147 réponses à ce sujet

[Oneiropolos]

I actually agree with the disappointment that Anders does not reveal his actual relationship with Karl to a female Hawke. I get WHY he does to a male Hawke, he wants to make sure they know he's available, but my character supposedly spent six years with Anders and it's never played out that she found out he was bisexual and that he was trying to save his ex lover that night after they (Hawke and Anders) first met? That just seems a little... bizarre. Anders is all happy you accept him, but it feels like he's 'hiding' his bisexuality. I'm not going to sulk for hours over him doing it, it's just more.. I get why he hid and lied about BLOWING UP A CHANTRY but why never mention who Karl was to him? It's just something I wish the writers had chosen differently on.

As far as Merril and Fenris go... the fact is, we don't know their histories, but Fenris basically stated he hadn't been close to anyone after he got his tattoos and Merrill's been a little obsessed with a mirror. I think, yes, theoretically, they're always bisexual but in their cases, I'm not sure they KNOW that or ever find that out until either A) Hawke is out of their lives or Hawke (off camera of course) pulls a threesome one night and they figure out "Oh, hey! Look at that! I'm also attracted to that gender!" For Fenris, for example, unless he gets enough of his memories back, he doesn't remember having male lovers. But we know if he's not romanced, he and Isabela will be intimate according to the banter (though...does anyone else not entirely trust that banter? I mean, think about the banter between Izzie and Varric where someone has to flat out ask what they're talking about and it turns out it's daggers. For all we know, Fenris gave her a REALLY good massage and not in Zevran's style.) It isn't until there IS a male Hawke that pursues Fenris that Fenris would have any basis to go "Huh. I'm attracted to a male." I mean, looking at people around you isn't telling about your sexuality. I'm straight but I can still look at a woman and find her sexy. I can even find her erotic. But that doesn't equate to, "and so she should go to bed with me." I actually can view men the same way, and not reach the conclusion of, "I want him in bed with me." even with attraction. Some people are wired to immediately think of sex, others aren't. Fenris and Merrill don't seem to be wired to immediately go "Oh, attraction. That means I should SO find a way into their bed!"

[Crossroads_Wanderer]

 I always figured Anders reveals his bisexuality to female Hawke off-camera. There are clearly interactions among the characters that we don't see (I doubt that Hawke doesn't talk to anyone during the three year interludes) so I figured that once they become involved, they talk about their personal lives with each other. Not talking about Karl on-camera probably has two reasons, one in-game, and one meta-game:

1. It isn't relevant to reveal a male former lover to a woman you're flirting with.

2. There may be a small number of women who play the game who are uncomfortable with the idea of romancing a bisexual man. They can maintain the illusion of him being straight if his past with Karl is never explicitly stated on-camera. Though, that doesn't stop the scene right before Anders kills Karl from looking like it came this close to being a kissing scene. 

Modifié par Crossroads_Wanderer, 06 avril 2011 - 11:03 .

[Foryou]

I read this before and yeah i found yahtzee interesting and his point that it's just a game that it means nothing about the real you. The part of DA2 that bugged me was that EVERYONE was bisexual, I was fine with that in DA:O Zervan and Leliana were bi (one of each gender) but just having everyone was just pushing it for me.

[Sjofn]

Darth Krytie wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

I never even considered it ambiguity. It makes perfect sense to me that he'd mention it to a man to see if there's a possiblity that he's interested while not saying it to a woman.
Anders is already a character who omits truths when it's not necesarry to reveal them.

In context, though, it would make perfect sense for him to tell a female PC that the man he just had to kill was a lover and not just somebody he knew.  At that point, Anders seems all about self-disclosure.  "Hey, I'm an abomination dontcha know!"

In fact, it makes less sense to me that he'd be testing the waters with any Hawke- right after killing his lover.  It just seems odd.

I might be misremembering, but he calls Karl his first...so, I got the sense that the sexual part of their relationship was not current. Even if a strong friendship and intimacy remained.

I think he even says that part of their relationship was long past or something. In any case, the relationship is definitely over, I'm surprised people think they were still together in that sense.

[Blacklash93]

Foryou wrote...

I read this before and yeah i found yahtzee interesting and his point that it's just a game that it means nothing about the real you. The part of DA2 that bugged me was that EVERYONE was bisexual, I was fine with that in DA:O Zervan and Leliana were bi (one of each gender) but just having everyone was just pushing it for me.

Fenris and Merrill aren't definitively bi. You can choose to interpret them however you like.

It's fanservice and its options for more players. I frankly don't give a damn what characters' sexuality is, no matter how unrealistic, as long as they're interesting. It doesn't bother me like it's my problem.

[Sanguinerin]

I think the confusion is the addition of a line about Karl only if you're playing as a male. If Anders loved Karl, who he had to kill after being made tranquil, then that's something my female Hawke would have liked to experience as well. The fact that he loves Karl enough to mention him in that way only to a male Hawke is what I find interesting here. My female Hawke would have never believed them to be lovers once, and I haven't played a male to see exactly how the dialogue plays out.

