81 réponses à ce sujet

[Ieldra]

aimlessgun wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

It is a little odd in terms of normal story structure since the destruction of the home base would be a climax of its own, so to top it you'd need the final fleet battle to be pretty goddamn epic, moreso than the smaller actions scattered around the galaxy. Feels like to properly do the Infiltration and then The War properly you'd have to make the game with a Part1 and a Part2.

Actually, the destruction of the home base is almost an afterthought, for the really important part is how the Reapers themselves are defeated. You could destroy the home base and the Reaper invasion would by stymied for some time, but the Reapers would still exist and could reorganize. Protected by their insurmountable shields, time isn't really a factor for them.

I was referring to the completion of the entire mission through the Citadel relay, including the signal. The scale and flow of that story, where Shepard is assembling this elite team and going in personally to accomplish this epic task, would feel very different than Shepard taking part in a general war. As far as shooter gameplay goes, boarding individual reapers and overloading their cores would pale in comparison to what you've already accomplished.

The scenario setup mentions that boarding individual Reapers was a tactic used before the decisive strike. It would, of course, also be used in the wrap-up after the strike, but I wouldn't expect a shooter game to feature these events as actual gameplay. The game proper would end with the destruction of the hub and the escape of the team. Everything else would be an exended cinematic sequence and perhaps a narrative. The extended wrap-up was put in because we didn't find it realistic that the war would would end so suddenly. The needs of the drama makes compromise necessary, but we didn't want a cheesy end of the kind "Protagonist strikes at X and the war is ended. Everyone is happy"

Modifié par Ieldra2, 06 avril 2011 - 07:39 .

[Rekkampum]

Ieldra2 wrote...
The constraints of the drama necessitate a central location. We need one team - in fact, one man - to deliver a decisive strike against a widely distributed force. If you can up with an idea that doesn't use something like a central hub, please don't hesitate to post it.

I'm thinking of Arrival, and Object Rho's ability to detect the Reapers impending presence. Perhaps a way to centralize the Reapers in a specific system would be to manipulate Mass relays via similar artifacts to make them unusable by Reaper ships. Though this would take a hell of alot explaining and macguffins.

[Ieldra]

Rekkampum wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
The constraints of the drama necessitate a central location. We need one team - in fact, one man - to deliver a decisive strike against a widely distributed force. If you can up with an idea that doesn't use something like a central hub, please don't hesitate to post it.

I'm thinking of Arrival, and Object Rho's ability to detect the Reapers impending presence. Perhaps a way to centralize the Reapers in a specific system would be to manipulate Mass relays via similar artifacts to make them unusable by Reaper ships. Though this would take a hell of alot explaining and macguffins.

Exactly. We did think of ways to make the Reapers converge on a central location, but found them all to be less plausible than using a communication hub. Also, infiltrating the Reapers' home base would be so cool. If rendered believably, it would be hard to match.

[Rivercurse]

Well, it's a great idea and very well thought out. The story was obviously written and finished long ago by bioware (well, the main framework anyway), but I wouldn't mind at all if this is the direction it went in.

Great work both.

[Rekkampum]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Rekkampum wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
The constraints of the drama necessitate a central location. We need one team - in fact, one man - to deliver a decisive strike against a widely distributed force. If you can up with an idea that doesn't use something like a central hub, please don't hesitate to post it.

I'm thinking of Arrival, and Object Rho's ability to detect the Reapers impending presence. Perhaps a way to centralize the Reapers in a specific system would be to manipulate Mass relays via similar artifacts to make them unusable by Reaper ships. Though this would take a hell of alot explaining and macguffins.

Exactly. We did think of ways to make the Reapers converge on a central location, but found them all to be less plausible than using a communication hub. Also, infiltrating the Reapers' home base would be so cool. If rendered believably, it would be hard to match.

Definitely. Perhaps the system the Reapers originated from.

[Ieldra]

Lizardviking wrote...
The only bad thing about this theory is that some people might not like it for simply being the suicide mission on steriods.

There is that. But the ways how a small team can affect large-scale events are unfortunately very limited. It is all dramatically (sic!) unrealistic to start with, a real war would depend much more on things like overall economic output, logistics and such than the results of commando operations. The other often used scenario, to fight the enemy boss directly, can't be used here because one Reaper might command the others, but its destruction would hardly affect the war as a whole - the next Reaper would step in.

In the end, apart from the above considerations, we found that the opportunity to infiltrate the Reaper home base was too cool to pass up. Describing that place, however, will be a challenge.

