94 réponses à ce sujet

[Garak2]

Aargh12 wrote...

Volus Warlord wrote...

If I wanted to see that stuff I'd watch a porno.

I'm playing action games for action, in the maliciously violent sense.

If DA2 ot Witcher  were action games. They are RPGs - they're supposed to give you freedom and you're supposed to act as you like. Don't want to romance NPC? Then don't do it, but don't limit options for those who want better RPG experience.

The Witcher needed an option to turn off the cursing. Cursing a little here and there is fine and realistic but The Witcher was over the top with it.

[Monica83]

The witcher have great action elements but also great roleplay elements...

Da2 is a garbage sequel hack & Slash with weak story and not roleplay elements this is the difference

[ErichHartmann]

Monica83 wrote...

The witcher have great action elements but also great roleplay elements...

Da2 is a garbage sequel hack & Slash with weak story and not roleplay elements this is the difference

This again?  I don't think you understand what hack and slash really means. 

[Blood-Lord Thanatos]

ErichHartmann wrote...

Monica83 wrote...

The witcher have great action elements but also great roleplay elements...

Da2 is a garbage sequel hack & Slash with weak story and not roleplay elements this is the difference

This again?  I don't think you understand what hack and slash really means. 

Technically, Every RPG is a hack'n'slash game. adventurers are really just killers who fight other characters for their stuff.

[Garak2]

Blood-Lord Thanatos wrote...

ErichHartmann wrote...

Monica83 wrote...

The witcher have great action elements but also great roleplay elements...

Da2 is a garbage sequel hack & Slash with weak story and not roleplay elements this is the difference

This again?  I don't think you understand what hack and slash really means. 

Technically, Every RPG is a hack'n'slash game. adventurers are really just killers who fight other characters for their stuff.

Not turn based RPG's like Dragon Quest IV (which  I am playing now). 

[Caja]

Carfax wrote...
Simple quesiton, how explicit/realistic do you think sex and romance should be portrayed in modern day games?

Since the "Why can't BioWare do sex scenes like CDProject" thread got closed, so we could join the discussion over here, I just copy and paste my piece:

Sex in games is certainly a controversial issue. Personally, I believe it’s a pity that there is such a riot if it comes down to this topic. We do have sex in movies and in television, so I don’t see the big deal to add it in a videogame, as long as it is tasteful and goes along with the story.
In my humble opinion BioWare could have done more explicit sex scenes in DA 2. What was wrong with the Origins-style? Sex scenes in Origins were tame but more appealing.
 
However, I understand that it’s probably not an easy choice to make. A question that will probably come up from a developer’s point of view is whether the players will like explicit sexual content or not. Players such as myself would appreciate it, because I believe a tasteful sex scene would increase the atmosphere of the romance. Another reason why I’m in favour for it is an artistic approach. A well executed sex scene looks 'nice'.
On the other hand other players might take offence in it.

So, to answer Carfax's question:
In my opinion a game that targets adults should be able to portray more explicit sex scenes, as long as they are done tastefully.  From my point of view this includes a naked male or female chest.

Modifié par Caja, 12 avril 2011 - 01:06 .

[Monica83]

Caja wrote...

Carfax wrote...
Simple quesiton, how explicit/realistic do you think sex and romance should be portrayed in modern day games?

Since the "Why can't BioWare do sex scenes like CDProject" thread got closed, so we could join the discussion over here, I just copy and paste my piece:

Sex in games is certainly a controversial issue. Personally, I believe it’s a pity that there is such a riot if it comes down to this topic. We do have sex in movies and in television, so I don’t see the big deal to add it in a videogame, as long as it is tasteful and goes along with the story.
In my humble opinion BioWare could have done more explicit sex scenes in DA 2. What was wrong with the Origins-style? Sex scenes in Origins were tame but more appealing.
 
However, I understand that it’s probably not an easy choice to make. A question that will probably come up from a developer’s point of view is whether the players will like explicit sexual content or not. Players such as myself would appreciate it, because I believe a tasteful sex scene would increase the atmosphere of the romance. Another reason why I’m in favour for it is an artistic approach. A well executed sex scene looks 'nice'.
On the other hand other players might take offence in it.

