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[Asdara]

Plaintiff wrote...

JesterPsychotica wrote...

I am assuming that there is some kind of cost incurred with the Rite of Tranquility. Anders comments that they had made 12 mages Tranquil in one year, like that was overkill. It seems like it is something that either takes time, resources or both. Otherwise I think we'd see a LOT more Tranquil running around than there are.

I imagine Anders' horror had less to do with the consumption of resources and more to do with the fact that he thinks nobody should be made Tranquil, and that the mages had already passed their Harrowing, meaning it is illegal to make them Tranquil.

Tranquil are rare because a mage has to either fail their Harrowing, or volunteer for the process. Very few people want to be Tranquil, which suggests that Meredith has been ordering the Rite of Tranquility be used on mages who didn't want it and didn't need it.

Actually, if a mage fails their Harrowing they are killed.  That's made pretty clear in DAO mage origin story.  

So it's people who cant face the Harrowing, either because they decide they don't want to try or because the First Enchanter / Senior Enchanters believe that mage won't succeed (like Jowan, who was going to be made tranquil instead of trying the Harrowing).

[KnightofPhoenix]

I might be wrong, but I've always thought that tranquilization required a procedure that I doubt would be quick enough to be able to do it on all mages in case of revolt or abominations. Much harder with the latter, assuming they can be tranqulizied, let alone paralysized long enough to be able to do the procedure. And since apparently there is no way of knowing who is an abomination or not, killing them outright is safer and less time consumming.

That said, in Origins, Irving can put the entire Circle under voluntary arrest and they will be subject to investigation. I doubt the Templars would kill them all, so they might tranquilize them (or let them go, but I somehow doubt that). If the codex is any indication, that still counts as a Rite of Annulment. So it doesn't necessarily have to be massacre I think.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 06 avril 2011 - 04:04 .

[The Angry One]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Since managing population/refugee flows in a battlefield is something that armies can and do perform...

Unless said refugees are shooting at you.

You can set it up however you want. 'All of you, stay where you are. One at a time, come here. If you fight or rush at us, you're dead.'

The people who are willing to be made Tranquil aren't going to be fighting your, and you can simply handle them before or after the clash of the hold-outs.

Anyone invoking the Right of Annulment assumes that the point of negociating has already passed.
How do you know that the 10 mages you've captured while you're fighting the rest won't turn into abominations and slaughter you from behind? Once the situation is under control, then you can think of finding any survivors and making them tranquil.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Well, if Feynriel is anything to go by, to be made tranquil requires someone to enter the fade and kill you in there. Bu then again, the tranquil at Ostagar just say their forehead is branded with lyrium.

[Asdara]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Well, if Feynriel is anything to go by, to be made tranquil requires someone to enter the fade and kill you in there. Bu then again, the tranquil at Ostagar just say their forehead is branded with lyrium.

I think that's more of an illustration that there's more than one way to sever a connection to the Fade - interestingly enough, killing a companion that turns on you in the Fade does not make them Tranquil.  Somewhat inconsistent really.

[The Angry One]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Well, if Feynriel is anything to go by, to be made tranquil requires someone to enter the fade and kill you in there. Bu then again, the tranquil at Ostagar just say their forehead is branded with lyrium.

Oddly, if you tranquil Feynriel he appears at the Gallows in act 3 with the same forehead brand as the other tranquils.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Asdara wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Well, if Feynriel is anything to go by, to be made tranquil requires someone to enter the fade and kill you in there. Bu then again, the tranquil at Ostagar just say their forehead is branded with lyrium.

I think that's more of an illustration that there's more than one way to sever a connection to the Fade - interestingly enough, killing a companion that turns on you in the Fade does not make them Tranquil.  Somewhat inconsistent really.

Could be because they are not the target of the spell. The demon of sloth (forgot its name) does say it is a forgotten magic. Perhaps this is the ritual the ancient elves used to tranquilize.

[Apollo Starflare]

You really do feel sorry for those Mages who aren't involved in the initial Blood Magic that caused the Rite to be enforced. If there is no Rite they have every chance of being corrupted by their fellows or killed in the fighting, if there IS a rite then they have if anything an even greater chance of corruption due to their desperation when fleeing the Templars. Regardless they are deader than tank tops.

The rite is a controversial option, but at the end of the day it's those Mages that first send the Circle into meltdown that are responsible for all the deaths that come from it. Heh, although looking at how effective the Warden was in Origins maybe the Templars should outsource Mage rebellion/Circle crisis fighting to the Warden's when there isn't a Blight on.

I can't remember if there is a detailed explanation on the rite of Tranquility, but as others have said I always got the impression it was too delicate and time consuming a process to be a viable defence against a Circle gone crazy. With that said, depending on the scale of the force opposing the Templars I would imagine having a sweeper team of Tranquilators cleaning up those Mages only wounded or otherwise incapacitated after the initial force moves through would be effective.

