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[Justforvisit]

Hey everyone

I've finished Dragon Age Origins and also almost Awakening, and I've been reading this forums for a while now, and came across a few things I kinda wondered about

Please do not read further if you don't want spoilers.











In Short, these Things are:

1. Arl Eamon

I wonder why he is considered mostly so unpopular with most fans, in my opinion he's a righteous guy who only wants the best for Ferelden. I also often read that he is considered so unpopular for wanting to force Alistair on the Throne as King, but then again, the very same people also say they want to have Alistair on the throne theirself.

2. Teryn Loghain

Why do some people find him so sympathic? When you think about it, he's nothing more than a traitor, an opportunist and a liar. He abandons the king on the battlefield and leaves thousands of soldiers to their death, poisons Arl Eamon and lies to the people about what really happend in Ostagar.

When regarding all this, it seems quite unclever to spare his life and even recruit him to your squad, because most likely he will use good oppurtintys for him against you anytime again.

Sidenote: His Daughter Anora seems to be quite the same, opportunistic and strangelys SHE is mostly unpopular in the forums for the same reasons why Loghain, her father seems to be so popular here, despite the fact she's not as "successful" with her attemps as her father is

Well, perhaps I'm just to used to play the righteous, heroic character type and I wouldn't blame anyone who prefers thievish or villain style of playing, but just the type of how and what you play can't be all that's the secret behind point 1 & 2, can it? And last but not least:

3. Oghren

I just wonder why it's considered that he would be different compared Origins with Awakening?

In Origins he'd been an angry, drunken, shameless dwarven berserker who just had lost his wife.
In Awakening he's an angry, drunken, shameless dwarven berserker who lost his wife six month's ago...so

Where's the difference, I really can't see it

[Rexiselic]

1) I feel similarly about Arl Eamon, I've always liked him.

2) I think it's just that a lot of people have read Loghain's earlier stories and feel that it is difficult to let go of a character they have become attached to. I think those who find Loghain to be sympathetic view him as a hero who has either become a villian or simply as a hero who has made mistakes.

Also, plenty of people don't seem to like Calian or Alistair or whoever and just don't care about whatever Loghain did. Everyone is different in real life and will relate to characters differently.

Personally, it seems to me that while me -might- have been a hero in his youth, personal power was always more important. Not that he wants to hurt people necceraily, just that he is willing to do whatever it takes to increase his own power including doing things he considers to be morally wrong.

3) He isn't that much more exaggerated in awakening, but there is silly music that comes on frequently when he is being silly and music has a very big psychological effect on human beings and thus most will feel as if the Oghren experience became significantly more silly.

Just my opinions, don't hate me!

Modifié par Rexiselic, 06 avril 2011 - 02:55 .

[ejoslin]

1. Many feel that Eamon not only mistreated Alistair as a child (making him sleep in the stables, destroying all sense of self so he would never make a bid for the throne, packing him off to the Chantry because of his wife) but then feel he was just using Alistair to make a grab for power once he could.

2. I don't find Loghain so much sympathetic as I don't know that executing him without any preamble is a good thing to do. The duel was until someone yielded, and he did yield. Making him a gray warden is no prize -- and gray wardens were needed. Just killing him can be seen as a waste of a valuable resource.

3. Oghren goes through significant changes in DAO if you friend him. He moves on from Branka, falls in love with Felsi, has a child, becomes general of Ferelden's army... he turns himself around completely. Then in Awakening, it's like that all never happened. Doesn't matter if you killed him, if he hated you, if he was neutral towards you, or you were his BFF who completely changed his life -- he leaves his wife and baby (how long is dwarven gestation anyway), quits his job in the ferelden army, and is neutral to the warden again.

Edit: I think what is worst about Oghren is it seems to be assumed that the warden DID friend him.  After all, if the warden didn't, he becomes a drunk and a mercenary and Felsi is not in the picture.  

Modifié par ejoslin, 06 avril 2011 - 04:02 .

[Wulfram]

There are two main tribes on these boards. The Loghain fans, who don't like Eamon because he's Loghain's main political rival, and the Alistair fans, who don't like Eamon because he made a fairly crappy job of raising Alistair.

[frostajulie]

Justforvisit wrote...