So, to answer Carfax's question:
In my opinion a game that targets adults should be able to portray more explicit sex scenes, as long as they are done tastefully.  From my point of view this includes a naked male or female chest.

That's happen because some people thinks see brutal violence and blood splattered around is more reasonable to see a naked body.... This is ridicolus i know...

Naked love scenes are nice for me because add immersion on the game see two people moan with all clothes on is so stupid... I think the witcher 2 will be great in this because this time they put more effort in romances and i like it... I very disappointed by the romances in DA2

But if they see a creature like in dante inferno with womanlike deamons with female genital full of teeths noone complaining...

Ho this evil nakedness will bring us to perdition!!!!! Pleease we are in 2011 no more in medieval times..

Modifié par Monica83, 12 avril 2011 - 01:56 .

[Chromie]

I'm feeling lazy and copying my post from another thread.

First I want to bring up a movie named "Shortbus" and a the description from IMDB.

"Coming (literally) at you like a steamroller, Shortbus blasts onto the
screen with some incredibly explicit sexual acts as it introduces the
main characters. And as the film progresses, the opening sequence makes
sense. Exploring many aspects of sexuality (both hetero, ****** and
whatever), this no holds barred film also explores tenuous
relationships and the sexual bond that holds us together or pushes us
apart. This is not sex as eroticism, but as a part of the human
condition. The acting evinces a realism that was achieved by a
collaboration between the actors and the writer/ director of the film.
Shortbus is a worthwhile film experience if the viewer is open minded
and able to see it as commentary about the human condition."

A lot of crtics have claimed the movie is basically porn. A lot of people have also said it's not. The director has said
"Sex, like music, is a universal language. We want to use it to introduce character, evoke emotion, propel the plot."

Bioware
introduced romance between companions back in Baldur's Gate. Since then
every game as well. Now I don't remember if Baldur's Gate had a sex
scene or Knights of The Old Republic, Jade Empire was in a tent and we
didn't see it (I think..) but Mass Effect and Dragon Age has it.

My
point is if Bioware decides to put it in the games they should try and
do a good job of it. No half-ass work. Clearly they are bigger then
CDProjekt and can take their time on FUTURE titles to try and give us
tasteful well crafted sexual content. Because like the director of
Shortbus John Cameron Mitchell says that the dictionary defines porn as
"material created and
viewed for the primary purpose of sexual arousal," and argues that the
sex in Shortbus is often purposefully "de-eroticized" to "remove
the cloud of arousal to reveal emotions and ideas that might have been
obscured by it".

I
don't know about anyone else but I never found these scenes
pornographic or titilating like Fox but I was annoyed at how it was
handled. Bioware wants us to romance their companions and try out their
games to the fullest but this is something that probably doesn't add
much to the gameplay but it adds to the story. Mass Effect 3 wise it
might be the last Shepard would ever see his squad wouldn't anyone want
to spend it with someone they cared for and you know "make love" or
Dragon Age 2's the sex scene really only happened after some quest or
turmoil such as Merrill or Anders wouldn't the person playing the game
see it more as a touching moment instead of something added for the
males?

While Bioware and CDProjekt are two different companies
and from different parts of the world we saw how useless censorship can
ruin a game, at least for the people who played the original Witcher. If
you didn't i'll break it down for you.

Not only were sex cards
censored, which didn't bother me, but so was blood. That bothered and
rubbed me the wrong way. Some finishing moves were censored from the
game as well because it was seen as too graphic. Eventually North
Americans just started modding/hacking or adding the uncensored files
into their NA version of the game because after all it's a game and a
form of entertainment and sometimes Art and should be treated as such.
Also CDProjekt has said they want mature sexual content that is tied to
the story and not handled like it was in The Witcher 1. By making it
full nudity and damning the censorship they are furthering making The
WItcher 2 look amazing. Keeping the full intergrity of the European
version and cutting content because we Americans are feel icky about
some parts of the game.

Remember when movies couldn't even have people
kissing? Games to me anyways can be an art form just as much as
entertainment but Video Games need to progress and that falls on to the
developers/studios. And to say Bioware doesn't have resources is a bad reason considering CDProjekt has only made 1 game before The WItcher 2...which is The Witcher 1. They are taking their time with their game and it shows what can be done when a game is made properly. Everything from the decision making to the story was more mature then in Dragon Age especially Origins. Origins didn't feel like dark fantasy at all. It has a lot of clear black and white issues compared to the Witcher and leaves less open to interpretation at times.

