39 réponses à ce sujet

[RPGrogue]

 is to smart for its audience. The story is is masterfully written as a character drama. Granted it is true choices do not matter as much, game play is very different and the inventory is less engaging. Despite its down falls some seem to have the story is THE BEST story Bioware has ever written. To quote people who don't understand the story, " Its not focused, its like a bunch of stories mashed together..." well sorta.
Bioware has written a story that seems to prove far to smart for it's own audience. The has the underlying theme of loosing control, and this is very clearly shown by the city of Kirkwall falling apart. First it gets hit by a wave of refuges, then the Quin rise up, then mages and the templers duke it out. The story also features the games characters to be more in the for front of this game. In origins characters were you b*tch, and did what you want. In DA 2 they take matters into their own hands, crafting their own stories. It shows the struggle of people, and what the human mind is able of justifying in a crisis situation. The characters in this story are much more well written, but granted we do not get as much time with them as in the last game. This game is about people in crisis.
But people wanted a "save the world" game. To be honest, Bioware always had good stories... but never great. They used the same thing over and over again, hero A joins group B to save D from E, while doing some other stuff on the way that didn't really need to be there. Characters is what I always thought Bioware was great at. This is a great story, but the video game community just was not ready for it...

Modifié par RPGrogue, 06 avril 2011 - 02:43 .

[TJPags]

Thanks for sharing.

[RPGrogue]

TJPags wrote...

Thanks for sharing.

Np, thanks for contributing 

[LadyJaneGrey]

RPGrogue wrote...

 In origins characters were you b*tch, and did what you want.

Morrigan would like to have a word with you. 

[TJPags]

No, really, thanks for sharing.

I enjoy being called dumb, especially when its said so eloquently, with so many spelling and grammatical errors.

[RPGrogue]

LadyJaneGrey wrote...

RPGrogue wrote...

 In origins characters were you b*tch, and did what you want.

Morrigan would like to have a word with you. 

That is true, sorta. She wanted you to do things but you chose if she got to do them. Morrigan had an agenda, but she needed you, so she was under your control. Anders on the other hand blew up the chantry with or without you, that shows he is not your companion but an individual.

[dgcatanisiri]

I agree with you - the characters were the story, as opposed to a tale of saving the world. And since every pervious game from BioWare has been about preventing the destruction of civilization as we know it, that's what was expected from DA2. But this was a more intimate story, which probably threw the players expecting another tale like that. Personally, I like it when I get something different - stagnation will kill any genre or franchise far faster than taking a chance on trying something new.

I'd argue, though, with saying that it's 'too smart' for its audience. 'Mismarketed,' I think is a more appropriate term. It was predominantly expected that the 'save the world' story would happen, as opposed to a more intimate one, and likely due to the fact that marketing showed it to be showing the major change in the here and now - the destiny trailer, making such a deal out of the qunari threat when they are out of the picture by the endgame. So these players see a game that sets up a world-changing conflict... and then ends and react in surprise and anger because 'they've been lied to.'

[RPGrogue]

TJPags wrote...

No, really, thanks for sharing.

I enjoy being called dumb, especially when its said so eloquently, with so many spelling and grammatical errors.

See that would be helpful, pointing out errors is my writing. You on the other hand just like to put out snarky remarks because.. well because you do not have anything intelligent or even helpful in a topic about in-depth story telling. So just go away if your not going to talk about the topic.

[RPGrogue]

dgcatanisiri wrote...

I agree with you - the characters were the story, as opposed to a tale of saving the world. And since every pervious game from BioWare has been about preventing the destruction of civilization as we know it, that's what was expected from DA2. But this was a more intimate story, which probably threw the players expecting another tale like that. Personally, I like it when I get something different - stagnation will kill any genre or franchise far faster than taking a chance on trying something new.

I'd argue, though, with saying that it's 'too smart' for its audience. 'Mismarketed,' I think is a more appropriate term. It was predominantly expected that the 'save the world' story would happen, as opposed to a more intimate one, and likely due to the fact that marketing showed it to be showing the major change in the here and now - the destiny trailer, making such a deal out of the qunari threat when they are out of the picture by the endgame. So these players see a game that sets up a world-changing conflict... and then ends and react in surprise and anger because 'they've been lied to.'

