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[Almostfaceman]

ReconTeam wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...
Military assets do not exist in a vacuum - they need an infrastructure.  The vast majority of that infrastructure disappears if Earth's population is gone.  Are you- reading - the other posts in this thread?  Or do you and I need to just echo stuff that's already being said here?

We've seen in various side-missions that said infrastructure exists on other planets. Do you really think all of the major shipyards and such are on earth? Logistically that is problematic when you need to send so many resouirces back there. And why exactly are the other races going to go off on an extermination campaign again?

Just read what I'm saying to other people - it already covers this.

[Almostfaceman]

Nyoka wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...
If humanity is not worth it, neither are the aliens.  They aren't any better or worse.  Following your logic, we should let the aliens all be killed down to almost nothing as well.

Earth, not humanity. I've already said that I'd rather have a fresh start for humanity in the Exodus cluster, and hope for the best.

Besides, we don't conduct ourselves according to what someone else does, a moral decision should always be based on what we ourselves are and do.

Humanity needs a spiritual evolution - a fundamental change towards a more perfect existence - it is an internal journey - it has nothing to do whatsoever with geography.  Destroying Earth is irrelevent in this regard.

[Malanek]

Almostfaceman wrote...
Why in the case of the batarians do you keep insisting that I'm saying that they will wipe us out?  I've said repeatedly they'll enslave us.  Address that please and quit it with "I don't think the batarians will commitgenocide" bit - it's not relevent to the discusion you and I are having.

Enslavement just isn't practical. They cannot land and enslave an entire colony because they don't have the resources for this.

Almostfaceman wrote...
Galactic investments for the most part will evaporate - along with the governments/corporations/humans on Earth that evaporate.  Person A's investments do not continue to exist is Person A is dead and all Person A's inheritors are dead.

Hit and run tactics require an infrastructure that no longer exists and that will be under attack by enemies like the batarians.

Investments do not evaporate once a person dies.

Almostfaceman wrote...
With regards to "galatic law" - the batarians are not part of the council - they are a law unto themselves.  No galactic law kept the batarians and humans from fighting in the past.

Have humans and batarians ever officially been at war? I suspect the galactic law and other species have done a lot more than you think. I repeat, the council stepped in and stopped the first contact war. Why would this be any different?

Almostfaceman wrote...
If fragments of the human race are scattered amongst friendly species territory - WHY are they not an endangered species?

An endangered species is a species at risk of extinction. I'm not prepared to say how many humans this would have to go down to to become endangered, but with scientifically advanced medical knowledge it would be really, really low.

Almostfaceman wrote...
I say they are endangered since now they're competing for galactic resources from a greatly weakened position.  Any number thing could go wrong and with a greatly reduced population it just makes it harder for humanity to bounce back.

I don't even know how to reply to that. I don't think you know what being an endangered species means.

[jamesp81]

Malanek999 wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...

Malanek999 wrote...

And I maintain that the Bataraians would not bombard a garden planet populated by humans even if they wanted to. They would lose too much goodwill with the other, strategically superior, races.

Didn't play Bring Down the Sky DLC did you?

The Batarians attempted just that against Terra Nova.  They set an asteroid on a collision course with the planet that would have caused an Extinction Level Event.  Nothing would've survived the impact, not even wildlife.

They have already demonstrated both a willingness and an ability to launch genocidal attacks on humanity.

That was a terrorist organisation not a government arm of the Batarians. Also I suspect saying nothing would've survived impact is not that accurate. Where did you get that from?

It's pretty clear that would be the result given the size of that asteroid.

The asteroid that extincted the dinosaurs was estimated to have been between 6km and 10km in diameter.  The force of the impact released energy equal 100 million megatons, which is orders of magnitude more power than every nuclear weapon every built combined.

Now, just load up Bring Down the Sky, land on the asteroid in the Mako, and tell me if you think it's 6km in diameter.  I'm pretty certain it's more.  Also, one of the engineers on that asteroid flat out stated in the mission that it would destroy the entire planet.  His exact quote was "Terra Nova will die Shepard.  Not just out colony.  The planet"

If X57 had hit Terra Nova, it would've killed most in the capital immediately since that's where the rock was pointed.  It hardly matters, however, as the dust kicked up in the atmosphere would've caused a nuclear winter that would've blocked out the sun for years, maybe even decades.  Photosynthetic life on the entire planet would die of starvation, and then all the wildlife dependent on that vegetation would follow suit.

The Batarians have demonstrated both a willingness and a capability to launch genocidal attacks on human worlds.  This is not theory, it's established fact in the game's canon.

In all honesty, I think the Batarians would probably enslave as many humans as possible.  Given how most of humanity's colonies are in the Terminus and Verge, most of remaining humanity would simply become a slave race to the Batarians.

Destruction of Earth in ME3 means humanity is done on the galactic scene.  Forever.

Modifié par jamesp81, 06 avril 2011 - 01:53 .

[sympathy4saren]

When the Reapers invade, species are going to do what all living organisms do when faced with death: enter survival mode.

I believe the Council will disband (if you saved the Council) and each species will look after their own interests. It's going to be extremely hard for Asari to give a damn when their homeworld is being attacked by Reapers. Think the Turians or Salarians will help them? If their homeworlds are under attack, they aren't going to give a dang about other species and their problems. Survival instinct is going to kick in.

