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Elemental Mages on Nightmare


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#26
Musou1776

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iOnlySignIn wrote...

Fireball does x1.3 base damage unupgraded, Chain Lightning does x3.15. This means that Fireball won't out-damage Chain Lightning even with a +100% Fire damage bonus. And that is without considering CCCs.


It also isn't considering a great many other factors worth considering, but not worth my time telling to you.  I advocate getting elemental and primal, so it isn't really an either/or argument.  Plus having looked at your other "contributions" on this forum I realize that you are an idiot and I don't waste my time arguing with fools, so we are done.

rumination888 wrote...

Its pointless trying to argue with someone that has poor observational skills, though. So continue to stew in your own ignorance.


Exactly.  Pearls before swine man.

Modifié par Musou1776, 06 avril 2011 - 08:26 .


#27
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Musou1776 wrote...

It also isn't considering a great many other factors worth considering, but not worth my time telling to you.  I advocate getting elemental and primal, so it isn't really an either/or argument.  Plus having looked at your other "contributions" on this forum I realize that you are an idiot and I don't waste my time arguing with fools, so we are done.

Oh, I go Elemental + Primal myself, I just use Cold exclusively instead of Fire.

And please, I do beg for your forgiveness for my stupidity. I am eager to learn from more intelligent people. Please teach me how to make a better Elemental (especially Fire) Mage. I mean it.

P.S. Would you please care to elaborate which of my "contributions" betray my idiocy the most? I shall strive to correct any past mistakes and learn to be a better person. Thanks!

Modifié par iOnlySignIn, 06 avril 2011 - 08:40 .


#28
Sabotin

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I'm rolling an elemental mage just to see how it goes. So far it's been great (lvl9), not having any problems at all, except the odd use wrong elements on immunes. Pretty fun, though.

#29
rumination888

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iOnlySignIn wrote...
Oh, I go Elemental + Primal myself, I just use Cold exclusively instead of Fire.

And please, I do beg for your forgiveness for my stupidity. I am eager to learn from more intelligent people. Please teach me how to make a better Elemental Mage. I mean it.

P.S. Would you please care to elaborate which of my "contributions" betray my idiocy the most? I shall strive to correct any past mistakes and learn to be a better person. Thanks!


I'll answer this one.

The problem is your arguments are all red herrings(and why I stopped responding to you in another thread).

Not only did you equate "fire" with "fireball" from what Musou was saying, but you also completely dismissed Firestorm and staff damage. Staff of Parthalan, Staff of Voracity, and Staff of Falon'Din are some of the best staffs for their respective Acts - all fire damage.

Its like someone dismissing Fervor from the Reaver tree because Aura of Pain sucks. That kind of logic is ridiculous.

#30
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rumination888 wrote...

I'll answer this one.

The problem is your arguments are all red herrings(and why I stopped responding to you in another thread).

Not only did you equate "fire" with "fireball" from what Musou was saying, but you also completely dismissed Firestorm and staff damage. Staff of Parthalan, Staff of Voracity, and Staff of Falon'Din are some of the best staffs for their respective Acts - all fire damage.

Its like someone dismissing Fervor from the Reaver tree because Aura of Pain sucks. That kind of logic is ridiculous.

Ah, I'm really sorry. There has been a misunderstanding. I was never aware that these discussions concern Staff damage as well (Was anyone even talking about Fire Staves in these threads? The other thread is specifically about Fireball, and this thread doesn't even mention any Fire Staff until you brought it up just now). I assumed that Staves will be switching automatically according to enemy elemental weaknesses, so I thought the discussions were only about which *spells* to choose. I use Fire Staves quite often actually, partially *because* I don't have any Fire Spells (to deal with Fire-weak enemies).

I've seen your 3 Mage + Varric videos, and they impressed me a lot (I YouTube commented on one of them some time ago). I still think STAGGER based CCCs are more effective because the devs seemed to have designed to give CCCs an edge over non-CCCs (600% or 900% on the already considerable Chain Lightning and Paralyzing Hemorrhage is too persuasive).

