400 réponses à ce sujet

[Raiil]

I really don't think we can get a good answer unless we get a dev to tell us, because Alistair was telling a truth (what he believed to be a truth) regarding lyrium and what the game says- which can be the truth, or an opinion piece like a codex- something else.

[Mnemnosyne]

It wasn't just what he believed to be a truth - he knows it to be a truth, since he doesn't take lyrium and he has templar abilities.

[Rifneno]

Koyasha wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Play a Warrior Hawke and look up the Templar Specialization rules.  It tells you that lyrium is definately required and that you fuel it with illicit lyrium from your connections.

-Polaris

And yet there's no in-game reference to that whatsoever, just a tooltip/description that says that.  It's never referenced, there's no banters about it, etc.  Unless it's actually acknowledged by even a single character in the game I find it hard to count as even having happened at all, and even if it did, nothing in those descriptions directly contradicts Alistair.  It doesn't say 'and there are no exceptions!'

If something is going to be changed like that, I think there would be at least the same 'level' of exposition involved in changing the story.  The story from Alistair is exposed in a meaningful conversation (which I might add even has an approval boost/penalty depending on your responses).  It's a much more significant exposition level than a tooltip description.  I have no question that the Alistair conversation received more attention and scrutiny than the tooltip, so it takes more than a couple lines in a tooltip to revert that clear and specific exposition.

Because logic dictates.  If all it took was one rogue templar to spill the beans, no lyrium or anything, then everyone and their brother would know.  You can't keep something that many people knew a secret.  Besides, we don't have an explanation for lots of other things.  Why is Leliana alive even if the Warden played soccer with head severed head?  How did Justice merge with Anders if we left him (Justice) a destroyed heap of zombiewarden at the bottom of Drake's Fall?  Why does nug taste like chicken?  Some thing we just have to accept.

[Elessie]

How I interpret it, the spec description is not saying templars needs lyrium to use templar abilities. It's saying -you- need lyrium to "emulate the abilities of those vigilant warriors." As in, you do not have templar training. To match the templars, without their training, you need lyrium. That's how I read it, I'm sure other people read it differently though.

[Avissel]

Elessie wrote...

How I interpret it, the spec description is not saying templars needs lyrium to use templar abilities. It's saying -you- need lyrium to "emulate the abilities of those vigilant warriors." As in, you do not have templar training. To match the templars, without their training, you need lyrium. That's how I read it, I'm sure other people read it differently though.

That's actaully a pretty reasonable interpretation.

[errant_knight]

Avissel wrote...

Elessie wrote...

How I interpret it, the spec description is not saying templars needs lyrium to use templar abilities. It's saying -you- need lyrium to "emulate the abilities of those vigilant warriors." As in, you do not have templar training. To match the templars, without their training, you need lyrium. That's how I read it, I'm sure other people read it differently though.

That's actaully a pretty reasonable interpretation.

Yes, emulate is an important word that hasn't been mentione in this discussion prior to now, I think.

[Urazz]

Rifneno wrote...

Koyasha wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Play a Warrior Hawke and look up the Templar Specialization rules.  It tells you that lyrium is definately required and that you fuel it with illicit lyrium from your connections.

-Polaris

And yet there's no in-game reference to that whatsoever, just a tooltip/description that says that.  It's never referenced, there's no banters about it, etc.  Unless it's actually acknowledged by even a single character in the game I find it hard to count as even having happened at all, and even if it did, nothing in those descriptions directly contradicts Alistair.  It doesn't say 'and there are no exceptions!'

If something is going to be changed like that, I think there would be at least the same 'level' of exposition involved in changing the story.  The story from Alistair is exposed in a meaningful conversation (which I might add even has an approval boost/penalty depending on your responses).  It's a much more significant exposition level than a tooltip description.  I have no question that the Alistair conversation received more attention and scrutiny than the tooltip, so it takes more than a couple lines in a tooltip to revert that clear and specific exposition.