However it all comes down to whether being made tranquil is any better for the Mage than death anyway? Many you meet seem to consider it a worse alternative. What really needs to be found to make the process less of a massacre is a way for the Templar force to quickly and decisively tell whether a Mage is corrupted, so they can have complete confidence that they are not letting a Blood mage behind the front lines.

[Dean_the_Young]

The Angry One wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Since managing population/refugee flows in a battlefield is something that armies can and do perform...

Unless said refugees are shooting at you.

And you don't automatically kill all civilians because some people dressed as civilians shoot at you.

I'm not demanding the Templars abide by 21st century rules of warfare, but there's more than a little room for preparation.

Anyone invoking the Right of Annulment assumes that the point of negociating has already passed.
How do you know that the 10 mages you've captured while you're fighting the rest won't turn into abominations and slaughter you from behind? Once the situation is under control, then you can think of finding any survivors and making them tranquil.

You don't need to negotiate, nor do you need to keep the Mages prisoner behind your lines at all. The situation in Kirkwall is case enough: the mages are stuck in a place, with their back against the Walls, and the Templars have to move forward regardless.

When they do, however, is up to the Templars. And what they do before then, again, is up to the Templars.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Since managing population/refugee flows in a battlefield is something that armies can and do perform...

Unless said refugees are shooting at you.

And you don't automatically kill all civilians because some people dressed as civilians shoot at you.

But when you know that there is a nefarious evil mind controlling presence that can possess any of those civilians, and in doing so empower them to the point where they can pose a great danger, then I can see killing them all as a safer solution.

I doubt abominations can be tranqulized without getting rid of the demon within, which itself is a long and risky procedure.

[The Angry One]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Since managing population/refugee flows in a battlefield is something that armies can and do perform...

Unless said refugees are shooting at you.

And you don't automatically kill all civilians because some people dressed as civilians shoot at you.

I'm not demanding the Templars abide by 21st century rules of warfare, but there's more than a little room for preparation.

Anyone invoking the Right of Annulment assumes that the point of negociating has already passed.
How do you know that the 10 mages you've captured while you're fighting the rest won't turn into abominations and slaughter you from behind? Once the situation is under control, then you can think of finding any survivors and making them tranquil.

You don't need to negotiate, nor do you need to keep the Mages prisoner behind your lines at all. The situation in Kirkwall is case enough: the mages are stuck in a place, with their back against the Walls, and the Templars have to move forward regardless.

When they do, however, is up to the Templars. And what they do before then, again, is up to the Templars.

And again, when a Right of Annulment is invoked the Circle is considered a total loss. The Templars have determined that a complete culling is the only way to stop the massive demon invasion/blood mage control/whatever.

[Dean_the_Young]

David Gaider wrote...

The issue is this:

By the time the Right of Annulment is invoked, the tower in question has moved beyond the possibility of mages being brought under control enough that Tranquility would even be possible. It's possible some mages might survive the initial assault, but the order cannot be "take any prisoners you can" simply because by that point a mage might have been corrupted and become a blood mage... something which cannot be detected under normal circumstances. Thus capturing them becomes a means for them to escape the quarantine.

So therefore the order is "kill everyone". At the end of the day, if any mages are still alive for whatever reason... then, yes, I imagine they could theroretically be made Tranquil as opposed to executed outright.

So, for clarification, it would also depend on who the Knight Commander was, and the circumstance of the ground? Or rather, is the means of Annuling the circle up to the Knight Commander?


To clarify what I'm thinking, I'm looking forward at DA3, and using the Kirkwall and Ferelden assaults as a context. Templars surround, have established quarantine, and choose the moment to attack. In DA3, it's the rogue Templars who are 'restoring order', and at their own discretion.

But while 'charge in and kill' is one strategy, could another Knight Commander more or less lay seige/keep the Quarantine, and allow Tranquility for those who would come forth individually and surrender, be made Tranquil there, and be moved to the rear?

Consider an anti-Meridith who, instead of telling Orisino-analog to go back and prepare for the inevitable, instead tells Orisino that those willing to be made Tranquil can come forth at a rate of X-per-half-hour, for as long as there are those still willing to be made Tranquil, and that after any period of no new arrivals (or any rush past that number) the rest would be considered committed to fighting to the death.


Some Templars would undoubtably be against this, but the hypothetical anti-Meridith could have his/her own reason for doing this, ranging from compassion (wanting to lessen the bloodshed, seeing Tranquility as a viable alternative) to hard-nose tactical/political advantage (reducing the mages numbers even before the fight, allowing divisions between hardliners and those who would submit, a poitically more 'generous' approach to face the world).

Ultimately, the Tower is Annuled regardless. There are no more mages, or abominations, at the end. But you could potentially have an entire Circle destroyed without one person dying... an accomplishment that would be both amazing and terrifying to mages and Templars alike.

Naturally, towers of Abominations are less applicable for this strategy, but then circumstance dictates opportunity.

[Dean_the_Young]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

But when you know that there is a nefarious evil mind controlling presence that can possess any of those civilians, and in doing so empower them to the point where they can pose a great danger, then I can see killing them all as a safer solution.

