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[Nathan Redgrave]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Either you respect the law your don't. If its the latter you should just drop the charade and be a renegade. It's fun, you'll enjoy it and you'll have the satisfcation of knowing you aren't a hypocrite Paragon anymore.

Respecting the law doesn't translate to turning away and whistling when you see a criminal organization twenty feet in front of you. Also, you're wrong. Either you respect the law or you don't? What about respecting what the law's supposed to be and disrespecting the dipweeds in charge or it? Or respecting the law but not the idea that respecting the law should mean turning away and whistling when you see a criminal organization twenty feet in front of you? How bout respecting the laws against murder, but not whatever hackjob system got that asari flagged as a possible geth infiltrator?

Also, as a side point, Bailey himself seems okay with you doing his job for him, considering that Fade seems to be particularly good at avoiding C-Sec. So maybe I respect the law enough to do the law's job for them?

Or maybe you just misunderstand what the whole Paragon/Renegade thing is supposed to be, and are trying to paint things all black-and-white.

[Nathan Redgrave]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Don't start with that crap. P&P alignments are worthless and aren't applicable to real people or complex situations and dilemmas.

More applicable than "either you respect the law or you don't."

[JaimeBaby]

I really want ME 3 to have a bittersweet ending. And I don't mean something like Shep saves the universe but one or two non party characters (like Captain Anderson) and one or two squad members die. I want real loss and heartbreak. That doesn't mean whole civilizations should be wiped out, but things like Shep and/or the majority of the squad dying plus various major catastrophes would make for a powerful ending to the trilogy.

Having said that, I do hope to see further games in the franchise after ME 3 (has there ever been an official word on this?), so letting humanity perish would be a bad idea from that point of view.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Saphra Deden wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Paragon Shep tends toward Neutral Good. (also known as "true good."

Don't start with that crap. P&P alignments are worthless and aren't applicable to real people or complex situations and dilemmas.

Then why do you insist that "respect for the law" is a defining quality for the Paragon? I see no evidence of that, but you insist that it is so.

I argue that when Paragon shep cooperates with the law, it is because she thinks doing so is good, but if she thinks the law is incorrect she will defy it. I can cite dozens of examples of this, if you like. Thus I do not understand your insistence that doing good deeds in the defiance of the law is not a Paragon act. You brought up adherence to the law first, not I.

[Nathan Redgrave]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Yes, actually, it does.

No, actually, it doesn't.




(And I'm perfectly willing to do this all night, by the by. Don't try to paint things black-and-white out one side of your mouth while calling pen-and-paper alignments too simplistics for complex real-world situations, and then expect me not to laugh at you for it.) =3

[Nathan Redgrave]

Saphra Deden wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Then why do you insist that "respect for the law" is a defining quality for the Paragon?

Shepard's actions and statements over the course of two games.

Doing what the law wants nets Paragon points, doing what YOU want nets Renegade points. Embarking on a quest for renevenge fas a form of vigilantism would be a Renegade act.

Paragon actions are actions that generally fall into the realm of trying to do good even when it's risky to do so, whereas Renegade actions are more about getting the job done with ruthless efficiency. That certain aspects of one's potential behavior may fall into one or the other does not necessarily make that a necessary part of a Paragon/Renegade character's alignment--this is the main reason why you can, if you wish, opt to perform options from either alignment as you judge necessary, without actually losing what points you already have in the other.

"Paragon" and "Renegade" aren't even supposed to be considered alignments so much as categories for Shepard's actions to fall under, really. It's an (undoubtedly flawed) system that's supposed to allow for a less black-and-white take on moral choices, but it has the unfortunate effect of encouraging the player to stick wholly to one side or the other, hence most Shepards tend to be either bleeding-heart idealists or complete and total ****s.

[Nathan Redgrave]

Saphra Deden wrote...

So what, you think alignment charts are worth a damn?

No, I'm saying I think it's damned hilarious that you can preach complexity nary two breaths after preaching two-dimensional morality. "It's either this or it's that" is even worse than a "morality chart." At least the morality chart has multiple combinations of six different things.

Respecting the law is respecting the law and that means letting the police do their job. This is not subjective.

"Letting the police do their job." Right. Because C-Sec was all over that place, and we were totally in the way.

Modifié par Nathan Redgrave, 06 avril 2011 - 08:20 .

[Zulu_DFA]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Edit:
I see I'm not the only one who thinks that Earth also imposes limits on the future of humanity. Though I mean it in a different way than you, Zulu. Losing Earth would also be a net loss for a considerable length of time.

If you're interested in my arguments why I think losing Earth (provided the colonies remain untouched and the Navy intact) will be an immediate gain for the Alliance, you can find them there, in my discussion with Saphra:

http://social.biowar...ndex/6865789/27

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 06 avril 2011 - 08:22 .

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Saphra Deden wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Then why do you insist that "respect for the law" is a defining quality for the Paragon?

Shepard's actions and statements over the course of two games.

