81 réponses à ce sujet

[Ieldra]

@Arijharn:
The only requirement for the scenario to work is that the Reapers are in almost continuous communication with each other. It's not a "thought-bomb". It's more akin to an EMP - in quantum entanglement terms (if they're using that which is not established), use so many entangled particles at the same time that the energy output overloads their brains.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 07 avril 2011 - 10:04 .

[Arijharn]

I see, I'm not sure how you can adequately explain an EMP type effect overloading higher brain functions though across an entire species throughout the entire galaxy and still make it sound 'scientific,' although systematic destruction of the entire Reaper species purely by 'force of arms' seems even more impossible.

I can buy that sort of weaponry being developed and deployed on a smaller scale however (aka; as part of fleet operations), just not the idea that you can do it from a centralized location from outside the galaxy.

Therefore the game would sort of become a 'race against time' in essence, in which Shephard and co (aka; the alliance of convenience) must seek to 'slow down' the Reapers in time for the coup de grace be deployed.

[Ieldra]

Arijharn wrote...
I see, I'm not sure how you can adequately explain an EMP type effect overloading higher brain functions though across an entire species throughout the entire galaxy and still make it sound 'scientific,' although systematic destruction of the entire Reaper species purely by 'force of arms' seems even more impossible.

I can buy that sort of weaponry being developed and deployed on a smaller scale however (aka; as part of fleet operations), just not the idea that you can do it from a centralized location from outside the galaxy.

Distance is not a factor with the kind of communcication used. Protection is. You'd not be able to create a pulse strong enough to penetrate the Reapers' shields, the thing has to come from a "trusted source". And if you can send information, you can, in principle, also send energy. If the Reapers can possess the Collector General and communicate with Paul Greyson from their home base, sending a high-energy pulse is just a matter of magnitude, not a problem in principle. it is a technological problem, not a scientific one.

Sure the science is basically wrong as well when you get deep enough into it, but that's a problem of the ME universe. We were using only those elements already present in the established universe. Even with the home base hub - it is simply the most efficient setup if your communication network consists of point-to-point elements and distance is not a factor - relays or QE stations, doesn't matter. As explained by CulturalGeekGirl on the previous page.

Therefore the game would sort of become a 'race against time' in essence, in which Shephard and co (aka; the alliance of convenience) must seek to 'slow down' the Reapers in time for the coup de grace be deployed.

The problem with that scenario is that the war would, for all intents and purposes, already been won when the coup de grace is delivered. While this is very realistic, it wouldn't do for this story. Not dramatic enough. Also the problem remains that the pulse must come from a trusted source. Meaning a Reaper device. Remember that the main purpose of this is to make the Reapers vulnerable to attack in the first place. You'd have to make a lot more assumptions about the capabilities and limits of the Reapers in your version.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 07 avril 2011 - 01:10 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Ieldra2 wrote...

As a result, almost all Reapers experienced a mental shock that incapacitated them for a limited time, temporarily disabling critical functions and rendering their insurmountable shields inactive. The forces of the allied species of Citadel civilization thus gained the time and opportunity to attack with the full force of their fleets. The resulting battles were by no means easy, since the Reapers retained use of their weaponry and not all of them could be located in time to make full use of the incapacitating strike.

Why is their fleet all in one place?

If they retain their ability to use weapons, why not engines?

If they have other systems, why not flee FTL and escape until they can recover their insurmountable shields?

Why did the Reapers not know that their FTL-quantam-communication base was being breached and at threat and still remain in a needless battle?

[Arijharn]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Arijharn wrote...
I see, I'm not sure how you can adequately explain an EMP type effect overloading higher brain functions though across an entire species throughout the entire galaxy and still make it sound 'scientific,' although systematic destruction of the entire Reaper species purely by 'force of arms' seems even more impossible.

I can buy that sort of weaponry being developed and deployed on a smaller scale however (aka; as part of fleet operations), just not the idea that you can do it from a centralized location from outside the galaxy.