It was very mismarketed, and anyone who had just seen trailers would be very miss lead I agree. But the hardcore fan of the first were warned it was a much more personal story, and the 'save the world' thing was out the window, so they should have seen something like this coming. 

[ransompendragon]

My issue is not with the story but with the presentation of that story. Why everyone had to go bat **** insane at the end and the particular--I don't even know what to call them -- special effects? -- it wasn't story it was some slide into -- I don't even know what to call it -- what Anders did made no sense -- but what Meredith and Orsinio did? And not even what they did (although it was too far out) -- the way it was visually presented....You are kidding right?

[BanksHector]

I enjoyed the story for the most part, but they could of done things a lot better in the game. Each of the companions seem to be more real this game, but that came at a great cost because they lacked the depth of the characters from Origins.

So the overall story is great and is the idea type of story that I would want because it was personal and not some save the world. The fact that you lack clear direction other then trying to get money makes Act 1 so much fun to me. You have a idea of what the story may turn out to be, but you do not have it laid out for you in the beginning like you did in Origins. Act 2 was amazing and I wish they would of made that part of the story longer because to me it was the strongest part of the game/story. Act 3 was a great idea, but they failed at telling that part of the story and made me rate the overall story as very good instead of great.

Modifié par BanksHector, 06 avril 2011 - 03:14 .

[ModernMan2009]

Its a great origins story of the hero Hawk and the storytelling mechanism of using Verric to narrate was smart. The story however is pasted onto a dumbed down action RPG designed primarily for consoles and young teens, its like trying to appreciate Shakespeare's Hamlet while its being preformed at a WWF tournament.

[RPGrogue]

ransompendragon wrote...

My issue is not with the story but with the presentation of that story. Why everyone had to go bat **** insane at the end and the particular--I don't even know what to call them -- special effects? -- it wasn't story it was some slide into -- I don't even know what to call it -- what Anders did made no sense -- but what Meredith and Orsinio did? And not even what they did (although it was too far out) -- the way it was visually presented....You are kidding right?

What Meredith did, was strange. The whole idol thing was a tad silly, but her becoming more strict made sense. Orsinio was scared for his life, so he went all abomination on our a**. What Anders did was fantastic (story wise, I am not a terrorist) he blew up the chantry to start a war, because he knew otherwise nothing would ever get resolved. The way it was presented? I agree with you

[Maria Caliban]

Act 2 works wonderfully. Act 1 is average cRPG material. Act 3 is a wash.

Themes do not make a good story. They can add depth to a story, but you still need a cohesive plot and fleshed out characters.

TJPags wrote...

I enjoy being called dumb, especially when its said so eloquently, with so many spelling and grammatical errors.

I laughed.

[ThePasserby]

One of the oldest tricks in the book - accusing people as being stupid for disagreeing with you, or in this case, not liking the same thing you do. Nice try, but no cigar.

And I'll be happy to get off your precious thread too. I never feel compelled to debate with someone with bad spelling.

[TJPags]

RPGrogue wrote...

TJPags wrote...

No, really, thanks for sharing.

I enjoy being called dumb, especially when its said so eloquently, with so many spelling and grammatical errors.

See that would be helpful, pointing out errors is my writing. You on the other hand just like to put out snarky remarks because.. well because you do not have anything intelligent or even helpful in a topic about in-depth story telling. So just go away if your not going to talk about the topic.

Oh, you want commentary?  Then let me give you commentary:

The story was a nice idea, but it failed miserably in execution.

We were provided with a family, and about 5 minutes after meeting said family, one of them dies.  Oh whoa is me, I just lost somebody who is supposed to be my brother/sister . . .and care.  Might have been nice if we actually interacted with them.

Moving on, we meet out Uncle.  A sour, disreputable human being who essentially stole the family title and pissed it down a drain.  Another stain on society I'm supposed to care about.

Companions . . .lets see, we have the dwarf who gets our money back, talks us into joining his brothers expedition.  He actually has a reason to stick around for a while.

Next up, we have Fenris.  He sets us up to be killed by several angry people to provide himself with a diversion.  After we defeat the angry people, and learn we were set up, he says, "Oh, and by the way, come help me kill some more people, mmkay?  Cool".  So, yea, we're basically a chump to this guy.

