38 réponses à ce sujet

[KragCulloden]

Preface - I've got many issues with DA2, but want to limit *this* to just a question of the lyrium idol and its impact on act III.

Kirkwall, from act I forward, is explained as a place "hard" on mages with an overly enthusiastic knight commander.  Its no Ferelden circle per act I dialogue and throw away lines.

Fine.

We then meet "Anders" (no character relation to Awakenings Anders, but whatever...) who apparently came to the worst place on Thedas for mages (even circle mages, let alone apostates) so he could...hide out.  Again, whatever....

So we get that were supposed to pick up on the undercurrent of strife between mages and templar, and writ large mages vs chantry.  Clumsily thrown in and introduced, but its there and offers lots of possibility.  It works.

Why, then, did someone, anyone, whoever, decide to throw the lyrium idol from act II into the mix?  First, its makes little sense - how does the knight commander manage to pick up a trinket from a deep roads expedition?  Is it just sitting in a pawn shop in Kirkwall, and Meredith is a closet antique fanatic?  What's the connection there from Bartrand to Meredith...did I miss it?

Forget that though, we'll give it that it "just happens" and move on.  FIne.  However, what started as an interesting drama involving deeply held socio-religious institutions gets turned into a silly comic-bookish possession story involving a piece of junk from the deep roads.  And yet this still manages to get the attention of the grand poobah of the Chantry and talk of an exalted march?

Its just such a stupid, yes stupid, way to destroy what could have been a rather complex and meaningful, not too mention huge, story arc that could be sustained across several titles.  Now its just reduced to a trite possession story that is only meaningful because of the one possessed.  The gravity of the conflict between mageborne and society's attempt to deal with them is throw out and replaced with "ooh thats a scary idol that drives people crazy".  Why?

Even more ridiculous is the Anders story line that we're supposed to believe is a triggering event, but because of the idol we actually know it is was entirely irrelevent - Meredith was already whacked out and insane because of the idol and would have turned on everyone and her kitten regardless of the Chantry blowing up - the stupidity of the idol story destroys any real motivations that would have driven Meredith and that could have painted her as a tragic figure.  We are instead left with a loony possessed chick who just happened to have enough power to make her possession turn into a big deal for everyone, as opposed to Bartrand's possession that inconvenienced some cutouts and possibly the local homeowners' assocation.

So the topic question stands - why use the idol?  It was unnecessary in act II, and its inclusion in act III served only to destroy whatever weight the conflict could have amassed and turned the central characters of the act into stereotypes instead of the interesting and conflicted personalities they started out as (sans idol).  It stands as one of the largest self-inflicted wounds in a the very wound-ridden corpse that is Dragon Age II.

[Camenae]

It's mine. My own. My...preeeeeeciousssss.

[The Angry One]

The idol was a silly macguffin used to force the plot along, and force an EPIC BOSS FIGHT the only way they could with a rushed development time. Make Meredith CRAZY.

That said, the idol-sword has an inherent cool factor despite the awful cliches, hence I say with regards to the idol..

[Zippy72]

Red Kryptonite did it.

[Maria Caliban]

I agree. Not with the idea that the idol had no use; it gave us a boss fight and might tie into future developments in the series. The way it was used undermined the story though instead of supporting it.

And the connection between Bartrand and Meredith is that she bought the idol from him.

[hoorayforicecream]

The idol is essentially a Diabolus Ex Vacuus, a devil from nothing. Warning: This is a TV Tropes link. Clicking a TV Tropes link may cause severe amounts of lost time.

[Wulfram]

It makes the finale more to do with Hawke's actions rather than being totally out of his control, and creates a connection with the first act.
It also removes a bit of culpability from Meredith, which Bioware probably sees as a good thing since they went to a lot of effort to try to make the Templar's possible for people to support. And it justifies the various over the top things in the final battle.

[The Angry One]

Wulfram wrote...

It makes the finale more to do with Hawke's actions rather than being totally out of his control, and creates a connection with the first act.
It also removes a bit of culpability from Meredith, which Bioware probably sees as a good thing since they went to a lot of effort to try to make the Templar's possible for people to support. And it justifies the various over the top things in the final battle.

If that was the intention then it backfires, because the rest of the Templars still follow her while she's being completely and utterly crazymad, only turning against her when she goes into full sith lord mode.

[Zaldrak84]

KragCulloden wrote...
Why, then, did someone, anyone, whoever, decide to throw the lyrium idol from act II into the mix?  First, its makes little sense - how does the knight commander manage to pick up a trinket from a deep roads expedition?  Is it just sitting in a pawn shop in Kirkwall, and Meredith is a closet antique fanatic?  What's the connection there from Bartrand to Meredith...did I miss it?

