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[The Angry One]

tmp7704 wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Apparently the Devs are so upset at the pro-mage nature of the majority of their players (at least in DAO) that the are going to great lengths to try to smear mages.  They've already retconned multiple characters to fit the new anti-mage mold.  What makes you think that DA3 is going to be any different?

Uhmm which characters are these retconned people?

Didn't personally see much of smear campaign to speak of in DA2. It's more like they showed that people backed into a corner may reach for desperate measures, perceiving it to be desperate times... but that isn't really smearing in any way, imo. (since it doesn't make me think less of these who get desperate) They've also shown there's some ****s and other questionable individuals between the mages but that's just that, individuals. There's some in every group.

Probably talking about Leliana.
I'm not sure why there's such a problem with the devout Andrastean who says THE MAKER TALKS TO HER not having a great opinion of mages.

[sphinxess]

LobselVith8 wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Given how the Devs (esp DG) are going lately, your former Warden will be the primary villian along with a possessed King Alistair/Queen Anora.  EIther the warden-blood-mage will be raising the dead and creating Ancient Tevinter Mark 2, or he will be the love slave of Morrigan who is doing just that.

All throughout we will be told how stupid we were to side with mages and consider them even remotely like human beings.  Bank on it.

-Polaris

Or we'll be told how fans are siding with mages by default again.

This is over how Leliana has changed..... she does seem pretty hard-core anti-mage now.

[tmp7704]

The Angry One wrote...

Probably talking about Leliana.

That's the one i was guessing (although to be fair it's not like she reveals any opinion about mages in DAO that i can remember?) but "multiple characters" implied there's more than one so i started to wonder who the other ones were supposed to be.

Modifié par tmp7704, 08 avril 2011 - 03:42 .

[Raiil]

I think that if the characters are going to be in any way realistic, they're going to have room to change their opinions.

Look at Cullen. First he's pretty soft on mages- he considers what he does to be a sort of dreaded necessity- then he gets hulk smashed by Uldred and (for very good reason) because extremely nervous about mages. And in DA2, he doesn't soften, but we see bits of the old Cullen alongside the new- not wanting the extreme option to be used unless it absolutely must be.

Every person is capable of changing their mind. I don't see why the characters have to be set in stone from the get-go.

[IanPolaris]

Valentia X wrote...

I think that if the characters are going to be in any way realistic, they're going to have room to change their opinions.

Look at Cullen. First he's pretty soft on mages- he considers what he does to be a sort of dreaded necessity- then he gets hulk smashed by Uldred and (for very good reason) because extremely nervous about mages. And in DA2, he doesn't soften, but we see bits of the old Cullen alongside the new- not wanting the extreme option to be used unless it absolutely must be.

Every person is capable of changing their mind. I don't see why the characters have to be set in stone from the get-go.

There's change and growth and then there's complete retconning.  The Lelianna in DAO chastized Alistair for saying that the Chantr would apply the "sword of mercy" to the penitant bloodmage you capture (Alistair is right btw about how the chantry would react) and even says that all people must have a chance to learn and repend their sins and begs for mercy.

The Lelianna now seems to be, "Muh, ha, ha....Exalted March the Evil mages and let the Maker Sort them out"

That's not change or growth.  That's a different character.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

tmp7704 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Probably talking about Leliana.

That's the one i was guessing (although to be fair it's not like she reveals any opinion about mages in DAO that i can remember?) but "multiple characters" implied there's more than one so i started to wonder who the other ones were supposed to be.

Lelianna in DAO is personally a devout Andrastian, but is also an open heretic (and admits this). Her views about the Maker are not approved by the Chantry in DAO and neither is her view on magic.  She even advocates at one point mercy and a life in the chantry for a captured Malificar.  If that doesn't tell you her DAO view on magic, nothing does.

"Sister Nightingale" in DA2 is a completely different character.

-Polaris

[tmp7704]

IanPolaris wrote...

Lelianna in DAO is personally a devout Andrastian, but is also an open heretic (and admits this). Her views about the Maker are not approved by the Chantry in DAO and neither is her view on magic.

Aren't you drawing a conclusion here that 'since she is a self-professed heretic then she must support the mages' which isn't really portrayed anywhere in the game, as she doesn't exactly specify these views on magic which you say aren't supported? It's quite a stretch with little to base it on. Especially since her "heresy" is basically just seeking attention.

She even advocates at one point mercy and a life in the chantry for a captured Malificar.  If that doesn't tell you her DAO view on magic, nothing does.