TL:DR = I want an M rating to mean Mature
because the whole game is mature and no aspect of a game should suffer
because of censorship or not wanting to face criticism since it's the
customers and fans Bioware should care about.

[Monica83]

Ringo12 wrote...

I'm feeling lazy and copying my post from another thread.

First I want to bring up a movie named "Shortbus" and a the description from IMDB.

"Coming (literally) at you like a steamroller, Shortbus blasts onto the
screen with some incredibly explicit sexual acts as it introduces the
main characters. And as the film progresses, the opening sequence makes
sense. Exploring many aspects of sexuality (both hetero, ****** and
whatever), this no holds barred film also explores tenuous
relationships and the sexual bond that holds us together or pushes us
apart. This is not sex as eroticism, but as a part of the human
condition. The acting evinces a realism that was achieved by a
collaboration between the actors and the writer/ director of the film.
Shortbus is a worthwhile film experience if the viewer is open minded
and able to see it as commentary about the human condition."

A lot of crtics have claimed the movie is basically porn. A lot of people have also said it's not. The director has said
"Sex, like music, is a universal language. We want to use it to introduce character, evoke emotion, propel the plot."

Bioware
introduced romance between companions back in Baldur's Gate. Since then
every game as well. Now I don't remember if Baldur's Gate had a sex
scene or Knights of The Old Republic, Jade Empire was in a tent and we
didn't see it (I think..) but Mass Effect and Dragon Age has it.

My
point is if Bioware decides to put it in the games they should try and
do a good job of it. No half-ass work. Clearly they are bigger then
CDProjekt and can take their time on FUTURE titles to try and give us
tasteful well crafted sexual content. Because like the director of
Shortbus John Cameron Mitchell says that the dictionary defines porn as
"material created and
viewed for the primary purpose of sexual arousal," and argues that the
sex in Shortbus is often purposefully "de-eroticized" to "remove
the cloud of arousal to reveal emotions and ideas that might have been
obscured by it".

I
don't know about anyone else but I never found these scenes
pornographic or titilating like Fox but I was annoyed at how it was
handled. Bioware wants us to romance their companions and try out their
games to the fullest but this is something that probably doesn't add
much to the gameplay but it adds to the story. Mass Effect 3 wise it
might be the last Shepard would ever see his squad wouldn't anyone want
to spend it with someone they cared for and you know "make love" or
Dragon Age 2's the sex scene really only happened after some quest or
turmoil such as Merrill or Anders wouldn't the person playing the game
see it more as a touching moment instead of something added for the
males?

While Bioware and CDProjekt are two different companies
and from different parts of the world we saw how useless censorship can
ruin a game, at least for the people who played the original Witcher. If
you didn't i'll break it down for you.

Not only were sex cards
censored, which didn't bother me, but so was blood. That bothered and
rubbed me the wrong way. Some finishing moves were censored from the
game as well because it was seen as too graphic. Eventually North
Americans just started modding/hacking or adding the uncensored files
into their NA version of the game because after all it's a game and a
form of entertainment and sometimes Art and should be treated as such.
Also CDProjekt has said they want mature sexual content that is tied to
the story and not handled like it was in The Witcher 1. By making it
full nudity and damning the censorship they are furthering making The
WItcher 2 look amazing. Keeping the full intergrity of the European
version and cutting content because we Americans are feel icky about
some parts of the game.

Remember when movies couldn't even have people
kissing? Games to me anyways can be an art form just as much as
entertainment but Video Games need to progress and that falls on to the
developers/studios. And to say Bioware doesn't have resources is a bad reason considering CDProjekt has only made 1 game before The WItcher 2...which is The Witcher 1. They are taking their time with their game and it shows what can be done when a game is made properly. Everything from the decision making to the story was more mature then in Dragon Age especially Origins. Origins didn't feel like dark fantasy at all. It has a lot of clear black and white issues compared to the Witcher and leaves less open to interpretation at times.