1. Arl Eamon

I wonder why he is considered mostly so unpopular with most fans, in my opinion he's a righteous guy who only wants the best for Ferelden. I also often read that he is considered so unpopular for wanting to force Alistair on the Throne as King, but then again, the very same people also say they want to have Alistair on the throne theirself.

I don't hate him but I really dislike him.  He purposefully  set out to destroy a childs self worth so that when that child grew up he would never try to take the throne.  This is unforgivable in my opinion.  He then gave this child to the chantry to appease his new wife but not until said wife made life hell for the poor kid.  He then decided Alistair had a duty to be king after spending most of Alistairs child hood telling him what a disaster that would be and how there was no place for him on the throne.  I feel awful that Alistair has to be used as a pawn and according to Eamon has no right to live his own life. I also dislike him because I hate how the arrogant douche asks me what to do about Jowan and then completely disregards what I have to say, if it was never my decision to make don't waste my time.

Justforvisit wrote...
2. Teryn Loghain

Why do some people find him so sympathic? When you think about it, he's nothing more than a traitor, an opportunist and a liar.

Some people consuider Loghain to be the only true patriot who saved many Ferelden lives the day he took his army away from the fields of Ostegar.  Cailan was a battle hungry fool who overcommitted him people to a field of battle where the odds were unwinnable.  Loghain made the rational chopice of taking the army to live again to fight another day.  He's a total turd for many other reasons but many, myself included would argue that he was not a traitor or an opportunist. 

Justforvisit wrote...
3. Oghren

I just wonder why it's considered that he would be different compared Origins with Awakening?

In Origins he'd been an angry, drunken, shameless dwarven berserker who just had lost his wife.
In Awakening he's an angry, drunken, shameless dwarven berserker who lost his wife six month's ago...so

Actually depending on how you played the quests he may have lost his wife over a year ago and if you befriended him and grew a relationship with him and hooked him up witjh Felsi he grows and changes as a character but then when you play Awakenings its like nothing you did for him in Origins matterred and he never grew at all and that was just lazy writing and cheap game crafting.

[GSSAGE7]

1. My personal dislike of Eamon is from an admittedly irrational belief that NO ONE could really be that good, in addition to a slightly more justified belief that he's trying to use Alistair as a puppet to gain more power.

2. The main reason Loghain is more liked than Anora is because at least Loghain shows some humanity when he fails at least. If you execute him, he almost begs you to protect Fereldan in his stead, and his talks with Dog if you recruit him show that he wasn't always the guy he is. Hell, his brief cameo in Awakening already has him mellowed out quite a bit. Whereas Anora, even if she loses, is still a total ****.

3. I'd just be repeating what everyone else said. Personally though, I'd like to think that not all the epilogues have happened yet, which solves most continuity issues with them. "Why is Leliana alive in DA2 if she's implied to kill herself in the epilogue?" Because she hasn't reached that point yet. "Why is Oghren still a drunk?" Because he doesn't sober up until later.

[BigBad]

1. I tend to like Eamon. I mean, the man's reasonable and practical, which makes him a virtual paragon of humanity in terms of Ferelden nobility (after the Cousland massacre, anyway). Even if he wakes up to find you killed his wife in a blood magic ritual in his own home, he's able to look past that and focus on the bigger picture. People who get all bent out of shape about Alistair's upbringing tend to forget about this thing called Values Dissonance. Alistair had no blood tie to Eamon or Eamon's family, so special treatment of any kind beyond that given to the orphaned offspring of a favored but menial servant was right out. It would only have feuled the bastard rumors sooner and fiercer. Nobles get bent out of sorts when bastards are involved. Alistair's ties to Maric had to be hidden, not so much so that Alistair couldn't try to depose the legitimate heir, but so that no one could use Alistair's name to prop up their own insurrection and place him on the throne as a puppet king. Sleeping in the stables is what stableboys did, and Alistair could never be treated, for his own sake and the sake of Ferelden, as more than a servant and the son of a servant. But Eamon has his foibles. He's devoted to the Theirin bloodline, believing completely in their right to hold the throne of Ferelden. When presented with the option of supporting or deposing Loghain, he turns immediately to placing the last of the Theirin line on the throne, no matter how unsuitable for kinghood he actually is. It's less a personal powergrab than it is a political expediency. Alistair is the only other candidate in the country with a strong enough claim to the throne for the Landsmeet to even bother convening.