It's all about who's making the basis and the individual leader, as I mentioned above. I'm not talking about storming and taking prisoners, but more of a pre-battle alternative.

I doubt abominations can be tranqulized without getting rid of the demon within, which itself is a long and risky procedure.

David, since you were reading this thread, would you mind clarifying about this? I don't think we have any record about what would happen if the Rite of Tranquility were applied to an Abomination: are they immune? Does it destroy the Abomination's being by cutting of the demon, which is an inegrated part of the being? Does the Abomination's mind stay intact, but it itself is cut off from the fade and de-fanged?

[KnightofPhoenix]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
But while 'charge in and kill' is one strategy, could another Knight Commander more or less lay seige/keep the Quarantine, and allow Tranquility for those who would come forth individually and surrender, be made Tranquil there, and be moved to the rear?

Ultimately, the Tower is Annuled regardless. There are no more mages, or abominations, at the end. But you could potentially have an entire Circle destroyed without one person dying... an accomplishment that would be both amazing and terrifying to mages and Templars alike.

Like I said in my first post, I think Gregoir did this, if Irving and the Circle surrenders. According to the codexes (and achievment) that still counts as annulment.

Now it depends on what will happen to those prisoners and what the "investigation" entails. But I doubt they'd kill them all.

[Avissel]

iOnlySignIn wrote...
Meredtith says just that in the game if you ask her. I think it is very strange - wouldn't the knife marks on one's wrists be visible? Or why can't another Magic user (say, a Circle Mage working with the Templars) detect the use of Blood Magic, like how Merrill conducted tests to show that the Templar prisoner in "Enemies Among Us" is clean?

magic can heal the cuts. Merrill was testing for the presence of a demon, not blood magic. Using blood magic is not automatic Abomination infestation. (Abominfication?)

[Dean_the_Young]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

a mage might have been corrupted and become a blood mage... something which cannot be detected under normal circumstances.

Meredtith says just that in the game if you ask her. I think it is very strange - wouldn't the knife marks on one's wrists be visible? Or why can't another Magic user (say, a Circle Mage working with the Templars) detect the use of Blood Magic, like how Merrill conducted tests to show that the Templar prisoner in "Enemies Among Us" is clean?

Knife slits definitely should be something to be looked for. You can't know if someone is doing blood magic with another, but you can check their own bodies to see if blood magic has been done on them.

Likewise, if you were really good you could look for callouses from extensive, specific knife work.


In Afghanistan/Iraq, there are physical 'tells' soldiers are taught to look for that help identify suicide bombers even without seeing the bombs.

[Dean_the_Young]

Avissel wrote...

iOnlySignIn wrote...
Meredtith says just that in the game if you ask her. I think it is very strange - wouldn't the knife marks on one's wrists be visible? Or why can't another Magic user (say, a Circle Mage working with the Templars) detect the use of Blood Magic, like how Merrill conducted tests to show that the Templar prisoner in "Enemies Among Us" is clean?

magic can heal the cuts. Merrill was testing for the presence of a demon, not blood magic. Using blood magic is not automatic Abomination infestation. (Abominfication?)

Magic may or may not leave scars, however. I don't think it's been settled.

[AshenEndymion]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

a mage might have been corrupted and become a blood mage... something which cannot be detected under normal circumstances.

Meredtith says just that in the game if you ask her. I think it is very strange - wouldn't the knife marks on one's wrists be visible? Or why can't another Magic user (say, a Circle Mage working with the Templars) detect the use of Blood Magic, like how Merrill conducted tests to show that the Templar prisoner in "Enemies Among Us" is clean?

The fact that the only way to get blood out of a person is to cut said person's wrists explains an awful lot about why it takes so long for warriors and rogues to kill people....

Edit: It should be noted, though, that a blood mage doesn't need to use their own blood to work blood magic....

Modifié par AshenEndemion, 06 avril 2011 - 04:38 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

Merrill uses Blood Magic to "scan" for the demon probably. And the mages aren't killed without trial for being abominations. They are sometimes for being blood mages, but tehre is never really any doubt wether or not they are abominations.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 06 avril 2011 - 04:45 .

[Avissel]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

Well, if a Mage is known to be not possessed by a demon, then how come the laws allow killing them without trial? And don't Templars like Meredith believe that Blood Magic = Demonic Possession, so that such a test would have satisfied them anyway?

Because they are blood mages, and Blood magic is illegal.

But Keran was a Templar, he can't perform magic, so you cant BE a blood mage. But he still could have been posseded by a demon that was set upon him BY a blood mage.

[sphinxess]

So the ones you can "rescue" along the way if you take the Templar side are likely going to be made Tranquel.. Some rescue...

[Dean_the_Young]

sphinxess wrote...

So the ones you can "rescue" along the way if you take the Templar side are likely going to be made Tranquel.. Some rescue...

You can always ask Tranquil which they would prefer.

Or are Tranquil views non-valid?