As for equating "fire" with "Fireball" in terms of spells, I just never use Firestorm because I can't control where the next ball of fire lands. It irks me. I know it's a decent spell (comparable to Tempest, unlike Fireball which is not comparable to Chain Lightning), but I just can't bring myself to use it. I'd rather throw Grenades because at least I'll know exactly where it lands. Excuse me but I have a mild case of OCD.

btw A technical question: Does Combustion/Fell Grenades benefit from + Fire damage gears?

Modifié par iOnlySignIn, 06 avril 2011 - 09:24 .


#31
rumination888

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iOnlySignIn wrote...
Ah, I'm really sorry. There has been a misunderstanding. I was never aware that these discussions concern Staff damage as well (Was anyone even talking about Fire Staves in these threads? The other thread is specifically about Fireball, and this thread doesn't even mention any Fire Staff until you brought it up just now). I assumed that Staves will be switching automatically according to enemy elemental weaknesses, so I thought the discussions were only about which *spells* to choose. I use Fire Staves quite often actually, although never any Fire Spells.

And I've seen your 3 Mage + Varric videos, and they impressed me a lot (I YouTube commented on one of them some time ago). I still think STAGGER based CCCs are more effective because the devs seemed to have designed to give CCCs an edge over non-CCCs (600% or 900% on the already considerable Chain Lightning and Paralyzing Hemorrhage is too persuasive).

As for equating "fire" with "Fireball" in terms of spells, I just never use Firestorm because I can't control where the next ball of fire lands. It irks me. I know it's a decent spell (comparable to Tempest, unlike Fireball which is not comparable to Chain Lightning), but I just can't bring myself to use it. I'd rather throw Grenades because at least I'll know exactly where it lands. Excuse me but I have a mild case of OCD.

btw A technical question: Does Combustion/Fell Grenades benefit from + Fire damage gears?


Don't play the innocent card with me. I never responded to anything in the other thread about Fireball until you made the following statement:

"A very strong reason why Mages are weaker than the other classes is that
they have no abilities to boost the damage of their personal auto-attacks"


Modifié par rumination888, 06 avril 2011 - 09:24 .


#32
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"A very strong reason why Mages are weaker than the other classes is that
they have no abilities to boost the damage of their personal auto-attacks"

A Staff is not an *ability*, is it? I was talking about Cleave/Barrage/Blood Frenzy/Elemental Mastery/Pyromancer, those are what I consider *abilities*. Why can't I speak English well enough so that people could understand me? Gah!

And no, I'm NOT playing with words or anything. As I said, I thought (and still believe) that any Mage discussion should focus on *spells*/*abilities*, because *staves* should obviously be switched according to enemy resistances.

Musou1776 wrote...

Agree it is a bit ironic that people will totally grasp damage and speed increasing abilities in
warrior and rogue trees
, but overlook +50% fire and other bonuses in elemental.

See, Musou1776 here is talking about *abilities* as well. Not about Staves. I was constantly misled.

Modifié par iOnlySignIn, 06 avril 2011 - 09:54 .


#33
Att3r0

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i will risk being called troll but heck...
There is no need to be offensive, rumination888 got some right. Most uderestimate elemental due to fire and they underestimate fire due to lack of some nuke. Fireball is weak and firestorm is dangerous/tricky to use. So obiously its easy way out to ignore rest of elemental part 1-4 points in frost side.
However the +fire damage talent and mastery increase also your staff damage. Its weak design but thats how it is - you are gonna auto-attack whole load as mage. Also mastery give WG 100% chance to brittle so it becomes a dependable CCC source. Ah and also with alot of +fire damage firestorm becomes capable of locking targets in it with its CC part.

And honestly what other option as mage you got ? primal and then what ? (considering you want to stick with damage spells) what if target is immune to electricity ? force got no damage hemorhage is ok but need alot of points and getting +physical doesnt go with mage gear. spirit got 1 direct damage spell and so is mysti and im not sure if getting +25% on auto-attack wont give you more damage then using the spell.

Modifié par Att3r0, 06 avril 2011 - 10:06 .


#34
Musou1776

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iOnlySignIn wrote...

And no, I'm NOT playing with words or anything.


Uh, yeah you are.  Anyone of average intelligence could read that I was talking about auto attack and spells.  It's right there in the post you are taking one sentence out of context from.