Isabela . . .walk into a bar, watch her kick some dudes ass, next thing you know, we're going with her to "duel" someone for reasons she doesn't explain.  Ummm, okay?  And hey, after doing that - killing several people in the process - she decides she's going to tag along for a while.  Ummm, okay.

Merrill - Hey Dalish, weird witch lady wanted me to bring this to you.  Oh, thanks . .being it to the top of the mountain, Merrill will show you what to do.  And when you're done, take her with you - we don't want her anymore.  Now I'm picking up someone else's rejects?

Sebastian somewhat makes sense.  His family was killed, he wants to basically hire mercenaries, we do the job, he pays us.  Then leaves, and hires us again later.

Anders - we walk in, he screams about us disturbing his sanctuary.  Chill, dude. And whats with the glowing eyes?  Oh, you're an abomination.  Umm, okay.  What's that?  Break into the Chantry at night, and break a mage out of the Circle.  Varric, you sure we can't find this entrance ourselves?  Oh, sorry, you're right, we need him around - SOMEone has to blow up the Chantry later, after all.  Lying to us and using us in the process.

Then they basically only talk to you when they want something from you.  Oh, did I mention, my remaining sibling, who by now I might be beginning to feel something for, is now taken away from us.  Don't see them again until the big insane finale.

Mom gets killed by one of many insane mages in the City.  Shocking, yes, but again, another character that hardly interacts with us.  So, shocking, but not heartwrenching.

We get to the part where the Qunari attack - now, tell me, why do I care about Kirkwall?  Why can't I just leave, maybe go to Starkhaven?  I mean, I have money now, right?  A title?  I can't leave?  Oh, yes, I must become the Champion.  Okay, fine, I'll kill the Arishok.

Yay, I'm the Champion.  Anyone listen to me?  No?  Oh, okay.  Wait, now I have to decide whether to flout all authority and defy the Templars, and save the mages - mages who have basically been trying to kill me all game, and led by a man who helped the guy who killed my mother.  Or, kill all the mages for something my abomination of a lying, using companion did.  Which nobody seems to care about.  Meredith, the culprit is right there, sitting on that crate, don't you see him?  No?  Well, can I leave now, let you nuts kill each other or sing kumbaya or have an orgy or whatever?  No?  Okay, fine I choose <insert choice here>  Now what?  Oh, wait, the leader of the group I'm supporting loses their mind and attacks me too.  Yay.

Sure, the companions have their own agenda.  But why am I helping them?  Why do I care about them?  Seriously, they're like that person who only calls you when all their real friends are busy and they need a ride someplace.  They don't even give you gas money.

So, yea, nice idea.  Horribly poor execution.

[ashwind]

RPGrogue wrote...
Bioware has written a story that seems to prove far to smart for it's own audience. The has the underlying theme of loosing control, and this is very clearly shown by the city of Kirkwall falling apart. First it gets hit by a wave of refuges, then the Quin rise up, then mages and the templers duke it out. The story also features the games characters to be more in the for front of this game. In origins characters were you b*tch, and did what you want. In DA 2 they take matters into their own hands, crafting their own stories. It shows the struggle of people, and what the human mind is able of justifying in a crisis situation.

Well, I would not put it that way. In Origins, you are the Warden and your companions are under your "command" in a way to fight the blight. In DA2, they are more like your friends.

In DAO, the Warden and his companions all had the same thing in mind - the blight. It is easier to relate to them in that way.

In DA2, your companions come to you and talk about themselves, their personal problems, etc. So it is harder to relate to them if you are not interested or if you do not pay attention.

As for Bioware writing a story that is too smart for its audience. I cannot disagree more. Bioware presented the whole story so badly that any brilliance of the story is lost to the audience.

Example:
Killing Bethany in the deep roads. It should be a very emotional moment (Good writing, great surprise) - especially for Hawke who has 100% friendship with a sister he had sworn to protect for all his life. The cinematic simply does no justice to what Hawke is going through and fail to bring out that "moment".

Hawke: How can I kill my own Sister...
Bethany: Because I ask you so.
Hawke: Oh ok. Since you put it that way. ~stab~
---End of Scene--

When Hawke went back home, I almost feel that it is only natural for Leandra to slap Hawke for loosing Bethany because she TOLD Hawke not to bring her but... the drama is underplayed again!
But no.... Leandra just... "Oh my poor baby" ~weep~
---End of Scene--

[ransompendragon]

I felt there was enough tension built up that a war could start and what Anders did made it very hard for me to stay on the side of the mages, although I did. From an RP point of view my Hawke probably should have actually done a 180 and decided to side with the Templars based solely on what Anders did. He was closest to Fenris, friends with Aveline and Varric. Rarely took Anders anywhere but felt loyalty to Bethany and brotherly affection for Merril (the usual mage in my party). Probably somewhat religous too.