Of course, that's assuming the Reapers are attacking simultaneously.

The ones with the advantage might be the non-heretic Geth. Their homeworld is probably well defended, and since their intellectual capacity increases in numbers, I bet their defenses are highly intelligent..so much so a Reaper might hesitate and show a bit of caution.

[Almostfaceman]

Nyoka wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...

Humanity needs a spiritual evolution - a fundamental change towards a more perfect existence - it is an internal journey - it has nothing to do whatsoever with geography.  Destroying Earth is irrelevent in this regard.

No it's not. By setting a completely new scenario, it frees humanity from its history. It eliminates the original error. For instance, we learn in ME1 that Eden Prime has been built according to well thought, long term plans. It's a small, concrete example of a bigger scheme. Without dragging around the burden of history and the crimes of every past generation, there is hope for a true second chance.

Blow up this planet: Save the galaxy, and redeem humanity from itself.

Yes, it is. Eden Prime is built by humans with the same inherent flaws as the humans on Earth.  Inherent flaws that things like religion and philosophy address.  Until those flaws are gone (which is an internal journey) history will continue to repeat itself.

Modifié par Almostfaceman, 06 avril 2011 - 01:53 .

[Almostfaceman]

Nyoka wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...
The problems that plague humanity are not caused by history either, but by human nature.

Yeah, definitely better off then.

Then by your logic all life is better off then (being wiped out), since it all exhibits the same flaws of humanity.

[jamesp81]

Nyoka wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...
If humanity is not worth it, neither are the aliens.  They aren't any better or worse.  Following your logic, we should let the aliens all be killed down to almost nothing as well.

Earth, not humanity. I've already said that I'd rather have a fresh start for humanity in the Exodus cluster, and hope for the best. In fact, you even quoted that.

Besides, we don't conduct ourselves according to what someone else does, a moral decision should always be based on what we ourselves are and do.

Earth is not the problem.  Humans are the way they are because they're humans.  The rock they're parked on will not have any appreciable effect on that.

[sympathy4saren]

Why have a philosophical debate on humanity's spirit? It's all objective, and no matter what one says, it is what it is. A=A. That doesn't mean we strive to be better, but perfection is not achievable. For whose standard is human perfection anyways? The view of those who want peace? Those who just want freedom? Those who just want social justice? Those who want to be left alone? Those who do not want having things stolen from them and given to others? What is the standard from this strife of perfection, and what authority does one have over another free being to make and assert that determination?

Modifié par sympathy4saren, 06 avril 2011 - 02:07 .

[CulturalGeekGirl]

"You can't blow up the Earth! That's where I keep all my stuff!"

Seriously, though. I like the Earth. I hope it stays around, habitable in some fashion.

Now, a lot of this stuff would be different if there weren't any reapers. Hell, if the Reapers were smart, they'd slink off to Dark Space for a few centuries and let the resulting Batarian/Human war weaken us beyond imagining, and our warning of the Reapers become famed throughout the galaxy as the psychotic delusion that doomed a promising race to extinction and war. But this is Mass Effect, and if the Reapers don't attack in ME3 I think a lot of people would be really, really pissed. Plus, presumably, the reapers still want to do a thing to us, so they need us alive.

Here's why I believe in humanity: because humanity contains people like Shepard. And so far, Shepard is literally the kindest, most forgiving person I've met in the whole galaxy. Now, this is largely because I'm allowed to play her that way... Shep can also be a bunch of other things, awful things, just like humanity can. It's really hard to explain it properly. If people like Shepard, they'll like humans, presuming those humans act like Shepard. So if a human wants to present himself positively in the universe, he'll have to behave Shepard-like. So by being this awesome, tolerant, vaguely badass but compassionate if given half a chance, inquisitive madgirl, I'm setting that forth as the standard to which all humans must aspire in the future.

Did I mention humble?

I think that one of the strong points for humans is our pre-programmed capability for multicultural understanding. I don't see other ships in the galaxy with a crew like mine. And yes, the capability for multicultural understanding is not present in all humans. Remember what Mordin said about our crazy-ass diversity. I think that's really important here... humanity has some super-messed up bad apples, but it also has crazy heroes beyond fathom. Wiping us out kills the sinners and the saints, at a great loss to the galaxy.

[Almostfaceman]

Nyoka wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...

Yes, it is. Eden Prime is built by humans with the same inherent flaws as the humans on Earth.  Inherent flaws that things like religion and philosophy address.  Until those flaws are gone (which is an internal journey) history will continue to repeat itself.

History repeats itself because we learn it from the previous generation. Break that chain. Eliminate history. Suddenly there are no old countries, no conquered territories, no old quarrels among cultures, no names. Here on earth, the land carries too much baggage to simply forget it or deny it. That internal journey can't happen here.

I see the people in the Exodus cluster as the awakening of the elves on Cuiviénen. A fresh start.

No, history repeats itself because we continue to have the same flaws as our ancestors. For instance, what internal mechanism is now present in the humans of Exodus that will prevent them from running low on resources and fighting over territory?  There is none. Humans everywhere still exhibit bad qualities like theft, murder, jealousy, hatred, greed, etc.  Until that is gone strife will remain no matter where humans go.

[Almostfaceman]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Yeah, your Shepard is so kind and forgiving she has a body count numbering in the 100's.

Oh be nice, golly gee wiz.