Because logic dictates.  If all it took was one rogue templar to spill the beans, no lyrium or anything, then everyone and their brother would know.  You can't keep something that many people knew a secret.  Besides, we don't have an explanation for lots of other things.  Why is Leliana alive even if the Warden played soccer with head severed head?  How did Justice merge with Anders if we left him (Justice) a destroyed heap of zombiewarden at the bottom of Drake's Fall?  Why does nug taste like chicken?  Some thing we just have to accept.

I think the Chantry basically solved that issue by making the templars addicted to Lyrium so that way they degenerate into addicts like Samson that worry about their next 'fix', or they end up dying to withdrawl.

And didn't Alistair pretty much say that the lyrium is more to make the templar abilities more effective.  So lorewise, any non templar learning templar abilities will be weaker than fully trained, lyrium addicted templars.  Not to mention the training must be pretty harsh that without the lyrium to enhance the results, it just isn't worth trying to learn to most people.

[IanPolaris]

Urazz,

I dunno about that. I think a lot of royal armies or even guard forces would love to get their hands on even diminished Templar abilities since it would at least give a mundane warrior a fighting chance against a lot of magic. The only ones I see not being all that interested would be the Deep Dwarves who already resist magic and have their own specialists (LotD Scouts) who can (temporarily) even make themselves immune from all magic.

-Polaris

[errant_knight]

Urazz wrote...
I think the Chantry basically solved that issue by making the templars addicted to Lyrium so that way they degenerate into addicts like Samson that worry about their next 'fix', or they end up dying to withdrawl.

And didn't Alistair pretty much say that the lyrium is more to make the templar abilities more effective.  So lorewise, any non templar learning templar abilities will be weaker than fully trained, lyrium addicted templars.  Not to mention the training must be pretty harsh that without the lyrium to enhance the results, it just isn't worth trying to learn to most people.

He says that it's to make them more effective--and maybe not even that. Then he says that he's never noticed the need for it and he thinks it's just a way for the Chantry to control their army.

[Mnemnosyne]

Admittedly, since he never actually took the lyrium, he can't personally vouch for the difference in effectiveness. I'm perfectly willing to buy that the lyrium makes templars much more effective, but not, without a very, very clear statement otherwise, that lyrium is absolutely required.

The point about emulating the abilities is also a good one. Alistair has had proper templar training and discipline, and passes that on to the Warden. Hawke never gets training, obviously, and if the tooltips are significant at all, they may be written from that point of view.

[BubbleDncr]

I really hope all this mysterious stuff going on in Ferelden is a good reason to bring our Warden back. I mean, who better to help solve this issue? I can imagine our Warden starts out in Ferelden, dealing with these problems, and then goes on a mission to Orlais, where most of the game takes place.

[IanPolaris]

BubbleDncr wrote...

I really hope all this mysterious stuff going on in Ferelden is a good reason to bring our Warden back. I mean, who better to help solve this issue? I can imagine our Warden starts out in Ferelden, dealing with these problems, and then goes on a mission to Orlais, where most of the game takes place.

Given how the Devs (esp DG) are going lately, your former Warden will be the primary villian along with a possessed King Alistair/Queen Anora.  EIther the warden-blood-mage will be raising the dead and creating Ancient Tevinter Mark 2, or he will be the love slave of Morrigan who is doing just that.

All throughout we will be told how stupid we were to side with mages and consider them even remotely like human beings.  Bank on it.

-Polaris

[PantheraOnca]

IanPolaris wrote...

Given how the Devs (esp DG) are going lately, your former Warden will be the primary villian along with a possessed King Alistair/Queen Anora.  EIther the warden-blood-mage will be raising the dead and creating Ancient Tevinter Mark 2, or he will be the love slave of Morrigan who is doing just that.

All throughout we will be told how stupid we were to side with mages and consider them even remotely like human beings.  Bank on it.

-Polaris

I was going to write something smart-ass, but decided against it and I am going to assume you are just messing around.

