661 réponses à ce sujet

[Nathan Redgrave]

Ieldra2 wrote...

From system-bound species to galactic power with at least 200 colonies in 35 years, does that sound plausible to you?

It... doesn't sound implausible, per se, but I'd have some trouble accepting it at face value.

[Zulu_DFA]

Ieldra2 wrote...

@Zulu:
I'm not saying that sacrificing Earth could never be the best strategic choice. All I'm saying is that economic and military power of Earth in comparison to other planets humans have settled would be a major consideration against making that sacrifice lightly. If the Reapers come and sacrificing Earth would ensure victory where other scenarios wouldn't, of course one should take it.

The low population on the colonies is their strenght, not their weakness. It means they don't have to dedicate enormous amount of resources just to support the population, like Earth has.

Humans as labor force are like horses: indispensible, till the technology grows past that indispensability. After that, it's only a burden to keep them. Trucks and tractors are cheeper to maintain, take more load and run faster.

Ieldra2 wrote...

I do maintain that ME's timeline - the part after 2148 at least - is preposterous. From system-bound species to galactic power with at least 200 colonies in 35 years, does that sound plausible to you?

More plausible than many things, I must tell you.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 06 avril 2011 - 10:23 .

[Gibb_Shepard]

THAT WOULD BE AWESOME!!

Earth falling based on one of your decisions would be epic.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Nathan Redgrave wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

That is the "unique" brand of insanity that all sentient life shares.

It's more appropriate to say that the larger galactic society never goes entirely one way or the other, whereas a fully Paragon Shepard is committed to the point where it really should have bitten him in the ass by now.

'Sides, I was just being cute about that "genius" remark.

The same thing is true of Renegade Shepard, from where I'm sitting. He's committed to overkill to the point where it should have bitten him in the ass by now. I mean, significantly more than the few minor inconveniences he's experienced.

You can say that Shepard's lucky. You can call it fate. You can call it narrative causality (and if you did, I'd be very happy). You can even say that he's figured out just how far he can go, in both situations. How far he can go without failing to take appropriately strong action, in a Para's case, and how far he can go without invoking severe consequences for his overreactions, in a Renegade's case.
 
I hope the two paths end up being similarly beneficial. But I'm unwilling to concede the idea that one is inherently superior to the other, strategically, in the long view.

I think it will be interesting if the final shakeout is something like this: 
Paragon, lose a massive chunk of humanity's population, keep respect of the galaxy.
Renegade, save most of humanity, become feared and disliked in the galaxy.

I really really don't want to lose earth entirely either way, but I'd give up earth to ensure that humans didn't become galactic enemy number 1, as long as enough population survives to recover.

[Legbiter]

If Earth is a complete write-off while the rest of the galaxy got through mostly unscathed the best case scenario will have humanity (a hundred million at most) become a client race of the turians. We'd have less pull than the hanar.

[Vanguard Alpha]

Depends, if my Shepherd had already repaid the loan for the SR3 Normandy (Second one had to be dived bombed into the Citadel, damm council) then hell yeah, if not, then no... good timing!!!

[Tamahome560]

Sacrificing Earth for greater good. I hope we get this kind of a decision to make

[CannotCompute]

It would just fuel my Shep's rage even more (which is a good thing). So bring the drama.

[Zulu_DFA]

Legbiter wrote...

If Earth is a complete write-off while the rest of the galaxy got through mostly unscathed the best case scenario will have humanity (a hundred million at most) become a client race of the turians. We'd have less pull than the hanar.

Do the Hanar have dreadnoughts?
Do the Hanar have fighter carriers?
Do the Hanar have stealth frigates?
Do the Hanar have E.D.Is?

Sorry to disappoint you, but it's the Turians (and everybody else) that are going to be a client race of the Humans, once the Earthen parasites are annihilated by the Reapers.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 06 avril 2011 - 12:33 .

[jamesp81]

Nathan Redgrave wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...

No, there is no doubt, if Earth is destroyed, humanity is done, FOREVER, as a galactic power and quite possibly will be an extinct species within a few decades.  It's really that simple.

Here's an interesting question. If Earth were destroyed, and humanity as a species took a blow, would the eventual outcome of this not be effected by humanity's percieved role in all of the events throughout the trilogy? For example:

Paragon victory #1--Earth is sacrificed to halt the Reaper invasion before it spreads to other species. Coupled with humanity's selfless defense of the Destiny Ascension during Saren's attack on the Citadel and humanity's respected position as a Council race, this garners massive respect and sympathy from the other races, and humanity, while initially in a bad position, is able to recover with the support of the other Council races, with even the batarians possibly lending a hand depending on Shepard's actions with regard to that particular species. Humanity is percieved (sometimes grudgingly) as a loyal defender of galactic stability, and well-deserving of its seat on the Citadel Council. While not as immediately powerful as in Renegade Victory #2, this ending ensures that humanity's place in the galaxy will last.