Distance is not a factor with the kind of communcication used. Protection is. You'd not be able to create a pulse strong enough to penetrate the Reapers' shields, the thing has to come from a "trusted source". And if you can send information, you can, in principle, also send energy. If the Reapers can possess the Collector General and communicate with Paul Greyson from their home base, sending a high-energy pulse is just a matter of magnitude, not a problem in principle. it is a technological problem, not a scientific one.

Sure the science is basically wrong as well when you get deep enough into it, but that's a problem of the ME universe. We were using only those elements already present in the established universe. Even with the home base hub - it is simply the most efficient setup if your communication network consists of point-to-point elements - relays or QE stations, doesn't matter. As explained by CulturalGeekGirl on the previous page.

Therefore the game would sort of become a 'race against time' in essence, in which Shephard and co (aka; the alliance of convenience) must seek to 'slow down' the Reapers in time for the coup de grace be deployed.

The problem with that scenario is that the war would, for all intents and purposes, already been won when the coup de grace is delivered. While this is very realistic, it wouldn't do for this story. Not dramatic enough. Also the problem remains that the pulse must come from a trusted source. Meaning a Reaper device. Remember that the main purpose of this is to make the Reapers vulnerable to attack in the first place. You'd have to make a lot more assumptions about the capabilities and limits of the Reapers in your version.

I'm not arguing that it would be impossible for them to be in constant communication with each other such as utilizing a quantum entanglement communicator, I'm arguing that it's hard (for me at least) to think that it would be able to be used as some sort of galaxy wide screech to disorient them all simultaneously, if only because I find it unlikely that they 'fully trust each other' (i.e, do not have any degree of safeguards -- not because they suspect someone else to be able to custom design a device that would exploit this shortcoming, but because they are each a 'sovereign nation onto themselves' essentially).

You screeching into my ear may disorientate me, but if I'm talking to someone on the phone, I'm not sure you'll also disorientate them as well at the same time... 

I totally understand what you're getting at though, I just find it implausible as to how you've currently got it working.

With my idea of a localized weapon (that fulfills the same basic function as your intergalactic version) you are affecting individual Reapers, which to me at least sounds more plausible, since I see nothing wrong with your idea as a basic principle, just on the degree of working as it assumes familiarity within the Reapers, and I'm unsure about the merit of that supposition, if only because Harbinger and Sovereign seemed to operate quite differently from each other, which as I see it, promotes a degree of division within themselves, which may mean some degree of safeguards.

Does that make sense?

[Ieldra]

@Dean:
(1) Their fleet is not in one place. The scenario is explicitly made around them being exactly not in one place. Read again.
(2) The template was the effect on Sovereign when Zombie-Saren was destroyed. But total incapacitation appeared to easy for dramatic effect. It is, admittedly, an arbitrary limitation made purely for the purpose of making epic space battles necessary. I'm sure I could fudge a technical reason, but do I need to?
(3) See above. Perhaps it would be more plausible to go for total incapacitation, yes? There is a precedent after all. Or limit the space battles to those few who escaped the effect altogether. It is still considerably less dramatic. I wanted to avoid the effect "Protagonist hits button and the war is won".
(4) Perhaps they think their home base cannot be reached by the organics and didn't have good enough security? Perhaps they thought the Citadel relay was destroyed along with the rest of the Citadel, which would mean the home base could indeed not be reached. At some point, the Reapers must have made a big mistake or any "we win" scenario must go down the drain.

@Arijharn:
I understand. You think that pulse would have to be tailored to each Reaper, yes? There would need to be a different trusted source for each Reaper, yes? The main problem is a dramatic one: we need *one* showdown, not 4000. If you can get that into your version, I'm game.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 07 avril 2011 - 01:38 .

[jkflipflopDAO]

Quantum devices like that don't work on frequencies and amplitude. Radio waves do. That's why it's possible to "burn out" a device with an EMP . . . it's just a gigantic tidal wave of frequencies with the amplitude cranked up through the roof.