Still, presentation ruined it for me.

[ransompendragon]

Why do I come to the forums for a single player game? Primarily for some sense of a shared experience (which I can get at home when my wife is playing the same game but not otherwise).

So, thanks TJPags. Well said.

[Alren]

A few plot holes

Act. 1
1: Hawke raises 50 gold to fund an expedition into the deep roads. He is essentially making money to spend in order to make money. It doesn't really make sense for him to rise a bunch of money for the goal of eventually making money.
2. The Mansion. Gamlen sells it to pay off gambling debts even though he never technically owned it in the first place. Which would be a problem if Hawke didn't conveniently slaughter all of the slavers in the house leaving it vacant. Maybe instead of raising money for the deep roads expedition, we use that gold to make appeals to the Viscount to get the estate reinstated to Mother.

The Deep Roads expedition concept was weak. There is no reason for Hawke to just stop raising money at 50 gold and trust Bartrand with it in order to go on an expedition that might get him killed. The discovery of the mansion belonging to mother seemed far more significant than the expedition.

Act 2 was actually the best part of the game. I'll skip to Act 3

Act 3:
1: Meredith getting the lyrium idol and making a sword out of it is completely against her character as a hard nosed Templar. Why would she ever do that in the first place? What was so wrong with her Templar issue blade? Why would she even get the idea in her head to turn a mysterious lyrium idol into a sword?

2. Orsino using blood magic and going crazy and attacking the Champion (if he sided with the mages) makes NO SENSE. The champion has proven that he can slaughter waves upon waves upon waves upon waves of templar soldiers. in fact the champion is so good at fighting large numbers of templars at this point that he could give all the circle mages more than enough to time to escape with their lives.

I understand that in order to ensure their ending is consistent and that both bosses are faced down,
they missed out on the connection to Champion's mothers death as a good cause to fight Orsino, maybe have it come to light that Orsino is responsible for what happened to Leandra.

also I know it has been said, but the PC and the companions get to use magic too much without penalty. Would have been interesting for mages to be restricted to night/wilds. no magic in kirkwall during the day. would have made more sense. also. having the PC use blood magic and no one seems to bring it up is really weak.

[Zetatrain]

With regards to the stories in DA:O and DA2

DA:O 's story is an example of a concept that was been done before many time (Lord of the Rings anyone), but executed masterfully.

DA2 is example of a story that has a more original concept, but could have used a bit more work on the execution part

To some degree the people who say that the story is a bit unfocused are right. In acts I and II the mage vs templar situation is presented as a minor conflict that will later become a major conflict. IMO, the problem is that the MvT conflict comes to a breaking point too quickly.

After the Qunari uprising, the vicount's death basically allows Meradith to start viciously cracking down on the mages and pushing them towards war. The problem is that this part of the story is only told to us through Varric in the cutscene before Act III. We do not actually get to witness the stuff that happened between Act II and Act III. By the time we reach Act III the mages and templars are already on the brink of war and it seems a bit too sudden. This could have been remedied if there were 4 acts instead of 3. So basically, the MvT situation should have been given more attention.

Now don't get me wrong, I love DA2, maybe not as much as DA:O, but I still think it has a good story with some very good themes and characters.

Overall DA2's story is a step in the right direction and if it had another 2 or 3 months of development it could have been better.

[BanksHector]

Alren wrote...

A few plot holes

Act. 1
1: Hawke raises 50 gold to fund an expedition into the deep roads. He is essentially making money to spend in order to make money. It doesn't really make sense for him to rise a bunch of money for the goal of eventually making money.
2. The Mansion. Gamlen sells it to pay off gambling debts even though he never technically owned it in the first place. Which would be a problem if Hawke didn't conveniently slaughter all of the slavers in the house leaving it vacant. Maybe instead of raising money for the deep roads expedition, we use that gold to make appeals to the Viscount to get the estate reinstated to Mother.

