263 réponses à ce sujet

[Att3r0]

ehem and i thought that i only explained why warrior damage skyrocket with levels lol.
Armor vary, and warrior bypass 50% armor on crits, also warrior dont move anywhere without his support mage.
warrior auto-attacks are aoe ...

Jack-Nader wrote...
Next problem is the fact that at ANY point in the game, staves have far greater DPS than weapons available to the warrior class.

^this.....
As for gear it happens that whole champion armor sux for mage. And +%damage bonus for multiple schools are rare/expensive.

Modifié par Att3r0, 09 avril 2011 - 05:52 .

[rumination888]

Jack-Nader wrote...

The mage is going to be weilding a staff which is strong vs his/her target creature. This means that the warrior has to make up atleast an additional 100% damage. We will need a passive talent like blood frenzy and we have to have almost no hitpoints to achieve it.

This. 100x this.
In order to optimize warrior damage, they need to hover below half health at all times. Is it possible? Sure. But it takes a whole lot more effort and preperation than simply switching weapons and targetting an enemy's weakness.

Jack-Nader wrote...

Next problem is the fact that at ANY point in the
game, staves have far greater DPS than weapons available to the warrior
class. To make matters worse, nearly all the gear has some form of
elemental damage bonus. Are you starting to see the big picture yet?

Not this. 100x not this.
Itemization for mages is AWFUL in Acts 2 and 3(but the reasons in Act 2 differ from Act 3).

In Act 3, random 1H, 2H, and staffs you buy in stores all have the same DPS, but not the unique weapons. Unique staffs are 5 levels below other weapon types. At level 21, you can buy better random staffs than every unique staff you find. You need to be level 26 before you can purchase better random 1H, 2H, daggers, and bows.

In Act 2, you have Cold-Blooded and Voracity in an Act where the majority of enemies are weak to electricity. The former staff being stupidly expensive, the the latter staff requiring you to beat some of the hardest fights in Act 2.

There's also the problem of having to split all of the good staffs between three mages. (Whats even funnier is there are more unique bows in the game than any other weapon type. Edit: Okay I take that back, bows are the second most abundant behind SnS)

Itemization for mages suck.

Modifié par rumination888, 09 avril 2011 - 06:07 .

[ezrafetch]

Grumpy Old Wizard wrote...

You are leaving out warrior passives, cleave, assail, each normal attack hitting multiple enemies, ect.

You are leaving out mage passives, and pretty much every spell being able to AoE better than any warrior ability.

Att3r0 wrote...

its simple mathematic - for warrior putting 10 points in two handed you wont say that any point got wasted (maybe the auto-crit on critters). For elemental mage you got max 9 talents in elemental and you probably will stick to 7.
Now what more points for warrior do ? they get buffs, stacking buffs that buff his all around abilities.
Mage? you need to go for different elements so when thigns are fire immune you got spells to use. You can get some survival/support/CC spells. However the damage of your fire spells will stay this same (apart from item scaling)

That's overly reductionist, don't you think?  Your "simple" mathematic is "simply" absurd: it's not about how many skill points you invest; it's the amount of stuff you get out of it.  And I'd say, pound for pound, Mages get just as much out of the Elemental tree as Warriors get out of the 2H tree.  Warriors also do not "get buffs," they get buffs from mages, so I'm not sure where you have that idea.  And don't warrior talents only really scale with weapons either?  Your Mighty Blow is going to be a Gimpy Blow without a good weapon.  That's an erroneous argument.

Modifié par ezrafetch, 09 avril 2011 - 06:07 .

[IN1]

There's also the problem of having to split all of the good staffs between three mages. (Whats even funnier is there are more unique bows in the game than any other weapon type.)

Eh? Are we playing different games? There are 23 unique bows in this game. 24, if you count Adder of Antiva. Likewise, there are 23+1 unique staves in this game (is it +1? I have no idea how many bonus staves are there, but I know of at least one). On the other hand, we have 31 daggers, 31 two-handed weapons, and 28 two-handers (29 if we assume Vigilance is legit).

[rumination888]

IN1 wrote...

There's also the problem of having to split all of the good staffs between three mages. (Whats even funnier is there are more unique bows in the game than any other weapon type.)

Eh? Are we playing different games? There are 23 unique bows in this game. 24, if you count Adder of Antiva. Likewise, there are 23+1 unique staves in this game (is it +1? I have no idea how many bonus staves are there, but I know of at least one). On the other hand, we have 31 daggers, 31 two-handed weapons, and 28 two-handers (29 if we assume Vigilance is legit).

I was counting off the number of bows vs. other weapon types from one of those "official" strategy guides.

[IN1]

rumination888 wrote...

IN1 wrote...

There's also the problem of having to split all of the good staffs between three mages. (Whats even funnier is there are more unique bows in the game than any other weapon type.)