Edit:
For a game scenario, I guess some kind of boss would have to be put in that home base. I'd find that considerably less cool than having no real end boss but other kinds of difficulty, for instance a time limit, but you break game conventions at your peril, as DA2 shows.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 06 avril 2011 - 08:05 .

[aimlessgun]

Ieldra2 wrote...

The scenario setup mentions that boarding individual Reapers was a tactic used before the decisive strike. It would, of course, also be used in the wrap-up after the strike, but I wouldn't expect a shooter game to feature these events as actual gameplay. The game proper would end with the destruction of the hub and the escape of the team. Everything else would be an exended cinematic sequence and perhaps a narrative. The extended wrap-up was put in because we didn't find it realistic that the war would would end so suddenly. The needs of the drama makes compromise necessary, but we didn't want a cheesy end of the kind "Protagonist strikes at X and the war is ended. Everyone is happy"

Well as a story it works, but as a game, I think you might be caught in a bind here. Because yes the war ending suddenly with the signal would be ridiculous. But if a player only got to see the war via cinematic, they might feel "well, I sort of beat the reapers, but I didn't really beat the reapers." Also, theres the big problem of repeating ME2: if ME3 was mostly me infiltrating the reaper home base, I would feel cheated.

Another question: where does player choice fit into this framework? Especially the Big Decision.

Modifié par aimlessgun, 06 avril 2011 - 08:07 .

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...
The only bad thing about this theory is that some people might not like it for simply being the suicide mission on steriods.

There is that. But the ways how a small team can affect large-scale events are unfortunately very limited. It is all dramatically (sic!) unrealistic to start with, a real war would depend much more on things like overall economic output, logistics and such than the results of commando operations. The other often used scenario, to fight the enemy boss directly, can't be used here because one Reaper might command the others, but its destruction would hardly affect the war as a whole - the next Reaper would step in.

I'm not criticising you. Since it's a game it would demand that the ending or grand finale will involve Shepard in some way, and the  best/satisfying way to do that (from both a story and gameplay perspective) is there to be some sort of ground battle where Shepard and his squad will be utilised. And because the opponent we talk about is a fleet of giant space-robot-gods it would demand that the battle takes place on some place of importance (unless Bioware intents to have a billion "sabotage the Reaper" missions).

I know i'm just repeating what you have said in previous post in defence of the idea, I guess I just want to say it again for emphasis.

Also do you plan on expanding on this theory? Like how all the major decisions will alterate or influence the battle against the Reapers?

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

aimlessgun wrote...

Well as a story it works, but as a game, I think you might be caught in a bind here. Because yes the war ending suddenly with the signal would be ridiculous. But if a player only got to see the war via cinematic, they might feel "well, I sort of beat the reapers, but I didn't really beat the reapers." Also, theres the big problem of repeating ME2: if ME3 was mostly me infiltrating the reaper home base, I would feel cheated.

Another question: where does player choice fit into this framework? Especially the Big Decision.

The player did not really kill Sovereign directly either, most players seemed satisfied enough just killing Saren and watch Sovereign be destroyed in a cutscene.

Modifié par Lizardviking, 06 avril 2011 - 08:15 .

[Ieldra]

aimlessgun wrote...
Another question: where does player choice fit into this framework? Especially the Big Decision.

We didn't think of the details of that, but it would affect the after-the-Reapers scenario - the epilogue - more than the battle itself. So it wasn't really important at this point, and I only referred to it indirectly by saying that the scenario is highly adaptable to different political configurations. Just like the CB decision in ME2 - it didn't really affect the game but will affect the after-ME2 events. Figuring in the ME1/2 decisions isn't something we wanted to do at this point. It was enough that the scenario offers the freedom to do that to make it believable.

As for fighting the Reapers: it is impossible to make Shepard fight the Reapers directly *and* affect the outcome of the war with that without introducing a mechanic for space battles. Or do you want to fight 100 Reaper-boarding missions?

@Lizardviking:
We'll leave the integration of possible player choices to the other experts on this forum. I'll certainly not hesitate to post something if I get an idea, but for the core scenario it isn't really important. Possibly player choices will make it possible to lose the war, possibly they will only affect the after-the-victory political configuration, but the core scenario stands. The biggest change player decisions could make in it is to make it fail. But the attempt would still be made. Also remember that we thought this up for a canon-compatible fanfic, and only noticed later that it would make an excellent scenario for the game as well.