All it tells me she is willing to spare a person's life rather than kill them in cold blood, which is in line with her character as documented in the Toolset -- she's supposed to be inclined to do things which are "nice" rather than "right". She's explicitly said there to advocate things like sparing life of a bandit based on this reasoning. This doesn't however mean she supports organized crime and thinks bandits should be allowed to run around unchecked.

edit: and anyway, so who are these other retconned characters?

Modifié par tmp7704, 08 avril 2011 - 04:34 .

[IanPolaris]

Anders is another retcon (yes justified rather clumsily but a retcon). As for Lelianna's attitude toward magic, remember she is BFF or even lover to a mage (often bloodmage) in DAO a lot of the time,and is very interested and supportive of mages (and AGAINST annulment in the Fereldan circle) if you take her there.

Listen to her banter. DAO Lelilanna is a different character than Sister Nightengale.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Cullen is yet another retcon as well. I'll think of more but there was a lot of retconning in DA2.

-Polaris

[tmp7704]

Hmm isn't Cullen retconned to be easier on the mages rather than hard, if anything? The epilogue in DAO where he gets to rule the Ferelden Circle has him do it very harshly because of his own experiences. But in DA2 he actually stands up to Meredith in the end, which isn't exactly what i expected of him precisely because of what he's been through.

[Raiil]

Anders isn't a retcon though. I won't debate whether his character transformation was well-written or not, but they didn't just suddenly make him tie with Fenris in the National Kirkwall Brood Wars. He undergoes a fundamental change. Leliana yes, I see her as being a potential retcon (with judgement set aside for a 'we'll see' situation).

Cullen a retcon? Not really. Gaider states that epilogues are treated as hearsay (this is even addressed in certain situations with the Nathaniel quest) and so the last thing we know about Cullen for sure is that he's really paranoid about mages. In DA2, he's still paranoid about mages- just not to the level that Meredith is.

[Mnemnosyne]

I feel like Cullen really had a strong sense of character progression. In DA:O we get the sense that he's a genuinely good person who goes batty after his experiences. Then in DA2 he sees that same progression of going batty in Meredith, and he doesn't like it, winding up questioning her, and himself, winding up a somewhat more reasonable and better person for it.

Not that he winds up being a moderate person or anywhere near on the side of the mages, which makes perfect sense, but the conversation where the mages surrender to you if you side with Meredith, and Meredith wants to execute them and asks if Cullen is willing to be responsible for them is a point where his character progression really shines through to me in that it seems like he understands now that mages are still people, even as dangerous as they are.

At no point do I get a sense that he's suddenly flipped his opinion for no reason - his progression of opinions all the way from when we first meet him in the tower in DA:O to the end of DA2 is believable to me, and I get the sense he will be a good templar after the events of DA2 - strict, but as devoted to protecting innocent mages as he is to bringing down the bad ones.

[LobselVith8]

Valentia X wrote...

Anders isn't a retcon though. I won't debate whether his character transformation was well-written or not, but they didn't just suddenly make him tie with Fenris in the National Kirkwall Brood Wars. He undergoes a fundamental change.

I thought people were referring to the recton of him ending up in Kirkwall instead of becoming the leader of a new generation of mages in Amaranthine.

Valentia X wrote...

Cullen a retcon? Not really. Gaider states that epilogues are treated as hearsay (this is even addressed in certain situations with the Nathaniel quest) and so the last thing we know about Cullen for sure is that he's really paranoid about mages. In DA2, he's still paranoid about mages- just not to the level that Meredith is.

Having an elaborate Epilogue that explains how Greagoir died as a brother and Cullen ended up becoming the new Knight-Commander who ruled the Circle in fear is hardly just "heresay." They changed his history like they changed the fate of Anders and Justice for DA2.

[Wulfram]

# Leliana: It must be a wonderful thing, to be able to weave spells.
# Wynne: Wonderful? To you, perhaps. Most do not feel the same way
# Leliana: Oh, what do they know? They are just jealous. The Maker gives you magic; you must use it.

[erilben]

tmp7704 wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Lelianna in DAO is personally a devout Andrastian, but is also an open heretic (and admits this). Her views about the Maker are not approved by the Chantry in DAO and neither is her view on magic.

Aren't you drawing a conclusion here that 'since she is a self-professed heretic then she must support the mages' which isn't really portrayed anywhere in the game, as she doesn't exactly specify these views on magic which you say aren't supported? It's quite a stretch with little to base it on. Especially since her "heresy" is basically just seeking attention.