I mean--if I just killed my last lover, it's likely going to come up whether my next lover is a female or a male when I begin a new romance. Adding it only to plays with male Hawke does seem more like his attraction to males is hidden from female plays, thereby making him appear straight to her and not straight to a male Hawke.

I, of course, can't speak for a male Hawke run because I haven't played it. However, I would have liked to share in his pain at having very recently lost a lover despite what gender that former lover was, and despite what gender my Hawke was.

[Cutlass Jack]

As a male Hawke I never got any mention of the lover thing. The only way I even knew that variation existed was because my wife was talking about it from her playthrough and I had her replay it for me. But her male Hawke was flirty with him.

[Addai]

Sjofn wrote...

Darth Krytie wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

I never even considered it ambiguity. It makes perfect sense to me that he'd mention it to a man to see if there's a possiblity that he's interested while not saying it to a woman.
Anders is already a character who omits truths when it's not necesarry to reveal them.

In context, though, it would make perfect sense for him to tell a female PC that the man he just had to kill was a lover and not just somebody he knew.  At that point, Anders seems all about self-disclosure.  "Hey, I'm an abomination dontcha know!"

In fact, it makes less sense to me that he'd be testing the waters with any Hawke- right after killing his lover.  It just seems odd.

I might be misremembering, but he calls Karl his first...so, I got the sense that the sexual part of their relationship was not current. Even if a strong friendship and intimacy remained.

I think he even says that part of their relationship was long past or something. In any case, the relationship is definitely over, I'm surprised people think they were still together in that sense.

I don't know about "people," but I wasn't.  The point is that he just killed him.  I would think it would be something you would bring up if you're flirting with someone new- which is, as I said, kind of weird and ick in itself.

[Perles75]

"So I like to think I'm sexually secure enough to role play as a gay man."

I think it couldn't be said better than this.

[Sjofn]

Addai67 wrote...

Sjofn wrote...

Darth Krytie wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

I never even considered it ambiguity. It makes perfect sense to me that he'd mention it to a man to see if there's a possiblity that he's interested while not saying it to a woman.
Anders is already a character who omits truths when it's not necesarry to reveal them.

In context, though, it would make perfect sense for him to tell a female PC that the man he just had to kill was a lover and not just somebody he knew.  At that point, Anders seems all about self-disclosure.  "Hey, I'm an abomination dontcha know!"

In fact, it makes less sense to me that he'd be testing the waters with any Hawke- right after killing his lover.  It just seems odd.

I might be misremembering, but he calls Karl his first...so, I got the sense that the sexual part of their relationship was not current. Even if a strong friendship and intimacy remained.

I think he even says that part of their relationship was long past or something. In any case, the relationship is definitely over, I'm surprised people think they were still together in that sense.

I don't know about "people," but I wasn't.  The point is that he just killed him.  I would think it would be something you would bring up if you're flirting with someone new- which is, as I said, kind of weird and ick in itself.

Bring up he wasn't just a friend, sure, but people keep talking like they were currently lovers, and he pretty much explicitly states they were not. That's the only part I am surprised people miss, not the weirdness of him being cool with flirting just after murderknifing someone he cared about, lover or otherwise.

[dantares83]

maybe he is afraid that by revealing he is open to doing the deed with men, it will shut off any doors with femHawke...

I mean he still does not know her well yet and for all he knows, she could be homophobic.. why reveal a thing of your past (potentially lowering your chances of scoring with fem Hawke) when she never actually asks... He knows that it will be femHawke to love for now, Karl is dead and not longer relevant.. I am sure that if one day, femHawke probes his relationship with Karl and if he truly loves her, he will come clean.. it just that we never see...

and of course he have to reveal it to maleHawke.. i mean the population of gay (bi) men are still very much lower so he would have to tell maleHawke that he is interested... if not, there might not be any chance... coz maleHawke could be a shy guy that would never openly ask someone their sexuality...

[wright1978]

My first reaction to Anders flirting was to try and find the neutral trapdoor. After a bit of thought though i liked the fact that it wasn't available. On my playthrough i certainly felt Anders was gay while merill & anders were straight and Isabela was more open minded. I like the fact that on another plythrough my perceptions of those characters might change alongside my actions. That doesn't mean they are all bi in a playthrough but just that theres the possibility that their sexuality might be different on a different playthrough.

[Demon Velsper]

David Gaider wrote...

Demon Velsper wrote...
And this telemetry is from DA:O? The game that had an achievement/trophy for romancing all characters? I can tell you this much: had the game not required Zevran romance for 100% trophies you would have had at least one less male/male romance in your telemetry.