Eh? Are we playing different games? There are 23 unique bows in this game. 24, if you count Adder of Antiva. Likewise, there are 23+1 unique staves in this game (is it +1? I have no idea how many bonus staves are there, but I know of at least one). On the other hand, we have 31 daggers, 31 two-handed weapons, and 28 two-handers (29 if we assume Vigilance is legit).

I was counting off the number of bows vs. other weapon types from one of those "official" strategy guides.

According to Prima Official Strategy Guide, it's 23 bows vs 24 staves (without Collector's Ed. bonus), so some staves & a lot of other unique weapons are probably unaccounted for in the guide you used.

Anyway, your general evaluation regarding staves being underleveled in relation to other weapons is probably correct -- I am no staff expert.

Modifié par IN1, 09 avril 2011 - 07:53 .

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

Jack-Nader wrote...

Sigh..No. I left out nothing. Seriously, I do not see why this is so hard to understand.

Elemental damage bypasses armor. If a warrior is using a physical damage weapon they first need to overcome the enemies physical resistance.

Errrrr, you've never hear of elemental resistances? Some creatures are simply immune to some/all of the mage's spells. A warrior does not face that. There are mixed immunity packs and dual immunes (like quanari being immune to lightning AND fire.)

Warriors also have Destroyer to reduce damage resistance. And Masacre to outright kill anything normal enemy bellow 20% heath while doing any attack.

eg. A target has 50% armor resistance then the warrior is going to need + 100% damage just to punch through that resistance. That's your cleave talent wasted right there.

See above for correction.

Uh, cleave is +100% damage and stacks with other attacks. 50% is not equal to 100%. Might Aura can be up 100% of the time. And of course Assail.

Two handed warriors also get giants reach so every auto attack is attacking numberous enemies at the same time. And of course sunder increases critical change. And of course the warrior specialties offer quite a lot of damage boosting. The mage specialties pretty much suck with is one part of the problem.

The mage is going to be weilding a staff which is strong vs his/her target creature.

The mage will be pretty much limited to whatever staffs he finds for the most part since he can't afford to buy staffs for each element.

Oh but wait... The mage can have hexes which are an additional 75% damage. We will need sacrificial frenzy to make up this ground and again the warrior will have to have almost zero hitpoints.

I'm not sure how many spell picks you think the mage gets. Almost all of the mage spells suck unless you sink 2, 3, or even 6 points into it (that is what is needed for Paralyzing Hemmorage.)

Picking Hex of Torment lowers damage resistance by 25% for 15 seconds. If you are talking about getting death cloud, that will take 7 points and it absolutelly sucks. It would also take away quite a bit from available offensive spells.

So at this point we must be minimum level 9 as a warrior.
Now mages also have the option of grabbing +25% electricity +25% cold + 50% fire from passive talents which is also added to staff damage.

To grab those takes LOTS of spell points.  Warrior passives are much easier to obtain.

We are going to need to find something else to make this damage up. All we have left is assail, berzerker and addrenaline. Barrage and might are out of the picture because a mage has identical talents with haste and heroic aura.

Haste and Heroic Aura don't stack.

Next problem is the fact that at ANY point in the game, staves have far greater DPS than weapons available to the warrior class. To make matters worse, nearly all the gear has some form of elemental damage bonus. Are you starting to see the big picture yet?

Nah, mage staffs are underleveled. And Final Thought is supposed to be the best staff in the game and gives bonuses to nature magic (there is no Nature spell available to Hawke mage) and Spirit (spirit bolt + walking bomb.)  WB sucks becasue it is seldom realisticlyl usable. And of course Final Thought does physical damage.

[Jack-Nader]

50% resistance to physical attacks. Enemy has 100 HP. Your physical damage is 100. You will do 50 damage with a single hit. Therfore you need to do double damage.. Pretty basic mathematics really.

hex of torment -25% and 100% critical hit chance translates to +25% + critical hit base which starts at 50% for all classes = +75% damage

Haste and heroic auro doesn't stack? Since when.

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

My bad, I was thinking Heroic Aura and Arcane shield. But the mage can't get all thetalents you ascribe to him.  Haste + Heroic Aura is 5 more spell picks. Add up the picks to elemental passives and the entropy picks.

Illume fights for the freedom of a Qunari mage.

Click

[Jack-Nader]

"That poor girl" - Anders

Modifié par Jack-Nader, 09 avril 2011 - 08:26 .

[Att3r0]

iOnlySignIn wrote....

Seriously, why don't Mages have individual buffs (like in DA:O) but only party buffs in DA2? Because Magic is to serve man? FTS

Yea i think so too.... Blood sacrifice should give x% damage buff (or just spell damage buff) and 2x if it kills party member. And force should have ability somehwat similar to berserker - consumes a % of current mana and buffs damage based on mana consumed - stacks but short duration.