2. I like Loghain as a character. He makes a great villain. But I always remember that he is a villain. Even if you excuse every single action of his in the game (some of his supporters are fantatics) as being perfectly and totally justified, he is still an obsessed, deluded old man completely unable to move past a war he won thirty years ago and seeing enemies (but not the real enemies) behind every flowerpot. Sure, Loghain is relatable and understandable, and there are times when you will feel sympathy for him, but that's just the mark of a -great villain-.

3. Didn't like Oghren in Origins. Didn't like him in Awakening. Thought he was possibly the most annoying dwarf in either game, and I got saddled with him both times.

[Bleachrude]

I never liked Loghain...I think a lot of people also forget that Cailan actually HAD a separate battleplan but went with the plan of the s-called "hero of River run| and "the greatest general ever"

My problem is that I remember Cailan's original battle-plan....Wait for the Orlesian Grey Wardens and then we can smash ths darkspawn army"

Loghain screwed him over

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

1. Arl Eamon: I dislike him, and I am a fan of both Alistair and Loghain. Eamon basically neglected and emotionally broke Alistair as a boy, turning him into a neurotic mess with confidence issues. Later on, when Eamon pushes Alistair as a throne candidate, given some of the things he says and his complete lack of consideration or concern for Alistair's feelings and unwillingness to rule makes me believe that Eamon just wants a pliable puppet king on the throne that he can control.

2. Unless you have read the books or spared Loghain at least once, and played the game a couple times to get a realistic view of the game world, you will probably continue to think Loghain is an evil traitor with power ambitions. However, I have learned this is not the case, and Loghain is an incredibly complex character, rather than a simple villian.

3. Oghren undergoes character growth and change in Origins from being a drunken joke to becoming a propper warrior. His character in Awakenings is like nothing from Origins mattered, no personal growth, he just goes back to being a drunken deadbeat joke. Which sucked, because he ended up so much better at the end of Origins.

[danerman]

1. I like Alistair and a majority of the time my characters execute Loghain for his crimes and I also don't like Arl Emon. His demeanor is that of a firm but generous man that commands a lot of respect. But I don't like how he treated Alistair when he was a boy and I also don't like how he was advising Cailen to throw away Anora like she was a piece of garbage because she did not bear a child with him for five years. She was still under 30 years old. If he ever needed a concubine to bear a child at some point, Anora would almost certainly go along with it, even though I feel she can be ruthless at times, she is practical and it is an arranged marriage. She does not have to be thrown aside, Cailen needs her desperately to rule Ferelden, he's charming but a fool. (I do not believe Alistair actually needs her to rule with him but that's a different discussion.)

2. Loghain: I understand withdrawing from Ostagar to save the troops but he should not have promised to enter when the torch was lit in the first place. He should have told Cailen right up front that he would not go along with this. He did not do this because Cailen would send in the Orleasians if he did not make the promise but if you make the promise to the king, you have to follow through even though it is foolish. Backing out of his word to the king was a traitorous move. Also, his taking of the regency was a bad move, especially since it caused civil war and if he had any sense at all he would have known that it would. You don't just pull troops out of Ostagar, let the king die, and take over power for yourself without a fight by other nobles. The Civil War probably weakens Ferelden more than Cailen's blunder at Ostagar. Also trying to pin the blame on the Warden's in the middle of a blight was downright idiotic. I know he says that he does not think it's a true blight but even after 400 years of nothing it is well known that major move of darkspawn on the surface equals blight. He also does not know why the Wardens are needed to fight the darkspawn but still that is what they do and to try and outlaw the people dedicated to defeating darkspawn put Ferelden in serious jeopardy again worse than the blunder Cailen made at Ostagar. He also made some unforgivable decisions as regent the worst being selling the Elves in the Alienage into slavery. The latter decision is the one that makes all my Elven characters kill him at the landsmeet. My other characters will take into account his repentance at the Landsmeet and the need for his talents as a military leader for the Grey Wardens and may spare him(though they often do not).

3. Oghren is just annoying to me. He's suppose to be funny but to me he is not. That is true for me in DAO and DAA. I agree that any changes he may have made to his life in DAO are disregarded in DAA.

[Bleachrude]

My problem with sparing Loghain because of his so-callled military prowess is that if you so believe he's such an asset, then what was the point in fighting against him all the time before...