[Vanaer]

Very well thought out. I still, however, wonder that if each Reaper is a(n) (independent?) nation, sovereign, how it can be that Reapers are so homogeneous. To me it seemed like they wanted to absorb the essence of the organics they consumed to construct a Reaper. If that's so, if all Reapers are 'different' in representing a different essence, how possible is it that they're completely homogeneous in reaching their 'kill, pillage, destroy' consensus? We still haven't got it clear why they harvest organics, except that they use us to construct more Reapers (a reproduction urge?), even while Sovereign goes all 'blah blah, not comprehensible by humans' - they don't lack confidence, but very likely they're bluffing as Sovereign got destroyed as well.

If, if Reapers are truly rational they will perhaps understand that there' s a chance they will fail this time. Will this cause a Schism between those that think it's the only option to harvest and those that will perhaps cooperate? Afterall, the Geth (true/non heretic) aren't hostile to Shepard and are actively trying to comprehend organic reasoning. And they're not even Organic/Synthetic hybrids like Reapers.

Modifié par Vanaer, 06 avril 2011 - 08:24 .

[Wolverfrog]

I really don't like the idea. It's too much like the way the Shadows were incapacitated by the telepaths in Babylon 5, and Mass Effect has already drawn far too many similarities with that show.

[Ieldra]

@Vanaer:
Very interesting points. However, I'll have to be off now. But I'll get back to you.
One thing for now: there is no such thing as the "essence of a species". That's a completely unscientific conceit. Details tomorrow if you want. The Reapers' apparent homogenity would be a problem if I didn't consider it mainly a problem of artistic design. The Reapers should be different, but Bioware didn't bother to make vastly different designs just for one cutscene.

@Wolverfrog:
Since I don't know the way things were done in B5, I can't be accused of copying it

Modifié par Ieldra2, 06 avril 2011 - 08:28 .

[Wolverfrog]

I'm not saying you are, but it's there nonetheless.

[aimlessgun]

Lizardviking wrote...
The player did not really kill Sovereign directly either, most players seemed satisfied enough just killing Saren and watch Sovereign be destroyed in a cutscene.

But you do essentially kill Sovereign. You fight his avatar, his shields go down, and he dies shortly thereafter. It's not like you kill Saren and then watch Sovereign fight several weeks of naval battles in a cutscene. What is Shepard doing in this time period? Surely he's fighting the reapers in some capacity (unless you're having him die or be trapped in dark space or something). The idea of Shepard fighting reapers and not being in my control is irksome  to me.

Ieldra2 wrote...

aimlessgun wrote...
Another question: where does player choice fit into this framework? Especially the Big Decision.

We
didn't think of the details of that, but it would affect the
after-the-Reapers scenario - the epilogue - more than the battle itself.
So it wasn't really important at this point, and I only referred to it
indirectly by saying that the scenario is highly adaptable to different
political configurations. Just like the CB decision in ME2 - it didn't
really affect the game but will affect the after-ME2 events. Figuring in
the ME1/2 decisions isn't something we wanted to do at this point. It
was enough that the scenario offers the freedom to do that to make it
believable.

But does the part of the story you play give you a chance to make such a decision? You've fought your way to the heart of reaper HQ. You're going to cripple the reapers with a signal. What are you deciding? Being able to integrate a meaningful, important and interesting choice into the gameplay is very important.


PS: I hope you realize that criticism given in this thread is a Good Thing. It means you're being taken seriously. :happy:

[PnXMarcin1PL]

I can only imagine Paragon and Renegade option when Shepard conquers Reaper HQ.

Paragon: Destroy the Reapers so they will never pose a threat to anyone or anything.

Renegade:: Reprogram them, so they will serve as guardians from other galactic invasion(no destruction cycle) and will help develop organic races.

Modifié par PnXMarcin1PL, 06 avril 2011 - 08:40 .

[CulturalGeekGirl]

PnXMarcin1PL wrote...

I can only imagine Paragon and Renegade option when Shepard conquers Reaper HQ.

Paragon: Destroy the Reapers so they will never pose a threat to anyone or anything.

Renegade:: Reprogram them, so they will serve as guardians from other galactic invasion(no destruction cycle) and will help develop organic races.

Alternately: 

Paragon: destroy the Reapers, and destroy the Mass-Relay control technology (similar to how the Protheans nerfed the Keepers... Mass relays will now just be harmless tools which nobody can control.)

Renegade: destroy the Reapers, but preserve their Mass-Relay control tech, turning it over to Cerberus.