Quantum devices use no such frequency and there is no such thing as amplitude to a quantum device. Science is against you.

[Ieldra]

jkflipflopDAO wrote...
Quantum devices like that don't work on frequencies and amplitude. Radio waves do. That's why it's possible to "burn out" a device with an EMP . . . it's just a gigantic tidal wave of frequencies with the amplitude cranked up through the roof.

Quantum devices use no such frequency and there is no such thing as amplitude to a quantum device. Science is against you.

If you can transmit information through a QE device, you can also set energy free that exists at the other end. If you transfer a quantum state, you also define an energy level. It wouldn't be EMP, but I didn't say it would be. I used EMP as an analogy. The goal is to deliver into the Reaper brain enough energy to disrupt its function.

Besides, I didn't say they used quantum devices, I posited that as a possibility. They may use mass relay technology for communication, and then your objection collapses even more obviously.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 07 avril 2011 - 03:51 .

[Destroy Raiden_]

Elyvern wrote...

Another point to note: notice we talk about the "slave mind" phenomenon? It would also perfectly justify the Collectors' interest in Shepard. Shepard is intended to be the slave mind of the new human Reaper, hence Collector interest in him because they are the workers for the Reapers, the ones that build new copies of them. 

This would be better for me anyway as to why they want shep rather then they just wanted to send his body to the smoothie factory and peak at what linking with the prothean devices may have done to his mind.

[jkflipflopDAO]

Ieldra2 wrote...

jkflipflopDAO wrote...
Quantum devices like that don't work on frequencies and amplitude. Radio waves do. That's why it's possible to "burn out" a device with an EMP . . . it's just a gigantic tidal wave of frequencies with the amplitude cranked up through the roof.

Quantum devices use no such frequency and there is no such thing as amplitude to a quantum device. Science is against you.

If you can transmit information through a QE device, you can also set energy free that exists at the other end. If you transfer a quantum state, you also define an energy level. It wouldn't be EMP, but I didn't say it would be. I used EMP as an analogy. The goal is to deliver into the Reaper brain enough energy to disrupt its function.

Besides, I didn't say they used quantum devices, I posited that as a possibility. They may use mass relay technology for communication, and then your objection collapses even more obviously.

Well, they do use quantum devices, you are correct there. 

The rest of it is plausible. At the very least you could scale it down and have EDI come up with a omni-tool program that could rip out the eyes of a reaper as it were. Sever their quantum connection by throwing the qubit to random states or something. 

They seem to have mastered this quantum thing, though. I would imagine they all have P2P connections to one another directly as well as links to the important things around the galaxy like the relays and the citadel. To us, making a quantum comm device is a monumentally expensive and time consuming process. To them, they just have to think about it and the nano bots make a new one. You only need one for every one of your buddies. It's the same as saving a big friend's list.

[Ieldra]

Yeah, scaling it down to affecting just one Reaper at a time does appear more plausible - only as I said before, we need *one* showdown, not 4000. And whatever attack we use, it must come from a trusted source or it won't get through the shields. That's why we used the Reaper home base.

As for the quantum network, the most efficient way to connect N entities using point-to-point communication devices is to use a central hub, because that way you only need N*2 sets of entangled pairs instead of (N^2)/2. Connecting 4000 Reapers with point-to-point devices would need 8000 sets of pairs using a central hub, but 8 million sets of pairs if you connect every Reaper to every other. Even worse, each time you add a new Reaper new sets of pairs would would have to be installed in every other Reaper. It's certainly possible they'd still use the bigger network because of its lower vulnerability, but the central hub setup is far from implausible.

Besides, infiltrating the Reaper home base would be ultra-cool..... I want to see that alien Cthulhu-esque architecture.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 07 avril 2011 - 05:20 .

[Ieldra]

Here's another question:

When we made this scenario, we weren't sure if it is canon that the Reapers use quantum entanglement communication. The only place I know where it is explicitly said is "Retribution" where Grayson's implants were said to communicate with the Reapers that way.