Why not simply go up and surrender to him right after Flemeth saved you if you thought he was "so good and so important"?

Keep in mind that you do NOT know that you need a Warden to kill the Archidemon..you find that out AFTER the landsmeet.

[danerman]

Bleachrude wrote...

My problem with sparing Loghain because of his so-callled military prowess is that if you so believe he's such an asset, then what was the point in fighting against him all the time before...

Why not simply go up and surrender to him right after Flemeth saved you if you thought he was "so good and so important"?

Keep in mind that you do NOT know that you need a Warden to kill the Archidemon..you find that out AFTER the landsmeet.

There are two reasons not to surrender to him earlier if you think he is a military asset.  The first and most obvious reason is game mechanics, the game won't let you do it.   The second reason is before you defeat him at the landsmeet he is activly trying to kill your party and would not listen to reason if you surrender.  He would probably have you arrested, possibly executed and he would go on his merry way with his mistakes.  He does not respect the Wardens untill after the duel.   I don't think any Warden would think the Ferelden would be better off without the Warden and his/her allies.

Modifié par danerman, 12 avril 2011 - 04:42 .

[Justforvisit]

Didn't know that about Oghren and that explains a lot of course, well, what a luck for me in this case I always have seen him as comic relief character and really liked his funny ways.

So I'd say in my case I'm lucky he didn't change over all for me and kept beeing comic relief in Awakening ^^

Still, I can very well understand that it annoys the people who had put all the effort in making him more grownup in Origins and loosing it all for nothing in Awakening.

Modifié par Justforvisit, 12 avril 2011 - 02:26 .

[Eternal Phoenix]

No one touches Oghren's junk and lives!!!

[errant_knight]

BigBad wrote...

1. I tend to like Eamon. I mean, the man's reasonable and practical, which makes him a virtual paragon of humanity in terms of Ferelden nobility (after the Cousland massacre, anyway). Even if he wakes up to find you killed his wife in a blood magic ritual in his own home, he's able to look past that and focus on the bigger picture. People who get all bent out of shape about Alistair's upbringing tend to forget about this thing called Values Dissonance. Alistair had no blood tie to Eamon or Eamon's family, so special treatment of any kind beyond that given to the orphaned offspring of a favored but menial servant was right out. It would only have feuled the bastard rumors sooner and fiercer. Nobles get bent out of sorts when bastards are involved. Alistair's ties to Maric had to be hidden, not so much so that Alistair couldn't try to depose the legitimate heir, but so that no one could use Alistair's name to prop up their own insurrection and place him on the throne as a puppet king. Sleeping in the stables is what stableboys did, and Alistair could never be treated, for his own sake and the sake of Ferelden, as more than a servant and the son of a servant. But Eamon has his foibles. He's devoted to the Theirin bloodline, believing completely in their right to hold the throne of Ferelden. When presented with the option of supporting or deposing Loghain, he turns immediately to placing the last of the Theirin line on the throne, no matter how unsuitable for kinghood he actually is. It's less a personal powergrab than it is a political expediency. Alistair is the only other candidate in the country with a strong enough claim to the throne for the Landsmeet to even bother convening.

2. I like Loghain as a character. He makes a great villain. But I always remember that he is a villain. Even if you excuse every single action of his in the game (some of his supporters are fantatics) as being perfectly and totally justified, he is still an obsessed, deluded old man completely unable to move past a war he won thirty years ago and seeing enemies (but not the real enemies) behind every flowerpot. Sure, Loghain is relatable and understandable, and there are times when you will feel sympathy for him, but that's just the mark of a -great villain-.

3. Didn't like Oghren in Origins. Didn't like him in Awakening. Thought he was possibly the most annoying dwarf in either game, and I got saddled with him both times.

I agree with one and two entirely. Alistair isn't even slightly bitter about anything to do with his childhood except being sent to the Chantry, and I'm not convinced that was entirely Eamon's choice. Maric was still alive, after all. If sleeping in the stables was even slightly unusual, Alistair would have a snarky comment about it, that being his way. Eamon could have just handed the baby to Goldanna and sent them on their way, in which case Alistair probably would have died. I doubt that Goldanna could have found a wetnurse for him. Even if she had, he would have been raised by a resentful harridan.