Doing what the law wants nets Paragon points, doing what YOU want nets Renegade points. Embarking on a quest for renevenge fas a form of vigilantism would be a Renegade act.

This is incorrect. I will cite several examples,

At the end of ME1, letting a crime boss survive and escape to rehabilitate herself is a Paragon act. Legally, you should arrest her. You get Paragon points for not doing so.

As both a Paragon and a Renegade, you steal a ship. This is unlawful. No character with true respect for the law would steal a starship, yet all Shepards are OK with this.

In Lair of the Shadow Broker, kissing my girlfriend is a Paragon act. It is not lawfully required that I kiss my girlfriend, but I do it because it is nice.

In Tali's loyalty mission, it is a Paragon act to hug my friend and comfort her. See above.

In Mass Effect 1, freeing a dangerous alien and not telling the council about it is pretty transparently against what galaxy law would require. But I do it anyway, because I think it is is good and also I read too many Ender books when I was a kid. I am rewarded Paragon points for doing so.

In Mass Effect 2, giving shelter and comfort to a member of a race who has been declared a clear enemy of the citadel is clearly not on the side of established law, but I do it anyway, and get Paragon points for it.

In Mass Effect 2, there is no law regarding the Collector base. It is outside of the jurisdiction of all laws. Blowing it up, or failing to do so, is an act with no relevance to law whatsoever - it is entirely a decision based on what you think is right.

I can go on. It wouldn't be hard to find quite a few more examples of times when doing the Paragon thing has absolutely no relation to the law or legal system. Sometimes they overlap, yes, but only when the law coincides with what Shepard thinks is good.

[CroGamer002]

Pissed if you get it no matter what.

Great if is one of the many endings.

[Nathan Redgrave]

Saphra Deden wrote...

You never gave them the chance to intervene. Shepard could have summoned C-Sec once he came under fire. In fact, Bailey asked you to handle things quietly. Shooting up a warehouse isn't 'quiet'.

There you go, now you're making sense. Yes, Shepard could have called C-Sec. And it would have been a logical course of action. This is a more compelling position than "Either you respect the law or you don't," which is two-dimensional toro-crap.

[Nathan Redgrave]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

In Mass Effect 1, freeing a dangerous alien and not telling the council about it

Correction: if you're referring to the Rachni Queen, this actually is relayed to the Council via Shepard's mission report. You simply don't have the opportunity to listen to the Turian councilor chew you out if you go to Noveria last, as they skip immediately to the "go back to the Citadel" conversation.

Fun fact: killing the Rachni Queen gets you chewed out by the Turian councilor anyway, for committing genocide. You just can't win with this conversation, so by all means, go to Noveria last and spare yourself the headache.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Nathan Redgrave wrote...

There you go, now you're making sense. Yes, Shepard could have called C-Sec. And it would have been a logical course of action. This is a more compelling position than "Either you respect the law or you don't," which is two-dimensional toro-crap.

Well, either you respect the law, or you don't. If Shepard respected the law he'd call C-Sec instead of shooting up all those mercs.

Then can we just agree that unblinking respect for the law is not a defining quality of Paragon Shepard's actions? 

It seems that the writers do not believe that it is required, or they would assign Renegade points for killing the mercs. Obviously the creators of the game do not agree that killing those mercs is a Renegade act.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 06 avril 2011 - 08:33 .

[Akizora]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Nathan Redgrave wrote...

There you go, now you're making sense. Yes, Shepard could have called C-Sec. And it would have been a logical course of action. This is a more compelling position than "Either you respect the law or you don't," which is two-dimensional toro-crap.

Well, either you respect the law, or you don't. If Shepard respected the law he'd call C-Sec instead of shooting up all those mercs.

and we'd be stuck with Mass Effect: Broken Sword with point and click navigation, looking at clues and talking to random people instead of shooting up the place and having fun

[Nathan Redgrave]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Well, either you respect the law, or you don't. If Shepard respected the law he'd call C-Sec instead of shooting up all those mercs.

Back to the old black-and-white with no consideration for shades of gray. Ah, well.

Even had Shepard summoned C-Sec, you know, it would have been stupid not to fight as many mercenaries and attempt to subdue or detain Fade in the meantime, since it was clearly within Shepard's ability to do so and they were unaware of possible escape routes at the time, so the "shooting up all those mercs" part wouldn't really change much.

Also, the mercs were already trying to kill him, which forces one's hand somewhat. That said, your denial of the simple fact that one might have varying levels of respect for the law and its institutions is dazzling.

Modifié par Nathan Redgrave, 06 avril 2011 - 08:35 .

[Icinix]

No.

I'll be pissed if the Earth is the ONLY world that dies.

[JaimeBaby]

Saphra Deden wrote...
Doing what the law wants nets Paragon points, doing what YOU want nets Renegade points. 

That's not true at all.

[Renegade133]

In Mass Effect 2, giving shelter and comfort to a member of a race who has been declared a clear enemy of the citadel is clearly not on the side of established law, but I do it anyway, and get Paragon points for it. which desicion was this one ?