This is a Renegade option I'd be tempted to take, and I'm paragon all the way.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

aimlessgun wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...
The player did not really kill Sovereign directly either, most players seemed satisfied enough just killing Saren and watch Sovereign be destroyed in a cutscene.

But you do essentially kill Sovereign. You fight his avatar, his shields go down, and he dies shortly thereafter. It's not like you kill Saren and then watch Sovereign fight several weeks of naval battles in a cutscene. What is Shepard doing in this time period? Surely he's fighting the reapers in some capacity (unless you're having him die or be trapped in dark space or something). The idea of Shepard fighting reapers and not being in my control is irksome  to me.

Fair enough. But to take some minor liberities with this theory and change a thing or two, how about that as soon as Shepard goes to the Reaper homebase, the majority of the Reapers launch some sort attack or invasion at a vital place (A homeworld or something) and forces the allied fleets into battle. It would turn Shepard's mission into a race against time and would show cutscenes of the battle against the Reapers like ME1 did with Sovereign, then when we finally get to the end and press the big red button, we get a cutscene of the battle turning into the organics favor and they eventually win.

Could end with Shepard either making a daring escape or if things went less than smooth, have to make the ultimate sacrifice by staing behind in order to launch the signal.

[aimlessgun]

Lizardviking wrote...
Fair enough. But to take some minor liberities with this theory and change a thing or two, how about that as soon as Shepard goes to the Reaper homebase, the majority of the Reapers launch some sort attack or invasion at a vital place (A homeworld or something) and forces the allied fleets into battle. It would turn Shepard's mission into a race against time and would show cutscenes of the battle against the Reapers like ME1 did with Sovereign, then when we finally get to the end and press the big red button, we get a cutscene of the battle turning into the organics favor and they eventually win.

Could end with Shepard either making a daring escape or if things went less than smooth, have to make the ultimate sacrifice by staing behind in order to launch the signal.

The Independance Day route. And hell, it was pretty effective Independance Day. If they set it up properply it might be able to work in ME.

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

PnXMarcin1PL wrote...

I can only imagine Paragon and Renegade option when Shepard conquers Reaper HQ.

Paragon: Destroy the Reapers so they will never pose a threat to anyone or anything.

Renegade::
Reprogram them, so they will serve as guardians from other galactic
invasion(no destruction cycle) and will help develop organic
races.

Alternately: 

Paragon: destroy the Reapers,
and destroy the Mass-Relay control technology (similar to how the
Protheans nerfed the Keepers... Mass relays will now just be harmless
tools which nobody can control.)

Renegade: destroy the Reapers, but preserve their Mass-Relay control tech, turning it over to Cerberus.

This is a Renegade option I'd be tempted to take, and I'm paragon all the way.

That is an interesting choice. Though I'd hope to god you wouldn't be railroaded into turning it over to Cerberus .

Reprogramming the reapers feels like it shouldn't work, it would severely diminish them in my eyes if you could do that. I don't think of them as simply machines that can be programmed.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

aimlessgun wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

PnXMarcin1PL wrote...

I can only imagine Paragon and Renegade option when Shepard conquers Reaper HQ.

Paragon: Destroy the Reapers so they will never pose a threat to anyone or anything.

Renegade::
Reprogram them, so they will serve as guardians from other galactic
invasion(no destruction cycle) and will help develop organic
races.

Alternately: 

Paragon: destroy the Reapers,
and destroy the Mass-Relay control technology (similar to how the
Protheans nerfed the Keepers... Mass relays will now just be harmless
tools which nobody can control.)

Renegade: destroy the Reapers, but preserve their Mass-Relay control tech, turning it over to Cerberus.

This is a Renegade option I'd be tempted to take, and I'm paragon all the way.

That is an interesting choice. Though I'd hope to god you wouldn't be railroaded into turning it over to Cerberus .

Hmm. Ok, how about this:
Paragon - Destroy the tech
Neutral - Turn the tech over to everyone... Cerberus, the Alliance, and all your allies. Open Source!
Renegade - Turn the tech over to Cerberus specifically

aimlessgun wrote...
Reprogramming the reapers feels like it shouldn't work, it would severely diminish them in my eyes if you could do that. I don't think of them as simply machines that can be programmed.