Leliana tells Wynne that she wishes she could do magic. Wynne says most do not think think the same. Which then Leliana says those people don't know what they are talking about, that they are just jealous and that mages should use their maker given gitfs. I don't think the Chantry approves of this view of magic.

[Rifneno]

Valentia X wrote...

Cullen a retcon? Not really. Gaider states that epilogues are treated as hearsay (this is even addressed in certain situations with the Nathaniel quest) and so the last thing we know about Cullen for sure is that he's really paranoid about mages. In DA2, he's still paranoid about mages- just not to the level that Meredith is.

No.  I simply refuse to accept that as an answer.  Epilogues have never been "just rumors" before.  That was the entire reason Bioware told us we'd never get BG3.  They weren't intended to be rumors when written for DAO either because if they were, then the epilogue wouldn't specifically mention that this or that is a rumor (like Morrigan in the empress' court).  Cullen is a retcon, pure and simple.  A writer can change how anything works in their world, not how logic works in the real world.  Telling us "naw, the epilogue was just rumors" is little different than telling us "naw, the Warden never went into the Deep Roads.  He found Branka passed out in Dust Town."

[Raiil]

Rifneno wrote...

Valentia X wrote...

Cullen a retcon? Not really. Gaider states that epilogues are treated as hearsay (this is even addressed in certain situations with the Nathaniel quest) and so the last thing we know about Cullen for sure is that he's really paranoid about mages. In DA2, he's still paranoid about mages- just not to the level that Meredith is.

No.  I simply refuse to accept that as an answer.  Epilogues have never been "just rumors" before.  That was the entire reason Bioware told us we'd never get BG3.  They weren't intended to be rumors when written for DAO either because if they were, then the epilogue wouldn't specifically mention that this or that is a rumor (like Morrigan in the empress' court).  Cullen is a retcon, pure and simple.  A writer can change how anything works in their world, not how logic works in the real world.  Telling us "naw, the epilogue was just rumors" is little different than telling us "naw, the Warden never went into the Deep Roads.  He found Branka passed out in Dust Town."

Um... okay? What do you want me to do, pick a fight with the devs on this? Their words, not mine, and they shape universe; we just get to play with it.


And it is a difference between Branka drunk in Dust Town and the epilogues- we interact with Branka, potentially end her life, etc. The other is basically a few words on what might- yes might, because the people who created the game have said so, it's not my opinion- be true, and might not be true, because they're hearsay. We're not present for Cullen's elevation to knight-commander, it's not part of the game we play. It's a few words tacked on to the end that's basically the equivalent of a rumour going around the tavern.

Modifié par Valentia X, 08 avril 2011 - 02:24 .

[Rifneno]

Valentia X wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Valentia X wrote...

Cullen a retcon? Not really. Gaider states that epilogues are treated as hearsay (this is even addressed in certain situations with the Nathaniel quest) and so the last thing we know about Cullen for sure is that he's really paranoid about mages. In DA2, he's still paranoid about mages- just not to the level that Meredith is.

No.  I simply refuse to accept that as an answer.  Epilogues have never been "just rumors" before.  That was the entire reason Bioware told us we'd never get BG3.  They weren't intended to be rumors when written for DAO either because if they were, then the epilogue wouldn't specifically mention that this or that is a rumor (like Morrigan in the empress' court).  Cullen is a retcon, pure and simple.  A writer can change how anything works in their world, not how logic works in the real world.  Telling us "naw, the epilogue was just rumors" is little different than telling us "naw, the Warden never went into the Deep Roads.  He found Branka passed out in Dust Town."

Um... okay? What do you want me to do, pick a fight with the devs on this? Their words, not mine, and they shape universe; we just get to play with it.


And it is a difference between Branka drunk in Dust Town and the epilogues- we interact with Branka, potentially end her life, etc. The other is basically a few words on what might- yes might, because the people who created the game have said so, it's not my opinion- be true, and might not be true, because they're hearsay. We're not present for Cullen's elevation to knight-commander, it's not part of the game we play. It's a few words tacked on to the end that's basically the equivalent of a rumour going around the tavern.

If epilogue slides are suddenly editable years later, why not any other part of the story?  Pretty sure Duncan does some voice-overs early on.  So let's use that to claim DAO was just Duncan's telling.  And since it's being told by someone, it's fallible.