#35
Roxlimn

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What a lot of guys don't understand is that damage is an either-or ability. It either kills the dudes or brings them within range of a kill shot, or it essentially does nothing. It doesn't materially affect the ability of an Archer, for instance, to do damage.

The most debuff damage does is to render mobs easier to hit-animation.

What this means is that each area damage you stack on another area damage effect is correspondingly more powerful. By itself, a Fireball won't do much. Stacked on top of Firestorm, Tempest, Chain Lightning, Winter's Blast, Cone of Cold, Fist of the Maker, and whatever area damage the rest of your team can dish out - well, it adds up.

As long as you can keep the mobs within the kill zone (hello, Gravitic Ring! Hello, Telekinetic Blast!) and they're not immune to the elements you're using, they're toast.

Also, stacking this many spells on top of each other means that your auto-attack doesn't matter as much. If you're casting this many spells one after another, you won't have enough time to do autoattacking.

#36
bossk-office

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Grumpy Old Wizard wrote...

In other words you think it is perfectly fine that mages are gimped on NM compared to the other classes? I don't. class balance SHOULD be judged on EVERY difficulty level included in the game.

In a way, I find it exciting that mages are gimped ... I mean, people who want it even harder than Nightmare play solo runs; this time, they can get it extra super hard by soloing as mages. It’s like not just one step above Nightmare, but two. This is probably perverse; I’m nowhere near good enough to even solo as a warrior but I think it’s fantastic that we’ve begun to see videos of mages solo clearing really difficult fights. If mages weren’t gimped it wouldn’t be as exciting.

Not saying this is a 100% defensible way of looking at it, but at least part of me feels this way!

#37
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Musou1776 wrote...

iOnlySignIn wrote...

And no, I'm NOT playing with words or anything.

Uh, yeah you are.  Anyone of average intelligence could read that I was talking about auto attack and spells.  It's right there in the post you are taking one sentence out of context from.


Musou1776 wrote...

I followed up on what Rumination posted myself. Getting elemental spells on top of primal instead of fleshed out Blood spells reduces ability to exploit CCC (with better ability to brittle tho), but massively increases auto attack power and casting power if you learn to properly manage your allies movement or their runes for elemental resistance.

Indeed, you were saying that "getting elemental spells" "massively increases auto attack power", which makes as much sense to me as saying that buying a gun will massively improve your ability to swim. That is why I didn't quote them - it's because I was too dumb to understand them and afraid of embarassing myself.

Oh, and please don't tell me Pyromancer is a "spell". A spell is something you cast with your staff. Please cast Pyromancer before you tell me it's a spell and let me see its casting animation.

Edit: I stand corrected. Pyromancer is indeed a "spell". I apologize for my poor English. I have a question though: If Pyromancer is a "spell", then who is "spellbound"? The Mage? The Staff? The Enemy? It's still a little hard for my slow mind to understand.

Modifié par iOnlySignIn, 06 avril 2011 - 11:39 .


#38
wartabris

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iOnlySignIn wrote...

Musou1776 wrote...

iOnlySignIn wrote...

And no, I'm NOT playing with words or anything.

Uh, yeah you are.  Anyone of average intelligence could read that I was talking about auto attack and spells.  It's right there in the post you are taking one sentence out of context from.


Musou1776 wrote...

I followed up on what Rumination posted myself. Getting elemental spells on top of primal instead of fleshed out Blood spells reduces ability to exploit CCC (with better ability to brittle tho), but massively increases auto attack power and casting power if you learn to properly manage your allies movement or their runes for elemental resistance.

Indeed, you were saying that "getting elemental spells" "massively increases auto attack power", which makes as much sense to me as saying that buying a gun will massively improve your ability to swim. That is why I didn't quote them - it's because I was too dumb to understand them and afraid of embarassing myself.

Oh, and please don't tell me Pyromancer is a "spell". A spell is something you cast with your staff. Please cast Pyromancer before you tell me it's a spell and let me see its casting animation.

Edit: I stand corrected. Pyromancer is indeed a "spell". I apologize for my poor English. I have a question though: If Pyromancer is a "spell", then who is "spellbound"? The Mage? The Staff? The Enemy? It's still a little hard for my slow mind to understand.