I agreeeish, but if the Reapers use quantum entanglement to communicase, you might be able to disrupt their tactical communications fairly easily. Let me explain a bit. Also, I'm going to call quantum entanglement communicators "ansibles" because that is what they are called. It would make sense if the Reapers primarily use ansibles - signals can't be jammed, communications can't be overheard, it's pretty much the ideal communication technology, and people have said previously that it's implied that the Reapers use it.

Every ansible you build has only two ends. Picture it like two tin cans on a string, except that the tin cans are tiny bits of particle, and the string is string theory. Ok? Ok. This a great, truly instantaneous, reliable means of communicatoin. The problem is what EDI explains: for every two people who want to communicate, you need a new ansible pair.

Say Alice, Bob, Celia, Daphne, and Edwin all want to stay in touch via ansible. Instead of just making 5 ansible pairs, you have to make 10. A to B, A to C, A to D, A to E, B to C, B to D, B to E, C to D,  C to E, D to E. Raise the number of people in the network to 100, or 1000, and you're looking at pretty insane numbers of ansibles required. So, the common solution is to have an old-fashioned switchboard. Every ship has just one Ansible each, and all these ship ansibles connect to the Ansible hub, at Z.  Then if A &B want to talk, they just call Z and he connects them. Easy as pie, still instantaneously fast.

Now, if the Reapers are using ansibles to communicate, to coordinate their attacks, then destroying the hub at Z will screw over all communications. They'll be in the dark, and unable to collaborate. This may be startling enough to distract them, and would certainly interfere with their tactics.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 07 avril 2011 - 12:26 .

[aimlessgun]

All that is quite correct. But I'm not sure what it has to do with reprogramming? Unless you meant to quote something else?

As for the choice, sure. I personally very much want an option for Shepard to pursue personal power after the events of ME3, but I don't know how many people share that desire. (basically an option where you're not just turning this tech over for free, you're using it).

[CulturalGeekGirl]

aimlessgun wrote...

All that is quite correct. But I'm not sure what it has to do with reprogramming? Unless you meant to quote something else?

As for the choice, sure. I personally very much want an option for Shepard to pursue personal power after the events of ME3, but I don't know how many people share that desire. (basically an option where you're not just turning this tech over for free, you're using it).

Heh, sorry. I didn't make myself clear.

I was meaning to imply that blowing up their ansible core might have a similar effect to "hacking" or "virusing" them... that is to say, they'd be shocked enough for the  next few minutes that we'd be able to turn the tide, and they'd be disorganzied enough after that we'd have a fighting chance.

So you get the same result without the uncomfortable ID4 analogue.

[Vanaer]

I'd expect: Paragon: Free Reapers from system that controls their behavior to be set on 'harvest organics' to 'peaceful cooperation' (like the Geth).

Neutral: Destroy Reapers and the Reaper home base

Renegade: Destroy Reapers and keep base

[jkflipflopDAO]

I would think the quantum switchboard would be the citadel. Only the keepers can access the main core of the place. Who knows what all it does.

In the books, Greyson gets shot up with a syringe full of reaper nanobots courtesy of the Illusive Man. The nanobots themselves create a quantum comm device for the reapers to remote control him. This tells me that they don't have to have matched pairs since one end was manufactured on the fly. I would think the reapers have mastered quantum manipulation to the point they can tune the quantum spin to create different channels like on a TV using the same device. If that were the case, they wouldn't need a switchboard.

[Arijharn]

While I like the broad points of this; I still think that essentially using a thought-bomb to overwhelm the majority of the Reapers and their defenses (to varying degrees) is while possibly plausible, to still be a bit of a deus ex.

The reason why I think this is because of what Sovereign says (paraphrasing): "We are each an independent nation." This implies to me that while they share a frame of ideology, I can't buy the concept that they are completely 'in-tune' to each other, if for no other reason that Sovereign and Harbinger act a little differently (Sovereign appears completely contemptuous for organic species, or at least as to how I interpreted it whereas Harbinger appears to 'ascend' humanity at least to the next evolutionary step (once again, how I interpreted it)). If they are not completely 'in-tune' then I would imagine the thought-bomb as you described would be impossible, if only because they aren't 'as one.'

Let me try an analogy, while you may love your wife, or your gf, etc, and while you may share similar thought-processes and even share interests, you are not one person. As it is with the Reapers; who, if nothing else, more 'human-like' in comparison than say the Geth (and even they had a massive schism; the True and Heretics). Within each individual Reaper though; it is as Legion said: "They are one ship, one will, many minds." I think of that as say many processes running nominally independent of one another; but together they follow the prompts of the 'will.'