[IanPolaris]

PantheraOnca wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Given how the Devs (esp DG) are going lately, your former Warden will be the primary villian along with a possessed King Alistair/Queen Anora.  EIther the warden-blood-mage will be raising the dead and creating Ancient Tevinter Mark 2, or he will be the love slave of Morrigan who is doing just that.

All throughout we will be told how stupid we were to side with mages and consider them even remotely like human beings.  Bank on it.

-Polaris

I was going to write something smart-ass, but decided against it and I am going to assume you are just messing around.

I wish I were.  I am using hyperbole but I am doing so to make a point.  Apparently the Devs are so upset at the pro-mage nature of the majority of their players (at least in DAO) that the are going to great lengths to try to smear mages.  They've already retconned multiple characters to fit the new anti-mage mold.  What makes you think that DA3 is going to be any different?

-Polaris

[PantheraOnca]

IanPolaris wrote...

PantheraOnca wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Given how the Devs (esp DG) are going lately, your former Warden will be the primary villian along with a possessed King Alistair/Queen Anora.  EIther the warden-blood-mage will be raising the dead and creating Ancient Tevinter Mark 2, or he will be the love slave of Morrigan who is doing just that.

All throughout we will be told how stupid we were to side with mages and consider them even remotely like human beings.  Bank on it.

-Polaris

I was going to write something smart-ass, but decided against it and I am going to assume you are just messing around.

I wish I were.  I am using hyperbole but I am doing so to make a point.  Apparently the Devs are so upset at the pro-mage nature of the majority of their players (at least in DAO) that the are going to great lengths to try to smear mages.  They've already retconned multiple characters to fit the new anti-mage mold.  What makes you think that DA3 is going to be any different?

-Polaris

The fact that their heavy-handed approach has met with a lot of dissatisfaction, and that maybe they'll be able to take their time writing a less in-your-face, more plausible tale of how the templar are actually good guys and not just oppressors of the "freedom-loving" mages.

The head-bashing they did with BLOODMAGE SMASH AND SUMMON DEMONS AND ZOMBIEMOM hasn't really changed my opinion on the plight of mages. By increasing irrationality and zealousness on both sides, they've simply made the mages the unjustly oppressed to the slighty-less-so-but-still unjustly oppressed.

This is not me saying that the circle system should be abandoned, or that it is unecessary, but that it needs to be different than it is if they want me to side with the templar. A good way to do this would have been to have 1 or 2 apostate mages turn to blood magic and wipe out an entire section of the city in say, act 1, that isn't rebuilt until act 3 to show what damage non-circle mages can do and allow meredith's paranoia to make some kind of sense. Instead we have many apostates and blood mages that have a relatively minor effect on life in kirkwall. I mean, what Quentin did was horrible, but it was relatively low-scale (as far as the effect on Kirkwall's population) horrible, and someone like the guy who spoke with "demons" could just have easily have had the same effect without magic, namely killing women and sewing bits of them together ala Fringed.

Basically, this game made blood magic seem less scary. Which makes the Templar look even kookier.

[errant_knight]

Well, I never thought they were unjustly oppressed. They were opressed, but for valid reasons. The question is how to give them more freedom while still protecting the populace from a real threat, and that's not all that easy. But that debate is the subject of another thread, I think. It would completely consume this one until we weren't talking about Ferelden and the circle in DA3 based on what we know from DA2 at all.

[Conduit0]

I think the whole Templar thing can be potentially explained. What the templars are able to do it is clearly magical, so honestly I don't see any amount of rigerous training allowing you to produce those effects without a source of power to draw upon. Its atleast possible that some people have a stronger affinity towards magic than others, not enough to be a mage, but enough to power the templar abilities. While others with lesser affinities require the lyrium to make it work.
I also don't buy the idea that lyrium's addictiveness is an all or nothing deal. Mages use lyrium regularly for all kinds of things and yet the only addle-minded junkies in a circle, are the templars. Which to me pretty much confirms that the addictive properties are a matter of dosage.

