a manner that the Reapers would consider this cycle a loss.

Assuming there is one new Reaper made each successful cycle, or one from every viable species in a cycle, Sovereign was already a major victory on its own. As far as we know, such a victory has only been attained once before. So far, we have:
 
-A backdoor into the Citadel and full access to its controls.
-Defeated one Reaper ourselves and adapted the technology we managed to salvage.
-Boarded a Reaper, thus knowing what they look like inside, just in case.
-Destroyed or captured the Collector Base, in either case 'adapting' at least some of the tech inside.
-A Reaper IFF that can be 'copied', thus having the strategic advantage of being able to access the area beyond Omega-4.
-Prevented the 'current' Reaper from being completed.
-'Salvaged' the Klendagon weapon (Omega?).

From a non-all knowing in-game perspective it may not seem enough to secure a total victory, but we're damn sure going to give them hell.

[Almostfaceman]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Gentleman Moogle wrote...

And I'm making the point that becoming a Reaper is the same thing as species-wide death. We cease to be 'human'. We will no longer have the thoughts, wishes and desires that made us who we are. We will no longer be who we were. We will cease to exist and become something completely different.

Does a caterpillar die when it becomes a butterfly? Try thinking of it as a metamorphasis into a new being. A superior being.

There is a realm of existence so far beyond your own you cannot even imagine it.  I am beyond your comprehension.