TL:DR = I want an M rating to mean Mature
because the whole game is mature and no aspect of a game should suffer
because of censorship or not wanting to face criticism since it's the
customers and fans Bioware should care about.

a really nice post

[Chromie]

Monica83 wrote...
a really nice post

Thanks!

I just hope more people see sex doesn't have to be pornographic or erotic it can serve a purpose to advance a story or developer two characters. Also, Shortbus was a great movie and shows how sex can be used in as a tool for telling a story and showing emotions and not get the blood rushing so to speak.


@ErichHartmann  To be fair everyone who says "DA 2 is a hack and slash game" probably doesn't know what it is...at least I hope so. Because stats and number crunching are sitll apart of the game. Hack and Slash games are more like Dynasty Warriors which is why I don't get how people come to the conclusion that DA2 is a simple button masher. I use my abilities and skills when it's the right time.

I don't heal when I'm at max health I don't us my powerful attacks on enemies that are at low health and I don't press buttons to reach a 100 hit combo like in Marvel vs. Capcom.

Modifié par Ringo12, 12 avril 2011 - 03:24 .

[Monica83]

Maybe i chose the wrong term not hack /slash but not even an rpg... a much more action adventure game

[Caja]

@ Ringo12: They censored the sex cards? WTF?

You had some excellent points. I especially agree with the following:

Remember when movies couldn't even have people
kissing? Games to me anyways can be an art form just as much as
entertainment but Video Games need to progress and that falls on to the
developers/studios.

Also, I like to quote something from a videoclip that another poster linked in another thread:
"How can you have an art that denies sexuality?"
Sex was always explored in art. Just look at Rodin's famous sculpture here. I have a hard time to imagine how visitors stand in front of it and say: "Ahhh, a naked breast. Scandal." 

So, why is it such a controversial issue in a game? The filmmaker of the videoclip suggests that games might still have an image problem because many people look at them as if they were toys for children. And I agree with him, that if games want to be a proper art form, there should be a more mature way to portray sex scenes. On the other hand, I believe we are not quite there (yet).

It's a great video, btw. Here's the link: http://www.escapistm...05-Sex-in-Games

Modifié par Caja, 12 avril 2011 - 05:41 .

[aries1001]

Why is the -ahem- fine erotic picture removed; the picture of Triss and Geralt being -ahem- without clothes on? showing them having an intimate relationship of an adult nature...Of course, it can also just had been removed because it was (is) copyrighted material...

In DA: Origins, I really got a chock when Morrigan did wear a bra in the -ahem- intimate scenes, and she didn't wear one, in any of the other scenes...Very -ahem- fascinating - indeed...

As for the romances, intimate scenes in ME2, I liked them (watched hem on youtube, I think). I liked that that the characters got so intimate and personal, and that we got a motivation for them sleeping together, not just 'hey, I now have 100 love/friendship, so let's do it' - let's fall in love' (to paraphrase Cole Porter).

I also liked how the romance, intimate scenes, in ME1 was done; tastefully done and nothing more than you can see in your average PG-movie today or nothing more than you can see in see in any Danish tv-series on national which plot revolves around relationships...

As for Witcher 1, remember that it mostly were the girls that pursued the romantic relationship with Geralt, and Geralt did have a chance to say no to the girls; and he also had to make a choice regarding which woman he wanted to be with in the game...[The only problem I really have with the witcher 1 is that the quests continue during the chapters - it makes it really hard and difficult to know what you're doing...]

As for nudity and homosexuality, Europeans generally (and I do mean that in the broadest sense) have a tendency to view this as not as bas as other people. But even in Europe, there are differences; in Denmark, Norway and Sweden, parents worry much more about violence than sex, in Italy, parents worry much more about sex than violence. And the same thing probably also applies to the US, China or India.

As for romance/sex scenes being in games, I personally have no problems with this - as long as it serves a purpose. And I do think that romance/sex scenes in all Bioware's games do serve a purpose - in God of War, I've heard rumours of sex scenes that I would describe as just being in the game - just to have a sex scene in the game.

Edit:

In BG1, there was a brothel where the player had to lead the pc to - in order to complete the main quest. And at a certain point in that game, BG1, or maybe BG2, but I think it was BG1, you could choose to have an -ahem- intimate scene with Viconia, I think. The screen would fade to black, and if you were in a romance with Jaheira, she would have - ahem - something to say about it. I'm not sure, though, if this was in BG2...