As for Leliana, other than her being alive, I don't see her being a Seeker as being a retcon. Regardless of romance or hardening, Leliana was already gone by the time Awakening starts, so clearly she wasn't as crazy for the Warden as some people would like to imagine. So I don't really see it as a problem that in the 7 year span Leliana rejoined the Chantry and became a Seeker.

[NedPepper]

IanPolaris wrote...

Conduit0 wrote...

nedpepper wrote...

Conduit0 wrote...

What I find interesting about the whole situation is that Fereldan stands to go from being just a podunk backwater country to potentially being the most powerful nation in Thedas. We already know that boon or not Alistair and Anora are openly pro-mage and shelter apostates. If Fereldan's pro-mage stance is public knowledge, than it would stand to reason that many, if not most of the mages rebelling would flee to Fereldan. This could potentially give Fereldan not just a circle, but an entire mage army at its disposal. Taking things even further, its also possible that if Fereldan chooses to directly oppose the Chantry, that Orzammar might throw their lot in with Fereldan, afterall if the Chantry's stranglehold on the lyrium trade ends, Orzammar will be richer than its ever been.

.

I see a split.  Some go to Fereldan, some go to Tevinter.  Tevinter is not about to let this oppurtunity go to waste...

From what I understand, the rank and file mages in Tevinter aren't that much better off than mages in the rest of Thedas, its only the Magisters that have freedom and power. So I could maybe see some First Enchanters or a handful of other very high ranking mages heading there hoping to become a magister, for everyone else though, it wouldn't be much of an improvement.

I could even see relations between Tevinter and Fereldan improve to cordial (esp if Fereldan does pull a 'Church of England' and create a third branch of the Chantry) not because they like each other very much but because they'd share some mutual interests and simply aren't close enough to be a threat to each other.

-Polaris

Possibly.  But there's undeniable stubborn streak with Fereledan to go its own way.  The Tevinter Imperium still has that boogey-man stigma.  But, war creates strange bedfellows, so it's certainly possible.  I love the idea of nations uniting in a World War type atmosphere.

I still think Tevinter might change their stance and come across as "mage friendly."  A kind "come one, come all, we're a pro mage nation."  And I think many mages will heed that call.  They're being hunted.  Where to go? And where would Templar be afraid to roam?  And Fereldan might be the place the rogue templars come to first if Alistar, a former brother, is really helping the mages he "swore" to safegaurd. 

[NedPepper]

Rifneno wrote...

Re: templars and lyrium.

It's a retcon guys.  Accept it.  Thermal clips said hi.

nedpepper wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Fair enough and she (apparently) wasn't lying about her name.  I'm quickly running out of things she doesn' lie about.  Really starting to dislike the 'new" Lelianna.

-Polaris

Agreed.  They need to stop completely changing pre-existing characters when a new character serves the same purpose just as well.  First Anders and Justice declare jihad, now Leliana was lying the whole time?

And for the growing "maybe Leliana is a title" crowd (which I honestly thought was just a joke at first): if this wasn't the same one from DAO, there wouldn't be a scene where Isabela recognizes her and cracks a joke if the Warden threesomed them in DAO.

 
I don't think you have to hate Leliana if she lied to the Warden.  She's a bard.  It's what she does.  It just makes her more complex.  And it's just a theory, so let's not start a "Kill Leliana (Again)" thread.  It just poses an interesting  question.  I LIKE that the next game may have our former companions taking different sides.  It's what makes DA interesting.  You may have killed an Archdemon together, but times are a-changing.

Yes, it does mean I have to hate her.  I don't accept "so what she's a bard, she lies and uses people" anymore than I accept "so what if he killed mommy so he could use her face for a zombiewife, he's a blood mage, they do that."  It doesn't make her complex, it makes her a ****.  I'm okay with characters growing and progressing.  I'm not okay with having 3 characters COMPLETELY changed in one fell swoop.