Dude, shut up? Quit derailing a good topic by defending yourself on the Bioware Social forums for DA II. Add to the topic or private message... I'm almost no better posting this and not adding to the topic but I never post, I just read, but in this case you are ruining my subscription to this post.

Modifié par wartabris, 07 avril 2011 - 01:28 .


#39
Grumpy Old Wizard

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I started my fourth mage (my second mage was scrapped because he became bugged at level 7; my third mage is a blood mage.) This one is currently level 7 on the video and is so far all elemental except for 1 in Fist of the Maker and 1 in Rock Armor. He will go 32 willpower and the rest Magic.

This video shows how I play the recruitment mission for Anders. It demonstrates the power of the Frost Rune and focussed fire, along with how to bait the hunter. Everyone has a weapon socked with a frost rune, Carver's has 2.

Without futhur ado, presenting Illume

#40
Joy Divison

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rumination888 wrote...

The few people that dabbled in it were probably too scared to use the spells often due to FF.

Its pretty sad how much ignorance there is, in regards to mage DPS on these forums, when people don't even utilize the mage's most damaging spell tree.
Its the same with SnS warriors not picking up Vanguard and claiming their dps is poor.

I tried putting up a few vids of an elemental mage killing things faster than every 2H vid out there, but apparently it isn't enough.


I'm going to have to agree with this 100%.

I did my first mage playthrough on nightmare and went deep into primal, force mage 1st specialization, dont take fire, blah blah we all know the drill and I will say although it got the job done and was effective, it was kind of boring and my rogueHawke and warriorHawke were definitely better characters.

I'm at level 10 and took nothing but elemental (no rock armor, no chain lightning) and heal, and without a doubt this mage is a lot more deadly and fun to play; you actually sometimes do feel like it's DA Origins all over again.

Firestorm isn't actually that difficult to use and in many encounters (particularly the nighttime ambushes where there are hordes of enemies clumped up and far away), it trivializes the fight.

#41
atheelogos

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rumination888 wrote...

The few people that dabbled in it were probably too scared to use the spells often due to FF.

Its pretty sad how much ignorance there is, in regards to mage DPS on these forums, when people don't even utilize the mage's most damaging spell tree.
Its the same with SnS warriors not picking up Vanguard and claiming their dps is poor.

I tried putting up a few vids of an elemental mage killing things faster than every 2H vid out there, but apparently it isn't enough.

can I get a link to that vid?

#42
Jack-Nader

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Yeh, I agree with rumination. I've spent the last day running through as a 3 mage party + varric. Everything is fodder.

#43
Grumpy Old Wizard

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Joy Divison wrote...


I'm at level 10 and took nothing but elemental (no rock armor, no chain lightning) and heal, and without a doubt this mage is a lot more deadly and fun to play; you actually sometimes do feel like it's DA Origins all over again.

Firestorm isn't actually that difficult to use and in many encounters (particularly the nighttime ambushes where there are hordes of enemies clumped up and far away), it trivializes the fight.


Post your videos. Because so far I call BS about anyone claiming Hawke mage can consistantlly kill as fast as Warrior Hawke. All you have to do is look at the countless videos of warriors and rouges and note the decided absense of mage threads claiming to dominate Nightmare. Again, just a portion of one battle does not cut it.

On my first mage I had Anders as the full elementalist and my mage was full pirmal + cold + other stuff. But to make absolutely sure no one can spout claims about "well, if only your mage was full elemental he would be a god putting the warriors to shame" I am going full elemenatal first on this mage (my fourth.)

Oh, I have certainly found that when you run your Hawke mage up close enough to cast Firestorm the enemies are not so easy to catch in it. As a hint, if you want to catch them in the firestorm you will often need to use glyph of paralysis or gravimetric ring, ect.

I eagerly await your videos showing what an awesome slayer of enemies your mage is and how much he reminds you of Origins mages. Because my DA2 mages can't hold a candle to my Origin mages. Too few spells, too long of cooldowns, ect. There is no reason to pretend differently.

Edit: Oh, one of the videos I am very keen to see is the Nexus Golem Wares battle in Sundermount. Please post lots of videos so I can learn form you and so you can prove your case.

Modifié par Grumpy Old Wizard, 08 avril 2011 - 09:12 .


