75 réponses à ce sujet

[Addai]

Threeparts wrote...

Let's not forget some of the first words we hear Elthina say to Sebastian: "Death is never justice." She never wanted him to kill anyone in revenge for his family's death, yet now he threatens to bring an army down on an entire city based on Hawke's decision.

Isn't it nice to know that Sebastian is howling with grief over a woman whose teachings he obviously never actually bothered to listen to?

Preachy little ****.

Before I played the scene with Sebastian in it, just from the forum rants I was expecting him to declare holy war on Kirkwall, but that's not really what he says.  He says that if Hawke continues to harbor Anders he'll bring an army to get Anders.  He's the only one in that scene who makes any sense because he focuses on the actual perpetrator and not the conflict at large.

[Rinji the Bearded]

Addai67 wrote...

Threeparts wrote...

Let's not forget some of the first words we hear Elthina say to Sebastian: "Death is never justice." She never wanted him to kill anyone in revenge for his family's death, yet now he threatens to bring an army down on an entire city based on Hawke's decision.

Isn't it nice to know that Sebastian is howling with grief over a woman whose teachings he obviously never actually bothered to listen to?

Preachy little ****.

Before I played the scene with Sebastian in it, just from the forum rants I was expecting him to declare holy war on Kirkwall, but that's not really what he says.  He says that if Hawke continues to harbor Anders he'll bring an army to get Anders.  He's the only one in that scene who makes any sense because he focuses on the actual perpetrator and not the conflict at large.

He says that if Hawke lets Anders go, he will bring back an army to destroy Kirkwall so that the maleficarum will have no place to rule.  Then he says that he will personally find Anders and kill him.

[phyreblade74]

I actually liked that Sebastian was the only one who stopped long enough to say, as everyone is arguing between Templars versus Mages, "Why are we arguing about the Rite of Annulment when the one who did this heinous thing is standing right HERE!?" Whatever my disinclinations about Sebastian were -- what the heck is a chaste marriage, anyway, huh? -- he at least offered up that much common sense when no one else did.

All the same, I myself was a bit perturbed I couldn't turn around and tell him, "Fine, then. YOU kill him, Sebastian. I'm tired of being the one who always has to do the crap work around here."

[errant_knight]

I was only irked that I had to use the murder knife. I may have thought Anders deserved to die, but as a long time character and possible friend, he should have gotten the quicker death of the giant execution sword. Of course, this way they can bring him back if they want. There's no coming back from decapitation. Still, a knife in the back is kind of a sleazy way to execute someone.

Modifié par errant_knight, 06 avril 2011 - 04:02 .

[Asdara]

I really thought that, if you took Sebastian down "Friendship" to get him to let go of revenge and his title and serve the Maker instead he should have stayed, however grudgingly, if it was agreed that Anders face SOME punishment / accountability later. You spend all that time talking him down from his pursuit of his family's throne and revenge into a more holy state only to have him toss it all in a heated moment at the end... doesn't really make you feel like you had any friendship with him at all to start with.

If you take him "Rivalry" it makes so much more sense that he takes a hard line of "Anders must die, a life for a life" and all of that. The Grand Cleric didn't believe that Death was Justice ever - if he honored her above his own ambition, he shouldn't be calling for blood - if he decided worldly things were more important, then he's clearly just being consistent.

Again, it just seems like the forced choice with no recourse and no rational option doesn't fit with the companionship system in this case.

[Eollodwyn]

errant_knight wrote...

How is it hypocritical? It's exactly the same as what he thought should happen to the mercenaries. He's never said or done any different. You might not agree with him, but there's no hypocrisy there. He didn't agree with Elthethia about the Flint Company, much as he respected her, and he won't agree if you spare Anders. It's entirely consistant.

I find it hypocritical because his behavior is in direct conflict with the teachings of his religion, despite his deep faith.  He can't claim to be as pious as he does and then demand that Anders be killed.  Yes, his behavior is consistant with his past actions, but it's not consistant with a religion that preaches so much peace and brotherhood. 

I was only irked that I had to use the murder knife. I may have thought
Anders deserved to die, but as a long time character and possible
friend, he should have gotten the quicker death of the giant execution
sword. Of course, this way they can bring him back if they want. There's
no coming back from decapitation. Still, a knife in the back is kind of
a sleazy way to execute someone.

social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/306/index/6864288/3

Probably not going to happen, and this makes me sad.  [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/crying.png[/smilie]

EDIT: Not to say that I'm sad some people will have their choice undone, but because this means Anders will likely never come back as more than a cameo.  Since he and my Hawke ran away together and it seems like Hawke will be back at some point, I'd like to see him with her again.