We're just GUESSING, dude.  We don't know what is really going on with Leliana.  Save your rage for when we find out.

[BubbleDncr]

errant_knight wrote...

Well, I never thought they were unjustly oppressed. They were opressed, but for valid reasons. The question is how to give them more freedom while still protecting the populace from a real threat, and that's not all that easy. But that debate is the subject of another thread, I think. It would completely consume this one until we weren't talking about Ferelden and the circle in DA3 based on what we know from DA2 at all.

To me, it made sense ever since I finished DA2 that somehow, Ferelden is going to play an important role in DA3. It seems like with the mages and templars rebeling, that would cause a lot of problems for Orlais. It seems like the Chantry and Orlias would have to go to war with any countries that supported the mages. And there were already rumors of them trying to take back Ferelden.

I thik the devs will come up with something that happened with the Ferelden Circle that will put the king/queen of Ferelden on the side of the mages, even if the boon wasn't chosen - I mean, afterall, the boon to free the mages really will be in the minority - only 1 of 6 origins got to pick it, and it was one of like, 4 choices you could ask for.

Or maybe the king/queen of ferelden will ask the Hero of Ferelden what side they think they should take. And then the Hero goes to Orlais to try and work some things out, but most of the quests will deal with relating to your companions, or other "non templar vs. mage" issues (maybe a lot of just ferelden vs orlais issues), so there's only one real section of the game that involves the warden having to pick sides, much like the end of DA2.

To me, it just makes sense that the Hero of Ferelden would get involved. And DA3 could take place in the last 3 years of DA2 (the skipped ones), so the game would end with them disappearing.  It seems like it would be easier than DA3 starting with Hawke, because Hawke has already picked a side, and the whole game would have to reflect that.

So yea...to sum up, I think whatever happened with the Ferelden Circle is an excellent kick-off point for DA3.

[Mnemnosyne]

Conduit0 wrote...

I also don't buy the idea that lyrium's addictiveness is an all or nothing deal. Mages use lyrium regularly for all kinds of things and yet the only addle-minded junkies in a circle, are the templars. Which to me pretty much confirms that the addictive properties are a matter of dosage.

Using it to fuel magic may be argued to 'burn off' the lyrium, thus eliminating any potential addictive effect, while a templar doesn't have magic to use, so the lyrium remains in their system and affects them.

[The Angry One]

Lyrium taken by Templars and Lyrium used by mages is different, the Templar Lyrium is specially prepared and is probably a formula developed in secret by the Chantry (that fell into the black market anyway).

Modifié par The Angry One, 08 avril 2011 - 12:29 .

[RazorrX]

I Ignore the tool tip as being rumor and conjecture and go with what I was told by a trained templar in game (DA:O). Lyrium is not needed.

[LobselVith8]

IanPolaris wrote...

Given how the Devs (esp DG) are going lately, your former Warden will be the primary villian along with a possessed King Alistair/Queen Anora.  EIther the warden-blood-mage will be raising the dead and creating Ancient Tevinter Mark 2, or he will be the love slave of Morrigan who is doing just that.

All throughout we will be told how stupid we were to side with mages and consider them even remotely like human beings.  Bank on it.

-Polaris

Or we'll be told how fans are siding with mages by default again.

[tmp7704]

IanPolaris wrote...

Apparently the Devs are so upset at the pro-mage nature of the majority of their players (at least in DAO) that the are going to great lengths to try to smear mages.  They've already retconned multiple characters to fit the new anti-mage mold.  What makes you think that DA3 is going to be any different?

Uhmm which characters are these retconned people?

Didn't personally see much of smear campaign to speak of in DA2. It's more like they showed that people backed into a corner may reach for desperate measures, perceiving it to be desperate times... but that isn't really smearing in any way, imo. (since it doesn't make me think less of these who get desperate) They've also shown there's some ****s and other questionable individuals between the mages but that's just that, individuals. There's some in every group.

Modifié par tmp7704, 08 avril 2011 - 03:33 .