58 réponses à ce sujet

[Mr Ordinary]

manageri wrote...

The PC is innocent so obviously not.

Really?

What about the Luskans, would they not think that justice had been done?

Is their version of justice not as valid for them as the Neverwinter version is for the Neverwintans?

Again, you are thinking in absolutes, when the concept is relative. Also, justice is not 'good', but nor is it 'evil' (or it can be both). Those concepts are only viewed as such by the respective winners and losers in whatever is decided is 'just'.

[I_Raps]

virumor wrote...

But if Tyr really oversees any trial-by-combat and makes sure that the one who is in the right always wins, then why would Torio propose it in the first place?

This deserves an answer, even though it's lost among the big posts.

I think it's because Tyr doesn't intervene.  Tyr believes that Justice is a force in the multiverse and that the correct side WILL win.  He oversees to make sure everything is on the up and up.

Torio and her ilk don't believe.  She may suspect it could be true, but she's desperate at that point and willing to roll the dice.

[edit]

Mr Ordinary wrote...

What about the Luskans, would they not think that justice had been done?

Is their version of justice not as valid for them as the Neverwinter version is for the Neverwintans?

What I just wrote applies here, as well.  Clearly in the D&D universe worshippers of evil deities or principles have to positively reject the notions of what is Good even moreso than in our own mundane world where priests do not miraculously heal the sick and raise the dead.

Modifié par I_Raps, 05 mai 2011 - 10:56 .

[Mr Ordinary]

I_Raps wrote...

Mr Ordinary wrote...

What about the Luskans, would they not think that justice had been done?

Is their version of justice not as valid for them as the Neverwinter version is for the Neverwintans?

What I just wrote applies here, as well.  Clearly in the D&D universe worshippers of evil deities or principles have to positively reject the notions of what is Good even moreso than in our own mundane world where priests do not miraculously heal the sick and raise the dead.

Do 'evil' people in the FR universe consider themselves to be Evil, I_Raps?

There is a difference in 'Good'  or 'Evil' (with the capitals) and 'good' and 'evil'. From our perspective, we view a dichotomy of Good and Evil, but for the inhabitants of the FR universe whatever they believe,  is 'good' to them and whatever those who oppose them believe, is 'evil'.

Consider that those who are 'Evil' can also miraculously heal the sick and raise the dead. Surely this is 'good' for them?

I accept it is much simpler to view things in black and white - purely as Good and Evil. But it makes the FR universe far more interesting to consider the relative notions that exist and then attempt to justify your actions in that universe accordingly.

[I_Raps]

By "Good" there, I mean the alignment (and what those aligned deities profess).

p.s.  Some of the evil deities require no shades of gray.  Talona, Myrkul, etc.

Modifié par I_Raps, 05 mai 2011 - 11:21 .

[manageri]

The trial is about Ember. The PC did not kill those people. The PC is innocent. Convicting innocent people is the opposite of justice (especially when it's done knowingly).

Whether the luskans call what they're doing justice doesn't matter.

I never said justice always results in good, though that's usually the intended outcome overall. Rulers or societies that don't care about being good have little incentive to set up a system of justice.

[I_Raps]

manageri wrote...

The trial is about Ember. The PC did not kill those people. The PC is innocent. Convicting innocent people is the opposite of justice (especially when it's done knowingly).

Whether the luskans call what they're doing justice doesn't matter.

I never said justice always results in good, though that's usually the intended outcome overall. Rulers or societies that don't care about being good have little incentive to set up a system of justice.

The PC can't lose the Trial By Combat.  It's simply not possible.

I guarantee you the world will not go on if the Kalach Cha does not win.

(just like every other battle in the main storyline, by the way)

[Mr Ordinary]

I_Raps wrote...

By "Good" there, I mean the alignment ...

So was I.

"Good", as you (we) are using the term, is simply someone who chooses to oppose those who are "Evil", but a "Good" person may be either good or evil (or neutral). Luskans, for example, might concede they are "Evil", but are they evil?

"Good" and "Evil" are simply labels to separate sides, while good and evil are the actions you take in support of those sides.

Nasher Alagondar is Lawful Good, yet some of the decisions he makes are decidedly not-good, if not downright evil.

In a similar way, justice might be good, but it is neither Good nor Evil.

[Soresu]

virumor wrote...
As I recall, KOTOR had a similar trial, and upon losing the player would actually be executed.

IIRC in KotOR there was a trial called somethling like "Sunry Murder Trial" but it never executed the player upon losing, it executed an old war veteran named Sunry, a friend of Jolee. You had the option to find him guilty (which he actually was)and have him executed or imprisoned for life, or have him released even though knowing he was guilty.

[lofgren]

Mr Ordinary wrote...

manageri and lofgren,

Let's take a hypothetical scenario. The main character in the OC never swears fealty to the crown of Neverwinter, is sent to Luskan for trial, and is executed.

Is that justice?

Hint: Think "justice for who"?

I don't have to.

No, that is not justice.  For anybody.

Do you have a point?

Modifié par lofgren, 06 juin 2011 - 05:09 .