Modifié par Eollodwyn, 06 avril 2011 - 05:41 .

[errant_knight]

Eollodwyn wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

How is it hypocritical? It's exactly the same as what he thought should happen to the mercenaries. He's never said or done any different. You might not agree with him, but there's no hypocrisy there. He didn't agree with Elthethia about the Flint Company, much as he respected her, and he won't agree if you spare Anders. It's entirely consistant.

I find it hypocritical because his behavior is in direct conflict with the teachings of his religion, despite his deep faith.  He can't claim to be as pious as he does and then demand that Anders be killed.  Yes, his behavior is consistant with his past actions, but it's not consistant with a religion that preaches so much peace and brotherhood. 

It's still not hypocritical. It just means that Sebastian is a flawed priest. I'm sure he's be the first to acknowledge that if you could mention it. He and the Grand Cleric come into conflict several times over that very thing and in exactly this area.

[Zjarcal]

Eollodwyn wrote...

Zjarcal wrote...

Eollodwyn wrote...

If I recall correctly, Hepler said that she likes to think that a part of Anders was indeed hoping you would kill him, and one of his banters with Isabela kinda confirms it.  I can never bring myself to do it, though.  Guess I'm just not that selfless. 

I do remember Hepler saying that, although I don't recall anything about the banter. Although this one seems ominous...

• Anders: There is justice in the world.
• Isabela: Is there? You want to free the mages. Let's say you do, but to get there, you kill a bunch of innocent people.
• Isabela: What about them? Don't they then deserve justice?
• Anders: Yes.
• Isabela: And then what? Where does it end?
• Isabela: It's like a bar brawl. People are continuously pulled into the fray, and nobody remembers why it started.
• Isabela: Justice is an idea. It makes sense in a world of ideas, but not in our world.

That was exactly the one I was talking about.  It's not a blatant "I want to die," but it certainly gave me pause.  In my game in particular it came after he had already planted the bomb, so hearing it just broke my heart.

You could of course interpret that banter differently, but I think it points to his wanting to die for his crime.

Oh, I do interpret that way too! I just meant that I didn't remember that Hepler had mentioned any banters.

About Sebastian's behavior... well, if there's one thing I learned in the game was to not take anything he promised too seriously. 

[Addai]

Eollodwyn wrote...

I find it hypocritical because his behavior is in direct conflict with the teachings of his religion, despite his deep faith.  He can't claim to be as pious as he does and then demand that Anders be killed.  Yes, his behavior is consistant with his past actions, but it's not consistant with a religion that preaches so much peace and brotherhood. 

Just as in most RL religions, there appears to be a range of opinions among Andrastians about violent justice.  Elthina and Sebastian are presenting two different views, I don't know that we can call either "canonical Andrastian."  In fact I'd say that Elthina is the exception.  The Chantry has its holy wars, and don't appear to be anti execution.

[Eollodwyn]

errant_knight wrote...

Eollodwyn wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

How is it hypocritical? It's exactly the same as what he thought should happen to the mercenaries. He's never said or done any different. You might not agree with him, but there's no hypocrisy there. He didn't agree with Elthethia about the Flint Company, much as he respected her, and he won't agree if you spare Anders. It's entirely consistant.

I find it hypocritical because his behavior is in direct conflict with the teachings of his religion, despite his deep faith.  He can't claim to be as pious as he does and then demand that Anders be killed.  Yes, his behavior is consistant with his past actions, but it's not consistant with a religion that preaches so much peace and brotherhood. 

It's still not hypocritical. It just means that Sebastian is a flawed priest. I'm sure he's be the first to acknowledge that if you could mention it. He and the Grand Cleric come into conflict several times over that very thing and in exactly this area.

*sighs*  Shall we just agree to disagree then?

[Addai]

RinjiRenee wrote...
He says that if Hawke lets Anders go, he will bring back an army to destroy Kirkwall so that the maleficarum will have no place to rule.  Then he says that he will personally find Anders and kill him.

Hm, I only recall him saying that he'd come back for Anders.  Though that makes sense.  Leliana says the Divine is also concerned that mages not rule Kirkwall.

[errant_knight]

Eollodwyn wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

Eollodwyn wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

How is it hypocritical? It's exactly the same as what he thought should happen to the mercenaries. He's never said or done any different. You might not agree with him, but there's no hypocrisy there. He didn't agree with Elthethia about the Flint Company, much as he respected her, and he won't agree if you spare Anders. It's entirely consistant.

I find it hypocritical because his behavior is in direct conflict with the teachings of his religion, despite his deep faith.  He can't claim to be as pious as he does and then demand that Anders be killed.  Yes, his behavior is consistant with his past actions, but it's not consistant with a religion that preaches so much peace and brotherhood. 