Modifié par aries1001, 12 avril 2011 - 06:54 .

[Seagloom]

Ringo12 wrote...

I just hope more people see sex doesn't have to be pornographic or erotic it can serve a purpose to advance a story or developer two characters. Also, Shortbus was a great movie and shows how sex can be used in as a tool for telling a story and showing emotions and not get the blood rushing so to speak.

I own Shortbus on DVD. Good movie. The rampant nudity and periodic sex scene work well in that movie because the characters' problems are either linked to sexual dysfunction, or mirrored by their approach to sex. This is actually what I was getting at in earlier posts. I think sex scenes are okay when they serve to drive the narrative forward or expand on one's understanding of a character.

The problem is sex scenes in games to date have been all about titillation. The Witcher 2 *might* break this trend. Only time will tell on that. Mass Effect's scenes were tastefully done, but of arguable necessity. DAO's scenes were plain gratuitous however. At most they gave a teensy tiny bit of insight into Alistair and Zevran's personality that the player can easily ascertain in dozens of other ways beforehand. Therein lies the problem. The creators of most games lack the vision to attempt anything near the likes of Shortbus. In my opinion we are still a ways off from seeing romances done satisfactorily. That has to be tackled before sex scenes will be considered seriously, I think. It will be interesting to see if the Witcher 2 comes anywhere near making this a reality. At least CD Projekt's intentions are in the right place.

Modifié par Seagloom, 13 avril 2011 - 04:17 .

[Godak]

Seagloom wrote...

DAO's scenes were plain gratuitous however.

They were also awkard, poorly animated, and had far, FAR too many fading transitions. I wanted to punch the director of those cutscenes SO bad.

Unfortunately, punching him won't make those cutscenes better. WHY DOES VIOLENCE EXIST IF YOU CANNOT USE IT TO ACCOMPLISH YOUR GOALS?!

Seagloom wrote...

Therein lies the problem. The creators of most games lack the vision to attempt anything near the likes of Shortbus.

There is also far too much fear in the gaming industry. As a collective group, they take every criticism from the mainstream media as some sort of potentially apocalyptic prophecy.

[Caja]

Godak wrote...

Seagloom wrote...

DAO's scenes were plain gratuitous however.

They were also awkard, poorly animated, and had far, FAR too many fading transitions. I wanted to punch the director of those cutscenes SO bad.

Unfortunately, punching him won't make those cutscenes better. WHY DOES VIOLENCE EXIST IF YOU CANNOT USE IT TO ACCOMPLISH YOUR GOALS?!

Hmm, am I the only one who thinks sex scenes in Origins were nicely done? They worked certainly better for me than the ones in DA 2. Let's take Alistair and Anders for instance.

I thought Alistair's sex scene was very tender and as a player I felt involved. The scene was part of his characterisation and it wasn't the slightest bit inappropriate. Screenshot 1

Anders, on the other hand, had a better kiss scene in my opinion, but once he and Hawke 'go to bed', there is a distance between the camera and the two characters, so the whole scene after the kiss left me cold.  
Screenshot 2

I never romanced Morrigan or Leliana, so I don't know how their scenes turned out. I admit that it sounds weird that Morrigan puts on a bra for this occasion while she usually doesn't wear one, but story wise such a scene has certainly it's purpose.   

[Seagloom]

It was a reflection of his prior characterization, but did not contribute anything meaningful to what was already there. Zevran was the same way. I already knew Alistair was affectionate and had a chivalrous streak before that scene. I also already knew Zevran was sexually experienced. The scenes were not utterly gratuitous in that they did reflect their respective characters. They were just unnecessary in expanding them further.

Putting that aside, they were awkwardly animated. I have only scene Leliana's scene when romancing her as a female protagonist. That scene was the worst by far since it was animated as if the Warden was male. Blech.

[Caja]

Seagloom wrote...

It was a reflection of his prior characterization, but did not contribute anything meaningful to what was already there. Zevran was the same way. I already knew Alistair was affectionate and had a chivalrous streak before that scene. I also already knew Zevran was sexually experienced. The scenes were not utterly gratuitous in that they did reflect their respective characters. They were just unnecessary in expanding them further.