Loghain is truly an excellent villain. There are reasons for all his actions and one can feel sympathy for him. but that doesn't make his choices any better, or the results any less horrific. I feel the same about Anora, to a far lesser degree, not because of any specific acts, but because she's so clearly her father's daughter. I simply don't trust her not to believe that the ends justify the means, and that her goals are more important than people who get in her way.

I like Oghren in Origins. I tend to pretend that his appearence in Awakening didn't happen. He went from being crude and funny to being crude and unpleasant. Leaving Felsi and his child...yeah, who doesn't like a cad.... He may have had his reasons, but what absentee father doesn't? It doesn't change the result. Personally, I find it out of character for Origins Oghren, a man who made a laughing stock of himself because he refused to give up on his wife and extended family.

[Saberchic]

Arl Eamon: I did like him my first playthrough, but then I started thinking about it, and now he irritates me. I hate how he's so narrow minded about who should be king. Alistair doesn't even want the job (he will eventually if you harden him), but Anora is already on the throne and apparently was doing a good job. Why was Eamon so stuck on a Theirin having to rule? If not Anora, then how about the next family in line? There's a freakin Blight on his doorstep, and he's worried about politics!!! I'm sorry, but this was the wrong time to stir up a civil war.
And then there's the situation with Cailin and his butting in on the royal heir issue. He wants Cailin to set Anora aside??? Really??? For any warden who married Alistair and was put on the throne (like myself), you just know Eamon isn't going to leave well enough alone and will try the same crap with Alistair.
And don't get me started on his wife. He casts Alistair out because of Isolde's petty jealousy; that's just stupid, as it's apparent he knows who Aliatair is. Then, Isolde doesn't get punished for what she did in Redcliffe if she lives? Are you kidding me? Eamon loses all credibility with me on that alone. It makes me suspicious of all of his motives.

Loghain: I didn't like him the first time I played the game. Then I read The Calling. I have a completely different view of him now, and I think that book has helped Loghain acquire many fans. No, I still haven't saved him in any playthrough I've done, but I really really dislike that I can't save him and just exile him. Yes, what he did was completely reprehensible, but if you've read the book, then you understand that he wasn't completely losing it. If there was no Loghain, there'd be no Ferelden. Period.

Oghren: I liked him in Origins. They took his character and pushed him from funny drunk to disgusting, crude drunk. It's like they wanted to push the envelope with him. I didn't like the change.

[Bleachrude]

danerman wrote...

Bleachrude wrote...

My problem with sparing Loghain because of his so-callled military prowess is that if you so believe he's such an asset, then what was the point in fighting against him all the time before...

Why not simply go up and surrender to him right after Flemeth saved you if you thought he was "so good and so important"?

Keep in mind that you do NOT know that you need a Warden to kill the Archidemon..you find that out AFTER the landsmeet.

There are two reasons not to surrender to him earlier if you think he is a military asset.  The first and most obvious reason is game mechanics, the game won't let you do it.   The second reason is before you defeat him at the landsmeet he is activly trying to kill your party and would not listen to reason if you surrender.  He would probably have you arrested, possibly executed and he would go on his merry way with his mistakes.  He does not respect the Wardens untill after the duel.   I don't think any Warden would think the Ferelden would be better off without the Warden and his/her allies.

Yeah the first one is just game mechanics but the second?

So what if he is actively trying to kill you? You're a Grey Warden who supposedly is willing to do anything to stop the Blight and if you believe Loghain is  such a HUGE and essential asset, then you should NOT be opposed to sacrificing yourself so that Loghain can unite the country behind him....

Personally, the Calling didn't make me sympathetic to Loghain...to me it reinforced the notion that Loghain should've been actively pushed out of the command structure after the Orlesians were kicked out since his whole world view is shaped by those Orlesian bastards  as Loghain would say...

[Apellius]

I didn’t know that so many disliked Eamon that much Most people seem to be upset about the way he treated Alistair as a kid. As some have said before – the fact that Alistair was the bastard child of Maric had to be kept completly secret. The rumours were already there and if AListait would have been given any special treatment the rumours would just become stronger. I believe that Eamon gave Alistair the best possible childhood a bastard son of a king could ever have. He took him in, sheltered him and raised him when he could just as easily decided not to. The fact that he repaired and kept Alistair’s mother’s amulett for so long suggests that he probably loved Alistair as a son, just he wasn’t allowed to show it then. I think that Eamon was a good and friendly man.