She bought it because it's made of lyrium (AKA templar crack), we saw people smuggling lyrium to the templars all the time in both DAO and DA2.

Modifié par Zaldrak84, 06 avril 2011 - 05:44 .

[Sordel]

Yes, it's a hole in the plot. Act III is actually very thin: there are too few quests to really understand Orsino or Meredith, and at the end it seems that Bioware were provided to use a silly device to explain that Meredith was maaaad instead of showing how she had got to the idea that all mages must be tranquillised (which, on the evidence, is a highly rational belief).

[Avissel]

Sordel wrote...

Yes, it's a hole in the plot. Act III is actually very thin: there are too few quests to really understand Orsino or Meredith, and at the end it seems that Bioware were provided to use a silly device to explain that Meredith was maaaad instead of showing how she had got to the idea that all mages must be tranquillised (which, on the evidence, is a highly rational belief).

It's not a plot hole. It's a plot device.

Meredith was already a hard ass and suspicious of the mages, the Idol just amplified her paranoia.

[Maria Caliban]

Avissel wrote...

Meredith was already a hard ass and suspicious of the mages, the Idol just amplified her paranoia.

If the idol simply amplified another's flaws, that would be fine. However, we know from first-hand experience, it can turn a greedy bastard into a psychotic, murderous monster. By the end of the game, there's no reason to believe that any of Meredith's actions or opinions are her own.

[Avissel]

It was the lack of the idol that drove him mad. It seemed to have a different effect on Dwarfs, both Varric and Bartrand where the only ones I can recall that mentioned hearing "The singing"

[Dr. Nexas]

Alistairlover94 wrote...

What I don't get is why she bought the idol from Bartrand in the first place, why she had it made into the Soul Edge, and why she had eye lazors???

It was lyrium and she's a Templar.

[sth128]

It's made from red matter. In liquid state it can react with normal matter to form a quantum singularity; in solid state it can produce hallucinations in organic subjects; in gaseous state it can animate statues and dissolve human tissues. When introduced to an electric field the red matter will indoctrinate organic life forms.

[Taura-Tierno]

But the problem with the mages started in Act 1, according to Varric. That's when things started getting worse, and that was before the idol was discovered. So, Meredith was already on the same track before she was influenced. The idol just pushed her further along.

I was a bit disappointed in that, though. It would have been nice if Meredith had simply been a really, really zealous and fanatically crazy villain in a human fashion, without supernatural causes.

The Angry One wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

It makes the finale more to do with Hawke's actions rather than being totally out of his control, and creates a connection with the first act.
It also removes a bit of culpability from Meredith, which Bioware probably sees as a good thing since they went to a lot of effort to try to make the Templar's possible for people to support. And it justifies the various over the top things in the final battle.

If that was the intention then it backfires, because the rest of the Templars still follow her while she's being completely and utterly crazymad, only turning against her when she goes into full sith lord mode.

But some templars did oppose her before she went totally crazy. Thrask, and the other rebels, for instance. And there was all that whispering that maybe she was paranoid. I think that the templars are just generally so used to following orders, so that when she ordered the Annulment, those who didn't oppose her followed out of habit - and perhaps for vengeance, seeing as how they'd all just seen the Chantry blown up by magic, and they wouldn't all know that it was an apostate, not a Circle mage.

[Avissel]

Not to mention that this is Cullen we are talking about, as being the finale voice of rebellion. He was not exactly mage friendly.

[Avissel]

Alistairlover94 wrote...

But why have it forged into the Soul Edge and why did it sound like a lightsaber.

Still doesn't explain why she had glowing Eyes of Doom.GOODAMN DLC/SEQUEL HOOK ENDING!!!
*shakes fist*

Since she is trained to fight with a sword, she had ti forged into a sword. She use'd it like a light saber because a light saber is also a sword....so...yeah she used it like a sword because it was a sword. She had it turned into a sword because she was trained to fight with a sword.

The glowing eye thing was kinda used by lots of people to show they were containing large amounts of power. Like glowly eyed Anders.

Modifié par Avissel, 06 avril 2011 - 07:12 .

[The Angry One]

It IS Soul Edge. Morrigan travelled to Earth through the mirror and stole Soul Edge from Darth Vader. This is why it sounds like a lightsaber.

[Avissel]

The Angry One wrote...

It IS Soul Edge. Morrigan travelled to Earth through the mirror and stole Soul Edge from Darth Vader. This is why it sounds like a lightsaber.

Wait a minute.....why was Vader on Earth?

[The Angry One]

Avissel wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

It IS Soul Edge. Morrigan travelled to Earth through the mirror and stole Soul Edge from Darth Vader. This is why it sounds like a lightsaber.

Wait a minute.....why was Vader on Earth?

He was in Soul Calibur 4. Because.. um... just because I guess. There was some plot about it.. didn't pay attention.