58 réponses à ce sujet

[Dean_the_Young]

Something I've been wondering, specifically if there's a lore base (revealed yet or otherwise) giving a good reason as to why.

The point of the Right of Annulment, after all, is that a Circle has been deemed too dangerous and irredeemable. The Mages, whether openly or by corruption, are too dangerous.

But the point of Tranquility is that it 'spares' the Mages, and makes them harmless. Risk of blood magic/demonic summoning/etc. nullified. Moreover, while the Tranquil are not without without minds, they practical to the point of going along with the practical... which, one might suppose, means cooperating with Templar interrogators about any conspiracies they may have known about/been a part of, and cooperating afterwards. So the risk of continued subversion is minimal.

So why isn't the Right of Annulmment a case of mass Tranquility? Mages who resist violently be killed if they can't be forced, but those who would accept it (or could have it forced on them) survive, in a manner of speaking.


A fate worse than death? Plenty arguable. But going straight for the kill seems a bit unnecessary, considering the presence of mages who would accept tranquility but are instead forced to fight to their death, while the mages who would fight tranquility are also largely the ones who would fight to the death as well.


I'm not just asking because I wanted the poetic justice of making Anders Tranquil: I'm asking because I'd like to know if there's an in-universe reason.

[LobselVith8]

I don't believe an in-universe reason is given by the characters or the codex entries, but I'd have to assume it's the issue of how problematic it would be to force all the inhabitants of the Circle to be made to undergo the Rite of Tranquility. Also, I don't think Anders can be made tranquil simply for the fact that he's an abomination. His nature was able to temporarily release Karl from his state as a tranquil, after all.

[AshenEndymion]

It's likely that that occurs for mages who surrender (when the Templars accept surrender).

[Reconfire89]

Tranquility has a ritual behind it that those who have undergone, and the Templars do not wish to share.

I guess you should just imagine that it's not something that could easily be done on a mass scale; the Mages could also already be performing blood magic, or be abominations.

I guess the Templars just don't want to take any chances.

[Asdara]

My guess is that any mages who "submit" might be made tranquil under normal circumstances (read: not crazy foaming at the mouth woman in charge of the Templars) while those who resist would be summarily executed to completely nullify the mage population of a Circle when needed.

Death is faster and more absolute (remember Karl coming out of Tranquility? Even if only for a moment, it's apparently possible) and when you're dealing with abominations running wild and mages backed into a corner where a deal with a demon starts looking like simple survival you want an immediate solution.

Given that we didn't see what happened at the Ferelden Circle post-crisis if we chose to Annul... I can't really say for certain, but that's my general guess. I bet those mages we "spare" who surrender end up on the "make tranquil" list.

[The Angry One]

You can't make an abomination tranquil, they're directly connected to a Fade being.
In fact, abominations can force possessions on tranquils (happens in DA:O).

Modifié par The Angry One, 06 avril 2011 - 03:31 .

[Herr Uhl]

The Angry One wrote...

In fact, abominations can force possessions on tranquils (happens in DA:O).

When?

[Cutlass Jack]

Well I was under the impression that the only reason Tranquility was supposed to happen was if you refused to undergo a Harrowing. Its supposed to be a voluntary thing, not a punishment. The punishment for Blood Magery was death. Its generally considered too late once they willingly go down that road.

Ser Alrik and Meridith were a little more liberal in the whole Tranquility thing.

[Dr. Nexas]

Well we don't really know what the Rite of Tranquility involves. It could an incredibly long ritual that requires a lot of preparation. Its probably easier to just cut off their heads than keep them subdued until they can make the mages tranquil.

[JesterPsychotica]

I am assuming that there is some kind of cost incurred with the Rite of Tranquility. Anders comments that they had made 12 mages Tranquil in one year, like that was overkill. It seems like it is something that either takes time, resources or both. Otherwise I think we'd see a LOT more Tranquil running around than there are.

[The Angry One]

Herr Uhl wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

In fact, abominations can force possessions on tranquils (happens in DA:O).

When?

Circle tower, 2nd floor, 4 tranquils are trapped and become possessed during the fight.
If you kill everything quick enough a few might survive.

[Plaintiff]

The Rite of Tranquility involves "severing their connection to the Fade". No idea how that's done, but I can't imagine it would be easier than simply lopping their head off. It's likely a complicated magical procedure that can only be performed with the help of a mage in the first place. It may even involve going into the Fade, which means the mage in question would have to be there too for it to work, which means forcing the mage into the Fade against their will. If the mage won't acquiesce, how do you restrain them? They can do magic even when pinned down.

[Dasha Dreyson]

I think you have to have mages to help with the Rite of Tranquility. Annulment is for the worst case scenario when there is no cooperation.

[Dean_the_Young]

If you're already going for a total massacre of people who can turn into abominations, 'easy' and 'cheap' isn't the watchword in the first place.

Mages from outside the annuled circle could always be brought in, while of course any too-resistive Mage could be killed instead.


To someone above:

While yes, in the canon Tranquility is reserved as a alternative and not a punishment, why is that is a valid question. It's not like the Right of Annulment isn't already extreme and exceptional as it is, or any common punishment.

[Avissel]

It's because at the point you call for the right, the circle is too far gone. Since an abomination can pass for a normal mage if they try, it's too much of a risk not to just kill them all.

[Iosev]

The Angry One wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

In fact, abominations can force possessions on tranquils (happens in DA:O).