Is there any other hint?

[aimlessgun]

Your theory has survived the first wave of ME3 information. How do you feel?

[Elyvern]

Which first wave would that be? From gameinformer?

[Arijharn]

Ieldra, you say one 'showdown' but it's just so sudden in the sense that you have effectively ended the threat already. If it's a fleet operation you potentially would have to do it against many reapers at once in a localised 'air-space,' which to me at least sounds like it'd add to the dramatic element.

For example; say... 30 Reapers are fighting above Palaven (insert a meaningful number if 30 doesn't sound as bad ass as much as you'd like), you deploy your weapon and momentarily disrupt those 30 Reapers. You then proceed to destroy them in time (or not) and the extent of Palaven's damage could be worked out by how much and how quickly you disrupt the Reapers.

However, at the same time (or close too), Reapers are causing devastation on other planets, so the quicker you can sort out the Reapers on Palaven, the quicker you can 'sort out' other invasions, and you'd have a waterfall type effect based on this principle (which could mean, if the BioWare writers are ruthless enough, that some planets would be completely destroyed/harvested/etc). Choosing to ignore certain systems would 'add' to the clock to save other planets and so on.

The point is; I feel for your solution it lets us off 'too easy' in the sense that 'all' we have to do is go into the darkspace home of the Reapers and flip the switches in 'relative' safety. It removes us too much from what is at stake imo.

[Ieldra]

@Arijharn:
Actually I agree with you.

I only described the end of the war. Elyvern's original scenario which I tweaked for my post was that this is the end of a seven-year war, during which some inroads had been made to take out Reapers, namely those boarding operations which were more successful in the original fanfic scenario, and which were made possible after Miranda found a way to counter indoctrination. We didn't say how many Reapers were taken out that way - it would've been significant, but not decisive.

Perhaps I should've kept that timeline when posting, but I think that Bioware will compress the timeline beyond the limits of the believable yet again, so I put 2187 in. I would certainly prefer a longer war with more back-and-forth and desperate battles to delay the Reapers until the big strike can be delivered, but I would be very surprised if we actually got that in ME3.

[Reever]

I just read the last chapter of the fic!! Nice writing, great cliffhanger, now get it on with the next chapter =D (It´s almost a month since the last update =( )

Nice idea for getting rid of the reapers! Seems plausible, but let´s see how dark energy affects this whole isse...

[Jzadek72]

I will admit, I'm not fond of the hub idea. It tends to be almost as weak a plot idea as a deus ex machina. If pulled off well, it *might* work, but it would raise questions about the massive design flaw in creating something like that.

[Reever]

^ Do you really think that such "omnipotent" beings, the Reapers see themselves as, would ever think some mortals would get to their hub? I think one can apply the same mentality as with the Collector base...They never thought somebody could get past their first line of defense!

[Kaiser Shepard]

I'm not really sold on the idea of a "central Reaper base" just conveniently being there for us to access and abuse. If anything, the Citadel is probably it, but only in that it is the object their plans are based around.

Personally, I find the idea of doing what Saren planned to do, namely activating the Citadel Relay ourselves to 'warp' all Reapers from wherever they were to the Widow System, to be a far more realistic one.

[HealthyGiraffe]

Lizardviking wrote...

The only bad thing about this theory is that some people might not like it for simply being the suicide mission on steriods.

Yeah, but what idea would please everyone? People on this forum complain about just about everything in the game. 

[VioletSparks]

wait what? reapers have a homeworld now?

[Chuvvy]

What if... we took the galaxy... and pushed it... somewhere else? Then the Reapers would be all. "lol guise didn't we park teh milky way heer/ guess we must have losed it lol."

[Ieldra]

The next chapter of the fanfic that uses this scenario is up (that is, the strike team's part, not the fleet battles). For those only interested in the attack on the Reaper base, switch forward to the flashback in Chapter 5, part 2.

[Reever]

I´m so glad you guys updated! Good job! (already commented on ff.net)
Can´t wait for the next chapters =)