It's still not hypocritical. It just means that Sebastian is a flawed priest. I'm sure he's be the first to acknowledge that if you could mention it. He and the Grand Cleric come into conflict several times over that very thing and in exactly this area.

*sighs*  Shall we just agree to disagree then?

Certainly, although we could have done it on a more pleasant note without the condescending sigh.

[Eollodwyn]

errant_knight wrote...

Eollodwyn wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

Eollodwyn wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

How is it hypocritical? It's exactly the same as what he thought should happen to the mercenaries. He's never said or done any different. You might not agree with him, but there's no hypocrisy there. He didn't agree with Elthethia about the Flint Company, much as he respected her, and he won't agree if you spare Anders. It's entirely consistant.

I find it hypocritical because his behavior is in direct conflict with the teachings of his religion, despite his deep faith.  He can't claim to be as pious as he does and then demand that Anders be killed.  Yes, his behavior is consistant with his past actions, but it's not consistant with a religion that preaches so much peace and brotherhood. 

It's still not hypocritical. It just means that Sebastian is a flawed priest. I'm sure he's be the first to acknowledge that if you could mention it. He and the Grand Cleric come into conflict several times over that very thing and in exactly this area.

*sighs*  Shall we just agree to disagree then?

Certainly, although we could have done it on a more pleasant note without the condescending sigh.

It was a sigh of amicable defeat, not condescention...

[Rinji the Bearded]

Addai67 wrote...

RinjiRenee wrote...
He says that if Hawke lets Anders go, he will bring back an army to destroy Kirkwall so that the maleficarum will have no place to rule.  Then he says that he will personally find Anders and kill him.

Hm, I only recall him saying that he'd come back for Anders.  Though that makes sense.  Leliana says the Divine is also concerned that mages not rule Kirkwall.

I don't know if the dialogue varies but I remember him sneering at my mage hawke and being RAWR MALEFICARUM.

I wonder if it's the dialogue he says AFTER you let Anders go, now that I think about it...

Modifié par RinjiRenee, 06 avril 2011 - 07:05 .

[errant_knight]

Eollodwyn wrote...
 It was a sigh of amicable defeat, not condescention...

Lol! My apologies. I've been getting raked over the coals so often lately, I guess I'm starting to expect it. Amicable is good.

Modifié par errant_knight, 06 avril 2011 - 07:16 .

[Eollodwyn]

errant_knight wrote...

Eollodwyn wrote...
 It was a sigh of amicable defeat, not condescention...

Lol! My apologies. I've been getting raked over the coals so often lately, I guess I'm starting to expect it. Amicable is good.

   I'm glad we cleared it up!  I was starting to feel awful guilty.  

[errant_knight]

Eollodwyn wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

Eollodwyn wrote...
 It was a sigh of amicable defeat, not condescention...

Lol! My apologies. I've been getting raked over the coals so often lately, I guess I'm starting to expect it. Amicable is good.

   I'm glad we cleared it up!  I was starting to feel awful guilty.  

And now that's me! Lol!

[Bekkael]

errant_knight wrote...

I was only irked that I had to use the murder knife. I may have thought Anders deserved to die, but as a long time character and possible friend, he should have gotten the quicker death of the giant execution sword. Of course, this way they can bring him back if they want. There's no coming back from decapitation. Still, a knife in the back is kind of a sleazy way to execute someone.

^ This. I think even if you choose to kill him, he wouldn't necessarily stay dead. How many times in DA:O did Wynn collapse (drop dead) only to have her "benevolent" spirit revive her? Fade spirits want bodies to inhabit, whether they are good, bad, or indifferent.  Anders Justice powers have the ability to raise fallen party members, so why not himself?  ...just sayin'.

[Bekkael]

Eollodwyn wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

How is it hypocritical? It's exactly the same as what he thought should happen to the mercenaries. He's never said or done any different. You might not agree with him, but there's no hypocrisy there. He didn't agree with Elthethia about the Flint Company, much as he respected her, and he won't agree if you spare Anders. It's entirely consistant.

I find it hypocritical because his behavior is in direct conflict with the teachings of his religion, despite his deep faith.  He can't claim to be as pious as he does and then demand that Anders be killed.  Yes, his behavior is consistant with his past actions, but it's not consistant with a religion that preaches so much peace and brotherhood. 