When?

Circle tower, 2nd floor, 4 tranquils are trapped and become possessed during the fight.
If you kill everything quick enough a few might survive.

That part of the game never really made sense to me, since one of the reasons people are made Tranquil is to prevent them from becoming possessed.  I mean, I guess it could be explained that the demon was able to corrupt the Tranquil because they were now in this world (and not in the Fade, where the Tranquil are cut off), but it could also be a slight oversight on Bioware's part in an effort to make a more interesting encounter. 

[The Angry One]

The idea of the Right of Annulment is that you've lost complete control of the Circle which means it's full of hostile mages, abomination or otherwise.
There's just no room to be methodical and use something complicated and time consuming like tranquility. It's the medieval fantasy equivalent of NUKE IT FROM ORBIT.

arcelonious wrote...

That part of the game never really
made sense to me, since one of the reasons people are made Tranquil is
to prevent them from becoming possessed.  I mean, I guess it could be
explained that the demon was able to corrupt the Tranquil because they
were now in this world (and not in the Fade, where the Tranquil are cut
off), but it could also be a slight oversight on Bioware's part in an
effort to make a more interesting encounter. 

It makes sense given how in DA2 the mere proximity of Justice can temporarily restore Karl's connection to the Fade.
The idea of tranquility is that a mage can no longer attract demons. Which they don't. It's like how a regular person doesn't attract demons but can still be possessed by a blood mage (as with those templars).

Modifié par The Angry One, 06 avril 2011 - 03:52 .

[Dean_the_Young]

In what sense is it a great risk? If the abomination/mage resists, you were going to fight them anyway. If the Tranquility ritual works, you kill them anyway. If they fake the tranquility, you interrogate the newly tranquil and figure out the conspiracies.

[Maria Caliban]

The Angry One wrote...

Circle tower, 2nd floor, 4 tranquils are trapped and become possessed during the fight.
If you kill everything quick enough a few might survive.

I believe that's another point where gameplay and story diverge. Much like in DA 2, how abominations don't need a host at all but sometimes are simply summoned.

[The Angry One]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

In what sense is it a great risk? If the abomination/mage resists, you were going to fight them anyway. If the Tranquility ritual works, you kill them anyway. If they fake the tranquility, you interrogate the newly tranquil and figure out the conspiracies.

Because there are multiple abominations and mages resisting you at the same time.
You might as well ask why opposing armies don't run around capturing the other side instead of shooting them.

Maria Caliban wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Circle tower, 2nd floor, 4 tranquils are trapped and become possessed during the fight.
If you kill everything quick enough a few might survive.

I believe that's another point where gameplay and story diverge. Much like in DA 2, how abominations don't need a host at all but sometimes are simply summoned.

I used to think that, but now it's consistent with what happens in DA2 storywise.
Plus it was a one-time event rather than the constant gameplay stuff of DA2.

Modifié par The Angry One, 06 avril 2011 - 03:54 .

[Iosev]

In addition, I think it is supposedly against Chantry law to force Tranquility on any magi who have passed their Harrowing, whereas the Rite of Annulment has no such clause (it essentially purges an entire Circle).

[Plaintiff]

JesterPsychotica wrote...

I am assuming that there is some kind of cost incurred with the Rite of Tranquility. Anders comments that they had made 12 mages Tranquil in one year, like that was overkill. It seems like it is something that either takes time, resources or both. Otherwise I think we'd see a LOT more Tranquil running around than there are.

I imagine Anders' horror had less to do with the consumption of resources and more to do with the fact that he thinks nobody should be made Tranquil, and that the mages had already passed their Harrowing, meaning it is illegal to make them Tranquil.

Tranquil are rare because a mage has to either fail their Harrowing, or volunteer for the process. Very few people want to be Tranquil, which suggests that Meredith has been ordering the Rite of Tranquility be used on mages who didn't want it and didn't need it.

[Camenae]

Hmm, I think as horrible as tranquility sounds, if the choices were only between tranquility or death, it isn't a big leap to expect that some people might pick tranquility.

[Dean_the_Young]

The Angry One wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

In what sense is it a great risk? If the abomination/mage resists, you were going to fight them anyway. If the Tranquility ritual works, you kill them anyway. If they fake the tranquility, you interrogate the newly tranquil and figure out the conspiracies.

Because there are multiple abominations and mages resisting you at the same time.
You might as well ask why opposing armies don't run around capturing the other side instead of shooting them.

Since managing population/refugee flows in a battlefield is something that armies can and do perform...


You can set it up however you want. 'All of you, stay where you are. One at a time, come here. If you fight or rush at us, you're dead.'

The people who are willing to be made Tranquil aren't going to be fighting your, and you can simply handle them before or after the clash of the hold-outs.

[David Gaider]

The issue is this:

By the time the Right of Annulment is invoked, the tower in question has moved beyond the possibility of mages being brought under control enough that Tranquility would even be possible. It's possible some mages might survive the initial assault, but the order cannot be "take any prisoners you can" simply because by that point a mage might have been corrupted and become a blood mage... something which cannot be detected under normal circumstances. Thus capturing them becomes a means for them to escape the quarantine.

So therefore the order is "kill everyone". At the end of the day, if any mages are still alive for whatever reason... then, yes, I imagine they could theroretically be made Tranquil as opposed to executed outright.

Modifié par David Gaider, 06 avril 2011 - 04:08 .