The Deep Roads expedition concept was weak. There is no reason for Hawke to just stop raising money at 50 gold and trust Bartrand with it in order to go on an expedition that might get him killed. The discovery of the mansion belonging to mother seemed far more significant than the expedition. 

The Deep Roads makes sense to me as an investment. You not only have a chance to make more money then you invest, but you have the chance to become famous if you find something of importance. Act 1 to me is about you trying to get status to protect yourself , your sister, or trying to not be a nobody. You are doing errands and stuff for people to get gold for the expedition but at the same time you are becoming more well known because each person you help will talk about your deeds, and that talk is going to help build your reputation towards everyone.

After you get back from the deep roads and rumors of what happen are spreading around, people know who you are, and it's not like who are you talking about? Since people know you from the stuff you do before you go into the expedition, it makes it more likely that *the higher up people* start to take notice and know you are someone that can get stuff done for them.

I am sure they could of done a better concept then the deep roads, but I just look at it as something like I said above so it works for me.

Act 3 is not worth the time of even talking about it for me.

Modifié par BanksHector, 06 avril 2011 - 04:36 .

[Zetatrain]

Alren wrote...

A few plot holes

Act. 1
1: Hawke raises 50 gold to fund an expedition into the deep roads. He is essentially making money to spend in order to make money. It doesn't really make sense for him to rise a bunch of money for the goal of eventually making money.
2. The Mansion. Gamlen sells it to pay off gambling debts even though he never technically owned it in the first place. Which would be a problem if Hawke didn't conveniently slaughter all of the slavers in the house leaving it vacant. Maybe instead of raising money for the deep roads expedition, we use that gold to make appeals to the Viscount to get the estate reinstated to Mother.

The Deep Roads expedition concept was weak. There is no reason for Hawke to just stop raising money at 50 gold and trust Bartrand with it in order to go on an expedition that might get him killed. The discovery of the mansion belonging to mother seemed far more significant than the expedition.

Act 2 was actually the best part of the game. I'll skip to Act 3

Act 3:
1: Meredith getting the lyrium idol and making a sword out of it is completely against her character as a hard nosed Templar. Why would she ever do that in the first place? What was so wrong with her Templar issue blade? Why would she even get the idea in her head to turn a mysterious lyrium idol into a sword?

2. Orsino using blood magic and going crazy and attacking the Champion (if he sided with the mages) makes NO SENSE. The champion has proven that he can slaughter waves upon waves upon waves upon waves of templar soldiers. in fact the champion is so good at fighting large numbers of templars at this point that he could give all the circle mages more than enough to time to escape with their lives.

I understand that in order to ensure their ending is consistent and that both bosses are faced down,
they missed out on the connection to Champion's mothers death as a good cause to fight Orsino, maybe have it come to light that Orsino is responsible for what happened to Leandra.

also I know it has been said, but the PC and the companions get to use magic too much without penalty. Would have been interesting for mages to be restricted to night/wilds. no magic in kirkwall during the day. would have made more sense. also. having the PC use blood magic and no one seems to bring it up is really weak.

Act 1
1) Its called making an investment.  Granted it does seem a little odd that after making 50 gold you would need to make more unless 50 gold isn't considered a lot in the dragon age universe.  While the deep roads expedtion is dangerous its has the possiblity of making a man set for life and since the Hawkes dont have any jobs or steady source of income (being refugees and all) the deep roads does not sound like a bad idea.  Also you can use the money from the expedition to buy back the estate and who knows how much that cost.  While I probably would not trust bartrend either, beggars can't be picky

Act 3
1) Well templars do use lyrium to fight mages so its not completely unreasonable, though it is a little odd that Meredith would use something potentially dangerous.  Then again she bought the thing before Act II so maybe she did excercise some caution before using it in act III

2) Orsino was simply pushed over the edge and became despreate, like many other mages.  Orsino became a Harvestor not because he wanted to attack the Champion, but because he wanted to kill meredith and the templars.  Unfortunately, becoming an abomination does not exactly allow one to retain their sanity. 

[Cyclone Prime]

I liked DA2 story
I LOVED DA:O story

Modifié par Cyclone Prime, 06 avril 2011 - 04:51 .

[Augustei]

I liked the story, it was the lack of control over it I didn't like lol. Like making major world changing choices to adopt it as our own story. Like who to make the kings of nations etc.