I was only irked that I had to use the murder knife. I may have thought
Anders deserved to die, but as a long time character and possible
friend, he should have gotten the quicker death of the giant execution
sword. Of course, this way they can bring him back if they want. There's
no coming back from decapitation. Still, a knife in the back is kind of
a sleazy way to execute someone.

social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/306/index/6864288/3

Probably not going to happen, and this makes me sad.  [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/crying.png[/smilie]

EDIT: Not to say that I'm sad some people will have their choice undone, but because this means Anders will likely never come back as more than a cameo.  Since he and my Hawke ran away together and it seems like Hawke will be back at some point, I'd like to see him with her again.

Never mind, that response from DG crushes all my hopes for Anders to come back from the murder knife. All the more reason for me to never kill him on my more serious playthroughs.

[Chignon]

Bekkael wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

I was only irked that I had to use the murder knife. I may have thought Anders deserved to die, but as a long time character and possible friend, he should have gotten the quicker death of the giant execution sword. Of course, this way they can bring him back if they want. There's no coming back from decapitation. Still, a knife in the back is kind of a sleazy way to execute someone.

^ This. I think even if you choose to kill him, he wouldn't necessarily stay dead. How many times in DA:O did Wynn collapse (drop dead) only to have her "benevolent" spirit revive her? Fade spirits want bodies to inhabit, whether they are good, bad, or indifferent.  Anders Justice powers have the ability to raise fallen party members, so why not himself?  ...just sayin'.

Actually, no:

David Gaider wrote...

Wulphe wrote...
So.. a sword through the chest compared to a
dagger in the back. If Anders survives this, does that mean if you kill
him in during The Last Straw, he survives that too? Is he just playing
dead? Or is he not immortal?

I'd *really* love a dev post here.

No, he's quite dead. We could have gone to more elaborate lengths to show you... ensuring... that he was dead, but I think it got the point across.

I mean, sure, I guess if we wanted to we could come up with some elaborate explanation as to how he survived anyhow... but that's true with anyone. In this case, particularly since Anders was fully willing to die, I don't think having him live after all that would be very cool.

[Bekkael]

Chignon wrote...

Bekkael wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

I was only irked that I had to use the murder knife. I may have thought Anders deserved to die, but as a long time character and possible friend, he should have gotten the quicker death of the giant execution sword. Of course, this way they can bring him back if they want. There's no coming back from decapitation. Still, a knife in the back is kind of a sleazy way to execute someone.

^ This. I think even if you choose to kill him, he wouldn't necessarily stay dead. How many times in DA:O did Wynn collapse (drop dead) only to have her "benevolent" spirit revive her? Fade spirits want bodies to inhabit, whether they are good, bad, or indifferent.  Anders Justice powers have the ability to raise fallen party members, so why not himself?  ...just sayin'.

Actually, no:

David Gaider wrote...

Wulphe wrote...
So.. a sword through the chest compared to a
dagger in the back. If Anders survives this, does that mean if you kill
him in during The Last Straw, he survives that too? Is he just playing
dead? Or is he not immortal?

I'd *really* love a dev post here.

No, he's quite dead. We could have gone to more elaborate lengths to show you... ensuring... that he was dead, but I think it got the point across.

I mean, sure, I guess if we wanted to we could come up with some elaborate explanation as to how he survived anyhow... but that's true with anyone. In this case, particularly since Anders was fully willing to die, I don't think having him live after all that would be very cool.

Yep, I saw that after I posted! Oh well, that's what fanfic is for...

[arcsquad12]

Anders wants to be a martyr. Letting him live is punishment enough. And Kirkwall is a lost cause, let Starkhaven smash it to pieces.

[ReallyRue]

Considering the shock it must have been for Sebastian, I'm hardly surprised he reacted like that. It's a bit like Leandra blaming Hawke for Carver/Bethany's death. In the heat of the moment, things are said.

I should think that with a little more thought, maybe he would consider (seeing as he spent most of the time meditating on right and wrong) that Elthina wouldn't leave Kirkwall when Leliana told her to, because she wanted to protect the city from destruction. Sebastian bringing an army against the city would go against the very reason she stayed and died in Kirkwall.

[errant_knight]

Yeah, I doubt he really would bring an army against Kirkwall except under extraordinary circumstances, say, the templars pull out and Kirkwall becomes a stronghold of blood mages. But I also think he'd keep trying to kill Anders, and nothing could make him stop until he'd succeeded.

[ReallyRue]

errant_knight wrote...

Yeah, I doubt he really would bring an army against Kirkwall except under extraordinary circumstances, say, the templars pull out and Kirkwall becomes a stronghold of blood mages. But I also think he'd keep trying to kill Anders, and nothing could make him stop until he'd succeeded.

Yeah, I reckon the hunting Anders thing is sincere, but the bringing an army thing was probably grief/shock talking. It's unfair to blame him for that.