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

Illume takes out a gang headquarters in the Pier Pressure quest.

Click

Modifié par Grumpy Old Wizard, 10 avril 2011 - 12:03 .

[Roxlimn]

I'm speechless. Taking out ONE target using Firestorm and Fireball while using Apostate's Courage to boost Cold damage? Brilliant.

The initial CoC hitting two targets was nothing short of a devastating application of the ability. Capitalizing on 100% Britlle with Shattering Arrow was totally unnecessary.

Modifié par Roxlimn, 10 avril 2011 - 01:02 .

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

Roxlimn wrote...

I'm speechless. Taking out ONE target using Firestorm and Fireball while using Apostate's Courage to boost Cold damage? Brilliant.

You idiot. That one target was the elite blood mage Leech who can take out an entire party in a single spell. Yeah, I did not switch the staffs every time I switched  spells because the boost in damage was not needed in that case and frankly it irritates me to switch staffs every spell or two. I mowed them down pretty fast.

You haven't evern done a Nightmare playthrough according to your own admission. As far as I can see you have no DA2 profile and no videos so I'm not even sure you are playing the game.

You just appear to be present to attack anyone who says the game is not perfectly balanced and could use some tweaks.

The initial CoC hitting two targets was nothing short of a devastating application of the ability. Capitalizing on 100% Britlle with Shattering Arrow was totally unnecessary.

My position upon opening the door was not perfect (I was off to one side.)  That made me only sweat. There was no time to wait for the thrid enemy and hope I could catch him in the cone. My main concern was getting into a postion to the side Leech was coming down and taking him out. The third wa an archer anyways so was unlikely to move behind the rushers.

I don't replay battles so that was my first try. I've played through that same battle with 4 mages so I already knew about Leech and where he would be.

Oh,  there was no Shattering Arrow in the whole video becasue Varric does not have that talent.

Modifié par Grumpy Old Wizard, 10 avril 2011 - 01:32 .

[Roxlimn]

Yes, because he clearly specs himself and didn't take the skill. Leech can be locked down and killed by Merrill + Varric doing their CCC thing. There's no need to worry about him. The time I took him on as Warrior Hawke, I as appalled at how much damage he could actually do. He didn't get the chance to do that when I was Mage Hawke.

And yes, that was one of the battles I replayed as Mage Hawke and Warrior Hawke on Nightmare. Using a Mage for single target damage (using Firestorm and Fireball, no less) is still... ...brilliant. Absolutely awesome. You sure rock Mages, GOW. It's like using Assassins for crowd control. They're awesome at that.

Modifié par Roxlimn, 10 avril 2011 - 01:47 .

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

Roxlimn wrote...

Yes, because he clearly specs himself and didn't take the skill.

You are an idiot and/or blind. No, he does not have shattering shot. That is certainly not in the priority for a level 10 Varric.

Leech can be locked down and killed by Merrill + Varric doing their CCC thing. There is no need to worry about him.

My party was mage Hawke, Varric, Aveline, and Anders, Sherlock.

Using a Mage for single target damage (using Firestorm and Fireball, no
less) is still... ...brilliant. Absolutely awesome. You sure rock
Mages, GOW. It's like using Assassins for crowd control. They're
awesome at that.

Leech was the most dangerous foe on the battlefield. I took him out leading with my most damaging spell as anyone who had actually played the game would do. It is obvious from the lack of a DA2 profile and your failure to produce any videos that you are 99% likely to just be a troll.

Modifié par Grumpy Old Wizard, 10 avril 2011 - 01:59 .

[Roxlimn]

You are an idiot and/or blind. No, he does not have shattering shot. That is certainly not in the priority for a level 10 Varric.

Clearly. Because CCCs suck.

My party was mage Hawke, Varric, Aveline, and Anders, Sherlock.

That was obvious from the video. You didn't have to point it out.

Leech was the most dangerous foe on the battlefield. I took him out leading with my most damaging spell as anyone who had actually played the game would do. It is obvious from the lack of a DA2 profile and your failure to produce any videos that you are 99% likely to just be a troll.

Many of the people in both the ME2 and the DA2 threads here have found my approach useful, or have similar experiences. I'm only posting to be helpful. I don't see how saying that having more targets in an AoE effect would make the effect better is trollish.  I dunno. It sounds intuitive to me. It also sounds intuitive to use a Fire staff when you're casting fire spells - again, that's just me. I'm sure you're better than me. There must be some point to building a party specifically NOT to exploit CCCs, to catch the least number of targets in AoEs (zero in one of your Fireballs in the last vid), and to use Cold staves for Fire spells - I just don't understand.

Modifié par Roxlimn, 10 avril 2011 - 02:18 .