Renegade victory #1--Earth is sacrificed to halt the Reaper invasion. Humanity is not in good standing with the larger galactic community, but because of Shepard's actions while working with Cerberus, the "human-survivalist" organization is able to counter anti-human movements despite not having fully recovered from their post-Retribution weakness. Humanity retains its Council seat, but never quite achieves the same level of influence it had prior to the Reaper invasion.

Renegade victory #2--Earth is not sacrificed to halt the Reaper invasion, and a long, bloody war follows. Humanity takes the helm, and after the Reapers are finally thwarted, the other races have taken so much damage that humanity--both the Alliance, and, eventually, Cerberus--are able to further cement their dominance over the galaxy. They are respected, feared, and in control... for now.

...Can't think of a second Paragon ending at the moment, but you get the idea.

All three endings suck.

[Sandbox47]

Who needs Earth? We have Tessia, that should be enough. And Omega too I suppose. And Ilium will do quite well.

[Icinix]

Said it before and I'll say it again.

I'll only be disappointed if Earth is the only planet destroyed.

It will be gloriously anticlimactic if ends with the Reapers just sitting on Earth, and Earth alone.

[jamesp81]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Legbiter wrote...

If Earth is a complete write-off while the rest of the galaxy got through mostly unscathed the best case scenario will have humanity (a hundred million at most) become a client race of the turians. We'd have less pull than the hanar.

Do the Hanar have dreadnoughts?
Do the Hanar have fighter carriers?
Do the Hanar have stealth frigates?
Do the Hanar have E.D.Is?

Sorry to disappoint you, but it's the Turians (and everybody else) that are going to be a client race of the Humans, once the Earthen parasites are annihilated by the Reapers.

The Humans won't have any of the above if the Earth is destroyed, because the Alliance will have SPENT ALL OF THEM trying to save Earth.  Earth being destroyed pretty much implies the entirety of the Alliance military is destroyed, because NOTHING will be held back trying to protect Earth.  Nothing.

[jamesp81]

Sandbox47 wrote...

Who needs Earth? We have Tessia, that should be enough. And Omega too I suppose. And Ilium will do quite well.

Thessia and Ilium are Asari worlds, Omega is mostly Batarians, Turians, and Asari.  Those don't do anything to help humanity survive.

[jamesp81]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Nathan Redgrave wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

That is the "unique" brand of insanity that all sentient life shares.

It's more appropriate to say that the larger galactic society never goes entirely one way or the other, whereas a fully Paragon Shepard is committed to the point where it really should have bitten him in the ass by now.

'Sides, I was just being cute about that "genius" remark.

The same thing is true of Renegade Shepard, from where I'm sitting. He's committed to overkill to the point where it should have bitten him in the ass by now. I mean, significantly more than the few minor inconveniences he's experienced.

You can say that Shepard's lucky. You can call it fate. You can call it narrative causality (and if you did, I'd be very happy). You can even say that he's figured out just how far he can go, in both situations. How far he can go without failing to take appropriately strong action, in a Para's case, and how far he can go without invoking severe consequences for his overreactions, in a Renegade's case.
 
I hope the two paths end up being similarly beneficial. But I'm unwilling to concede the idea that one is inherently superior to the other, strategically, in the long view.

I think it will be interesting if the final shakeout is something like this: 
Paragon, lose a massive chunk of humanity's population, keep respect of the galaxy.
Renegade, save most of humanity, become feared and disliked in the galaxy.

I really really don't want to lose earth entirely either way, but I'd give up earth to ensure that humans didn't become galactic enemy number 1, as long as enough population survives to recover.

Paragon ending you mention sounds good depending on how much a "massive chunk" is.  If we're talking 1/3 to 1/2 of Earth's population, that works.  That still leaves between 6 and 8 billion on Earth, which leaves it plenty viable.

[jamesp81]

lovgreno wrote...

No, a victory should cost you a lot and it could be a interesting setting for following games. A situation like the Quarians perhaps. Of course those who want a bigger di... I mean a unrealistic galactic empire for their ubermensh may be dissapointed.