#44
Jack-Nader

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Post your videos. Because so far I call BS about anyone claiming Hawke mage can consistantlly kill as fast as Warrior Hawke. All you have to do is look at the countless videos of warriors and rouges and note the decided absense of mage threads claiming to dominate Nightmare. Again, just a portion of one battle does not cut it.


You're going to have to add some paramaters to this statement.  ie. @ what point in the game
 is the comparison made.

The introduction  levels 1 - 4  mage wins hands down :)  Warrior only starts to compete in terms of damage vs single targets when he has access to a large amount of buffs.  I won't even bother to go into the realm of AOE's where the mage is clearly superior.

The mage has a few things going for it that the warrior cannot match until late game, Elemental weaknesses haste and hexes!

@ level 12 with the staff or primal order, 32 magic and elemental mastery:-

If I cast winters grasp on the dragon in the deep roads I can expect to do ~ 500 damage or 950 damage with hex of torment.  Casting Cone of cold will do 32% less damage than winters grasp.  The staff will do aproximately 3 times the base DPS( 120 Damage per strike or over 200 with hex of torment. ) 

You might argue that this is case specific and not consistant damage output.  Well, no.  Select a staff and spells that counter whatever you are fighting.  It isn't difficult to do.

qunari, rage demons, rock wraith and dragons = cold
skeletons, revenants, spiders, shades = electricity
Anything that is immune to cold = fire


Rumination888's videos of him killing the rock wraith / dragon are proof enough.  I have personally tested the exact same party setup he used.   Not only is it a viable party, it is actually overkill. You walk into a room and everything dies in seconds.  You actually have  to stand around for 10 - 20 seconds waiting for the next wave to spawn.

on a side note :-

One thing I have noticed also is that running an all ranged party spreads the damage you recieve over all your characters instead of having it all concentrated on a single character.  It's actually less potion intensive.  I virtually never needed to chug a potion which was something I was doing constantly when I ran through with a warrior or rogue hawke.

Another thing I tested was high health knockback avoidance.  I have to admit that it worked quite well untill act 2 where I was being staggered a lot.  To counter it I would have to keep putting points into constitution which is something I do not like to do.  I tend to want to chuck all points into magic.  For this reason alone I think taking the unshakeable talent is more viable.  I did select the blood mage talent as rumination888 did for the +25 health.  I am not a big fan of blood mages.

Modifié par Jack-Nader, 08 avril 2011 - 04:46 .


#45
Grumpy Old Wizard

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Jack-Nader wrote...
You might argue that this is case specific and not consistant damage
output.  Well, no.  Select a staff and spells that counter whatever you
are fighting.  It isn't difficult to do.


Sorry, but spell cooldowns are rather long and immunities are often mixed.

You are doing a lot of theorycraft, but it does not work out in practice. Post your videos of complete encounters and we will compare them to the times warriors/rouges have. Let's look at some multiple wave encounters and two assassin encounters, ect. Let's look at that Nexux Golem encounter too.

I'm quite willing to be proven wrong. But just talk won't cut it. Show me the videos.

I love to play mages in every game that has them so I'd love to be proved wrong.

Modifié par Grumpy Old Wizard, 08 avril 2011 - 04:56 .


#46
Att3r0

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i wouldnt say a low lv mage is a demon of aoe lol ... that fireball expecialy during the escape felt more like "hi im mage hit me" hehe... well ofc the other fellas didnt let me die and killed them hell yeah!

deep road dragon is easy .. well honestly every dragon is easy even the high one is not hard if you know how to deal with the adds. Dragons here are disappointment i belive they should be given some special attack if nothing is in melee range.ARC is an auto attack fight mages and archers rly shine here.
i was curoious what numbers i i had on the deep dragon so Bethany WG with apostates courage (funny thing now at 17 lv still no better cold staff droped for me QQ) and full elemental - 370. so yea 500 for hawke with better staff and magic should be the value. Assasinate 800 twin fang 700 explosive strike 700 - no mark of death ofc.

if you could have a CD reduction ability like martyr or upkeep aoe like wrath of elvhen :S

Modifié par Att3r0, 08 avril 2011 - 06:22 .


#47
Grumpy Old Wizard

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Illume (now level 9) plays ring around the rosy at the Bait and Switch trap.