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

Roxlimn wrote...
 There must be some point to building a party specifically NOT to exploit CCCs, to catch the least number of targets in AoEs (zero in one of your Fireballs in the last vid), and to use Cold staves for Fire spells - I just don't understand.

I think what you are ignorant of is that there are a lot better things to pick up for Varic by the time he is level 10 than shattering arrow. You also seem to want to keep Leech alive and well so he can wipe out the party in one spell.

Did I totally misss with one fireball? Oh well, anyone who says the've never mistimed a fireball on a moving target is a liar. Again, you have no videos up and no DA2 profile. All you do is talk and insult.

Firestorm was the most damaging spell, in my mages arsenal so that is what got cast on Leech first. No, I did not go to the trouble of going into my mage's inventory between the Cone of Cold and the Firestorm. It is generallly not worth the bother to go in your inventory between every spell. At least not for me. Feel free to spend 75% of your time playing with staffs if you want. That is not for me. If I am going to be shooting with my staff I'l change it as needed.

@iOnlySignIn

Since you're using both Fireball and Fist of the Maker in this video, how do you think they compare?

I
think they are very comparable powers. Similar damage (Fireball is
nominally lower, but gets many more boosts, while Fist ignores Armor and
gets a CCC bonus), similar radius & upgrade (5/6 m to 10 m). Fist
has less cooldown but costs more mana. Fireball causes panic while Fist
knocks enemies flat.

What do you think?

I don't like the upgrades for either because larger AOEs make the spells harder to use in many circumstances. A LOT of battles are in small rooms/narrow outdoor paths.  I hate to have to miss casting a spell because the area of effect is too big.

The thing I like about Fist is that as you pump your Magic you get more stuns. Mana cost in the long run won't be a problem. Also, there are no physical immunes (and Fist ignores armor) but there are fire immunes. On the other hand, you can give eventually give Aveline Fire immunity and so be able to cast Fire spells with abandon around her and as you say, you can get +% Fire damage from gear.

This time around I have the DLC amulet that gives +10% damage to Fire/Cold. This mage won't be wearing chamion armor. I'll be looking to maximize elemental damage.

By the way, I've noticed you can shop for random +%cold damage rings from Bonny Lem.  The cold modifier sometimes appears on rogue rings. It looks like the +% is limited to +4% in Act 1 or maylbe that is just the percent for my mage's current level. When shopping for cold staves for my blood mage I've never found a cold staff that also had a +%cold damage modifier but maybe I just had bad luck with that.

I wish the cone spells for fire and electricity were in DA2 also. Such spells are more easily controlable. Flexibility of spells is important, especially when number of spells is small (as in DA2.)

[Roxlimn]

Why the hell are you even using Fireball or Firestorm on moving targets?!? I'm... ...yes, I'm sure you have a point with missing with the ranged spells. You're awesome. You know your stuff. Yes, it was clearly the best modus operandi to use the MAGE on single targets and the ROGUE on multiple targets. I'm sure there was a great reason for why Aveline was cooling her heels while Anders was dying.

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

Roxlimn wrote...

Why the hell are you even using Fireball or Firestorm on moving targets?!?

There are only so many spells a level 10 mage has, Gummy. So when you have no other spells available you try to anticipate their movement. sometimes they go somewhere else. But I don't care enough to look through the video to see what fireball I supposedly missed.

You're awesome. You know your stuff. Yes, it was clearly the best modus operandi to use the MAGE on single targets and the ROGUE on multiple targets. I'm sure there was a great reason for why Aveline was cooling her heels while Anders was dying.

Clearly it would be stupid for me to just have Varric shoot Leech and pray Leech didn't kill my entire party. My mage took out Leech and the companions kept the minions at bay.

Oh, it seems you are blind or not very observant. If you watch the video you will see Aveline was not standing around. There's that little sign that tells you when she is attacking normally or using a talent.

I'm flattered that you are so obsessed with my videos that you want to watch them over and over again. Thanks.

Modifié par Grumpy Old Wizard, 10 avril 2011 - 04:15 .

[Jack-Nader]

What Roxlimn is saying, and rightly so, is you simply are not using the spells you have efficiently.
If you want an honest tip, stop bringing the fight to the enemy and let them come to you.

For instance, your first mistake was to step through the door. The AI is thick as bricks in this game. They will run through rain, hail or shine just to target you. All you have to do is drop fire storm on the door and then step back. The AI has no choice but to run through it's AOE just to target you. The concussive effect disables them. This also includes Leech. When leech is visible just nuke him. You don't have to chase him down or anyone for that matter. Firestorm -> fist of the maker -> fireball -> etc, followed up by ranged staff attacks while your spells are in cooldown.

[Joy Divison]

Jack-Nader wrote...

"That poor girl" - Anders

More like "Your poor mabari" :happy:

Modifié par Joy Divison, 10 avril 2011 - 09:40 .