If my choice comes down to "Kill the Reapers and live like the Quarians" or "Kill the Reapers and die in a blaze of glory" then it's blaze of glory time.

[Sajuro]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Nathan Redgrave wrote...

There you go, now you're making sense. Yes, Shepard could have called C-Sec. And it would have been a logical course of action. This is a more compelling position than "Either you respect the law or you don't," which is two-dimensional toro-crap.

Well, either you respect the law, or you don't. If Shepard respected the law he'd call C-Sec instead of shooting up all those mercs.

and if he didn't want the c-sec officers get murdered by the mercenaries and YMIR mechs? It would seem renegade to use C-sec as meat shields in that way.

[Sajuro]

Sandbox47 wrote...

Who needs Earth? We have Tessia, that should be enough. And Omega too I suppose. And Ilium will do quite well.

Once you go blue, there's no other hue.

[Almostfaceman]

Nyoka wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...
No, history repeats itself because we continue to have the same flaws as our ancestors. For instance, what internal mechanism is now present in the humans of Exodus that will prevent them from running low on resources and fighting over territory?  There is none. Humans everywhere still exhibit bad qualities like theft, murder, jealousy, hatred, greed, etc.  Until that is gone strife will remain no matter where humans go.

So people run low on resources and fight over territory not because of historically contingent circumstances but because of "internal mechanisms"? What internal mechanisms? Blinking, that's an internal mechanism. Or breathing. Blushing. Sweating. Have you fought over territory recently? I haven't. I am human, right?

I'm not saying people will suddenly become saints somehow. It's about trying to do things right this time, without backward compatibility, so to speak. Come on, it's possible in a place called "Utopia system"! Have a little faith in humans :happy:

I guess this is the good thing about science fiction, it gives you a different scenario to play with a lot of "what if"'s, and, on top of that, you don't have to worry about people actually dying!

About that other thing, were you saying the other races think like Saphra Deden? We hear a couple of times aliens explaining what makes humans different in the game. Liara and the turian councilor (if you save the council) talk about it. So what applies to us doesn't have to apply necessarily to them, too. And the same works for the others, I mean for instance what applies to the turians doesn't apply to the asari or to the krogan, etcetera.

These "historical continigent circumstances" were created by human foibles in the first place.  Why are you mentioning blushing and blinking when I've obviously mentioned greed, jealousy, hate, murder, theft - what about those human qualities is escaping your grasp? 

Are you in a position to fight over territory?  Have you fought over - well - anything?  With anybody?  Sometimes for an irrational reason?  Just because you're jealous or mean?   Are you trying to say that human communities don't fight over territory or that they won't later on?

I have faith in humanity, but we must overcome our vices if we are to achieve utopia - which by the way means in greek - "not place".  It can't exist until we change.

I'm not sure why you're fixating on Saphra Deden.  If we must, Saphra Deden is a human.  In that, the asari, salarians, hanar, krogan, etc., all experience human qualities.  They lie, they cheat, they steal, they murder, they hate, they love, they like, they are vain, they are humble, they laugh, they cry, they dance, they mourn - all the things humans do.

[Rekkampum]

omgodzilla wrote...

Lets assume that ME3 has two discs.  

More like five.

[Tleining]

@ james81
i think you are a bit too caught up in the population numbers. From everything we've heard about earth, without the constant flow of ressources and money from the colonies, it would turn belly-up pretty fast. Horizon apparently did pretty well without support from earth/Alliance. Why couldn't the same be true for the other colonies?
With Elysium, Terra Nova and Eden Prime we have three colonies which are doing pretty well for themselves. Even without Earth, humanity would go on.

In order to support 13-14 Billion humans, earth is needed, but if 12 billion die, the Colonies should be able to pick up the slack. Unlike the Quarians, humanity doesn't have to flee from an enemy. Theoretically, it's possible.

If earth is destroyed, it could also mean that the Fleet is pulling back in Order to gather for a final strike. You might assume, that the destruction of earth means the destruction of the fleet as well, but there are other possiblities. Not to mention, that if the Alliance fleet gets destroyed, the other species will suffer losses as well. No one will get out of this war unscathed.
It also looks like the Reapers will reach Batarian Space first, wonder what effect that will have on their fleet.

[Whatever42]

I think the Earth should absolutely die. And your whole squad. And after you finish the game, I think Bioware should send over an employee to kick you in head for added emphasis.

But the Earth won't be destroyed. The destruction of humanity at the end of a space opera? You honestly think this is going to turn into a horror series in the last game?