Click

#48
Jack-Nader

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Yeh.. single targets - Rogue wins hands down once they get twin fangs. From memory my rogue's twin fangs was doing ~ 2 * 800 damage @ level 13. No mage can beat that.

I never bothered with fireball in the introductory phase. Electricity + winters grasp or spirit bolt with the cold staff is the best start for a mage.

One good thing about the introduction is that it gives you a very good comparison of the different classes before the talents muddy things up.

Anybody can test this and see for themselves. *Difficulty setting = nightmare*

At level 1
Carver consistantly does 4 - 5 damage per strike.
Bethany and mage hawke will do 9 - 12 damage per strike.

Note that Darkspawn have normal resistance to cold and fire so it is "supposedly" an even playing field. We can see logically from this that it is not. The mage class is doing double the damage of the warrior despite both having an expected damage output of 6/10DPS for carver and 6/8DPS for Bethany and Hawke.  I can't notice any difference in their swing speed myself. Carver and bethany both swing 12 times in 10 seconds.

Just going by this we can see that the warrior needs to pick up cleave before they can compete with a mage in terms of autoattack damage ouput. If the target is weak to an element the warrior will require atleast an additional 100% damage ontop of that to compete. I think the bonus is actually larger for elemental weaknesses but I can't be sure of the exact number until somebody looks at the code.

The next thing to do is to compare their talents / cool down times


Warrior
Mighty blow - 15 seconds - starts at 16 + 8 damage
Sythe 20 seconds - starts at 12 + 6 damage
Whirlwind 25 seconds - starts at 12 + 4 and 100% critical chance
assault 15 seconds - starts at 7 + 3 * 3
scatter 25 seconds - Starts at 16+8 damage
shield bash 10 seconds - starts at 7 damage
Cleave 20 seconds + 100% damage
Assail 30 seconds + 10% damage + 4 damage
Barrage 30 seconds
Sacrificial frenzy 15 seconds

Mage
Winters grasp - 20 seconds - 22 damage
Cone of cold - 30 seconds - 15 damage
fireball - 20 seconds - 7 damage
Fire storm - 30 seconds - 7 damage per second for 10 seconds
Spirit bolt - 10 seconds - 13 damage
walking bomb - 30 seconds
rock fist - 15 seconds - 20 + 10 damage
chain lightning - 20 seconds - 16 damage
tempest 30 seconds - 3 damage every 2 seconds over 20 seconds

Mastery adds + 25% cold +50% fire + 25% spirit + 25% electricity damage
Hex of torment adds + 75% damage

On the surface these figures look like they are about even. The damage average is 21.6 for a warrior over the 6 offensive talents. The cooldown average is 18.33. Damage output for the Mage is 25.375 over 8 talents and the cooldown is 21.875

The damage output and cooldowns "appears" to be pretty even, however we must take into consideration that the warrior is doing physical damage and the mage is not. This alone means that the warrior is playing catch up.

What all this means is pretty simple. In terms of damage per second the mage wins hands down and continues to do so until a point is reached in the game where the warrior has access to an elemental weapon. Unfortunately this doesn't happen until act 3 and the warrior is stuck with only a handful of elemental weapons to choose from.

Modifié par Jack-Nader, 08 avril 2011 - 07:07 .


#49
Jack-Nader

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Saw your video grumpy. You play strange :)

I would have oppened with chain lightning and then dropped inferno on them while they were stunned.  This locks them down completely.  The bulk of them will spend the next 10 seconds doddering around inside the blast radius.  If they chase you like they were doing in the video it would be ok to cast cone of cold for the secondary slow effect which still applies even if it does no damage vs the slavers.  You could have taken advantage of their slowed state to drop inferno on them also.

Modifié par Jack-Nader, 08 avril 2011 - 07:27 .


#50
Att3r0

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daaaa ..... got bored half way... Grumpy dont you usse binds at all ? makes things faster ...alot...
that fight i remember was funny for me i used walking bomb and blowed them all ..ofc 2 tries first i blowed aveline too but we will keep that a secret.
its too early for aveline to go cleave she needs some survival!. Just make taunt things and you run away with ranged and pick 1 target at time no need for aoe.