I don't doubt that's a part of it, and we're aware of that, but considering Zevran need not be romanced by a male character in order to get the achievement anyone who did so "unwillingly" has only themselves to blame.

It wasn't unwilling, it was a concious choice of convienence. I don't oppose homosexuality I just don't engage in it personally. For DA:O it was simply easier than starting a new playthrough as a female, which I don't particulary enjoy doing.

Irony is of course that I had to do that for Alistair anyway so the joke's on me so I kinda wish they'd all been gay in DA:O to save me that partial playthrough. But if the telemetry included gender of the player that would then have told you "this male player enjoys playing as a girl" even though that's no really true, it was simply something that needed doing at the time.

[frylock23]

Ok, Fenris, Merril and Anders are only bi in a meta-game sense. They were written to play as believably straight up one orientation or the other.

Isabela and Zevran were truly bi in the game. No matter what gender you play or how that PC swings, they make no secret that they will swing with whomever floats their boat.

Maybe we should call Fenris, Merril and Anders ambisexual, meaning that they are intended to play out in any manner the PC wishes.

Also, on another note: Why is it that the two truly bisexual characters are also like the village bicycle (everyone's had a go)?  Is there a way to include a truly bisexual character that isn't looking to sleep with anyone, anywhere?

Modifié par frylock23, 07 avril 2011 - 08:06 .

[Addai]

dantares83 wrote...

maybe he is afraid that by revealing he is open to doing the deed with men, it will shut off any doors with femHawke... 

And is that the kind of woman he'd want anyway?

I'm sure there was some sort of rationale as to why the dialogues run as they do, but it doesn't make a lot of sense to me.  It also seems that with females he's much more "don't come near me, I'll hurt you."   I mean, way to come on to a girl.  lol  If he was really all that concerned about impressing female Hawke, shouldn't he be downplaying the whole Justice thing too?

[The Angry One]

Addai67 wrote...

dantares83 wrote...

maybe he is afraid that by revealing he is open to doing the deed with men, it will shut off any doors with femHawke... 

And is that the kind of woman he'd want anyway?

In Anders' case? Probably, yes. He has enough indignation in his life without risking a relationship with a woman he likes. 
Like I've said it all comes down to personality and in this case it fits Anders' personality.

[Parrk]

The only thing that bothers me about DA2 romances at all is that there is not cuddle/sob cut scene when Liandra dies.

I've never romanced Merrill as a manhawke (or anyone else at all). I know that I am missing a lot of stellar dialogue, but I picked my fave early on and cannot fathom her wearing green after early act 2.

Her and femHawkes lesbian romance is bloody perfect (except for the weird ankle-underwear...that freaks me out). Neither of them ever give any indication of their "sexuality", but rather they seem to be just two people who absolutely adore one another.

very well done.

[Addai]

The Angry One wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

dantares83 wrote...

maybe he is afraid that by revealing he is open to doing the deed with men, it will shut off any doors with femHawke... 

And is that the kind of woman he'd want anyway?

In Anders' case? Probably, yes. He has enough indignation in his life without risking a relationship with a woman he likes. 
Like I've said it all comes down to personality and in this case it fits Anders' personality.

You think he'd want a woman who would reject him if she knew he had slept with men?  But she's somehow ok with the whole abomination thing?  I just can't wrap my mind around that.

[The Angry One]

Addai67 wrote...

You think he'd want a woman who would reject him if she knew he had slept with men?  But she's somehow ok with the whole abomination thing?  I just can't wrap my mind around that.

It's not what I think, it's what I think Anders thinks.
And he may not think she's going to reject him outright because of that, but he just doesn't think it's information he absolutely needs to volunteer at that time.

[Camenae]

I would say Anders guessed right about my femHawke not necessarily wanting to know that he'd slept with Karl before. And no it's not a sleeping-with-a-man thing, it's a "urgh Anders...you can do better than that" thing.

[Trophonius]

The way I see it, Anders isn't all that subjective when you compare him to Fenris and Merrill. His relationship with Karl happened, regardless of whether you played as male Hawke or female Hawke. Personally, they should've kept that part of Anders' past with either gender. It only creates confusion and eliminates an aspect of his characterization. You're going to be spending 7 years traveling with this guy and you want him to be elusive about himself? Being strangers to each other for that long is really stretching reality. Karl was obviously someone who held a special place in his heart and even mentioned his desire to make him an apostate. I was under the impression that while they were no longer together, Anders still harbored lingering feelings for him.

[tmp7704]

Camenae wrote...

I would say Anders guessed right about my femHawke not necessarily wanting to know that he'd slept with Karl before. And no it's not a sleeping-with-a-man thing, it's a "urgh Anders...you can do better than that" thing.

Considering Hawke doesn't know first thing about what Karl was like when before he was made tranquil, that'd be quite... presumptuous of condescending of her, wouldn't it?

Modifié par tmp7704, 07 avril 2011 - 10:19 .