Putting that aside, they were awkwardly animated. I have only scene Leliana's scene when romancing her as a female protagonist. That scene was the worst by far since it was animated as if the Warden was male. Blech.

Well, I disagree. Obviously .

If the warden doesn't initiate sex with Alistair, he will eventually. In my humble opinion this proves that he is changing, because Alistair is more focusing on the things he wants and less on his duty. So, it's not so much about him being affectionate, but more about him being a little bit selfish in order to be happy. And to experience sex is part of that. Therefore I don't think it was a reflection prior of his characterization. 

I'm not sure about Zevran though.  

I can't say anything about the animation of Leliana's scene, since I didn't romance her. Alistair's and Zevran's scene looked fine, at least for me.

[Seagloom]

Alistair had a slightly selfish streak from day one. He only exhibits some change if hardened, and even then it is not that drastic an impact on his overall personality. The way he asks the Warden for sex, and the following scene just extended my perception of him as old fashioned romantic. Asking first does not make him selfish in and of itself. It makes him a man.

Alistair's selfish side comes up several times throughout the game; culminating in the hissy fit he throws if Loghain is spared. His sacrificing himself regardless of what the Warden decides is another example of that. I think the most vivid instance prior to those scenes is if Isolde or Connor are killed. Alistair admits to a Warden with high cunning his outburst is more about how Arl Eamon perceives him than the fate of Eamon's wife or child. That is about as self-centered as it gets.

I would have enjoyed the sex scene more if it told me something new about him. I thought the flower dialogue was more revealing and endearing by a wide margin.

There is little more I can say about Leliana's scene. I am sure it looked fine for a male Warden, but as a female it was bizarre. They animated it as if the women had male junk. The only part that was not awkward city was when the pair embraced.

Modifié par Seagloom, 13 avril 2011 - 12:05 .

[Moondoggie]

Seagloom wrote...

There is little more I can say about Leliana's scene. I am sure it looked fine for a male Warden, but as a female it was bizarre. They animated it as if the women had male junk. The only part that was not awkward city was when the pair embraced.

There are mods available that change the sex scenes. One changes the girl on girl sex scene with Leliana so it looks less weird and more like two females getting it on. I can't for the life of me remember which mod it is but it saved me a  WTF face when i watched the scene lol.

[Seagloom]

I am familiar with it. "Better Sex Cutscenes", right? I referred to BioWare's original scene for the sake of discussion. Without a baseline everyone has experienced, it is impossible to converse on equal terms. Same sex romances almost always get shortchanged there it seems. No kiss scene in Jade Empire. Wonky animation in DAO and DA2. Mass Effect was the only game that accomplished it satisfactory in my opinion. That may be because it hardly showed anything. Nothing to see. Nothing to criticize.

Modifié par Seagloom, 13 avril 2011 - 12:43 .

[clst]

sex in game i say these is more mature



what's mature game look like but not enought because it's game as +18 and we aren't children ( porn or erotic don't choc me >>my children yes )

[Rockpopple]

Titillation and maturity aren't the same thing.

I think BioWare took steps forward in having LI's mean more to the character than just a last minute booty-call before the final battle. LI's can move in with you, they involve themselves during the main characters tough moments. There's a lot more intimacy than titillation in Dragon Age II.

I'm not saying titillation is a bad thing. I mean even the word is funny. Sure, more nudity would be alright as far as I'm concerned - but I'm a male gamer. When I say I'd like more nudity, I mean of the female variety. Guy parts don't really do anything for me. If you told BioWare you wanted more "maturity" and in response they gave you more nut and butt shots of Alistair, you probably wouldn't be pleased.

To me, more intimacy is better than more nudity. That's a more mature use of sexuality in games. If you think about it, boobs in games isn't anything new, and the Witcher 2 certainly doing anything special for it.

[Caja]

Rockpopple wrote...

To me, more intimacy is better than more nudity. That's a more mature use of sexuality in games. If you think about it, boobs in games isn't anything new, and the Witcher 2 certainly doing anything special for it.

Why can't there be both?

[Rockpopple]

Like I said: more nudity would be alright as far as I'm concerned. Just be careful what you ask for. You might end up with Alistair's nuts and cheeks instead of Leliana's naughty bits.