I kind of want to say it's a slippy slope when you take "no, we decided that was just a rumor" as a valid reasoning.  But it's not.  It's a cliff.  I have no problem with them shaping their universe as they want, I just have a problem with not being honest and admitting to us when a retcon occurs.

[Raiil]

Rifneno wrote...

Valentia X wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Valentia X wrote...

Cullen a retcon? Not really. Gaider states that epilogues are treated as hearsay (this is even addressed in certain situations with the Nathaniel quest) and so the last thing we know about Cullen for sure is that he's really paranoid about mages. In DA2, he's still paranoid about mages- just not to the level that Meredith is.

No.  I simply refuse to accept that as an answer.  Epilogues have never been "just rumors" before.  That was the entire reason Bioware told us we'd never get BG3.  They weren't intended to be rumors when written for DAO either because if they were, then the epilogue wouldn't specifically mention that this or that is a rumor (like Morrigan in the empress' court).  Cullen is a retcon, pure and simple.  A writer can change how anything works in their world, not how logic works in the real world.  Telling us "naw, the epilogue was just rumors" is little different than telling us "naw, the Warden never went into the Deep Roads.  He found Branka passed out in Dust Town."

Um... okay? What do you want me to do, pick a fight with the devs on this? Their words, not mine, and they shape universe; we just get to play with it.


And it is a difference between Branka drunk in Dust Town and the epilogues- we interact with Branka, potentially end her life, etc. The other is basically a few words on what might- yes might, because the people who created the game have said so, it's not my opinion- be true, and might not be true, because they're hearsay. We're not present for Cullen's elevation to knight-commander, it's not part of the game we play. It's a few words tacked on to the end that's basically the equivalent of a rumour going around the tavern.

If epilogue slides are suddenly editable years later, why not any other part of the story?  Pretty sure Duncan does some voice-overs early on.  So let's use that to claim DAO was just Duncan's telling.  And since it's being told by someone, it's fallible.

I kind of want to say it's a slippy slope when you take "no, we decided that was just a rumor" as a valid reasoning.  But it's not.  It's a cliff.  I have no problem with them shaping their universe as they want, I just have a problem with not being honest and admitting to us when a retcon occurs.

*shrugs* If that's how you feel, fine. But I don't think trying to equate a few words dashed onto the end with fundamentally changing an aspect of the in-game experience makes a lot of sense, either. Or rather: I can see Leliana being alive as a retcon if you lopped off her head. I don't see stating that the epilogues are hearsay- it's even shown in game how that can work- is on the same level as a retcon.

[tmp7704]

erilben wrote...

Leliana tells Wynne that she wishes she could do magic. Wynne says most do not think think the same. Which then Leliana says those people don't know what they are talking about, that they are just jealous and that mages should use their maker given gitfs. I don't think the Chantry approves of this view of magic.

"Magic should serve man, not rule over him".

Serving implies actual use, so i think it doesn't conflict with view of the Chantry. If the Chantry didn't approve use of magic then they have solution to it at hand -- but instead they reject such proposal in DA2.

Modifié par tmp7704, 08 avril 2011 - 03:14 .

[errant_knight]

It's proven that the episode slides are heresay, although sometimes they're true--like the disappearing warden thing that pissed everyone off after Awakening. So one might be proof, it might be not. I personally think that's pretty lame. It provides a way of having your actions shape events and then ignoring them at will. Still, I don't really mind. I'm quite glad that particular slide turned out not to be true. Cullen was a decent guy before the events of the tower and I'm glad to see that he wasn't warped by the trauma for his whole life. On the other hand, if this all ends badly for mages, it could still be true.

Modifié par errant_knight, 08 avril 2011 - 03:25 .

[IanPolaris]

tmp7704 wrote...

erilben wrote...

Leliana tells Wynne that she wishes she could do magic. Wynne says most do not think think the same. Which then Leliana says those people don't know what they are talking about, that they are just jealous and that mages should use their maker given gitfs. I don't think the Chantry approves of this view of magic.

"Magic should serve man, not rule over him".

Serving implies actual use, so i think it doesn't conflict with view of the Chantry. If the Chantry didn't approve use of magic then they have solution to it at hand -- but instead they reject such proposal in DA2.

If you talk with Cullen, they don't reject it out of hand.  The idea of mass-lobomizing mages has a lot of quiet support actually.  Also the Chantry consistantly calls magic a curse and "Sister Nightengale" uses "magic" like it's a curse as well while DAO Lelianna thought it was a wonderful gift.  They are different characters and thus it's an obvious (and bad) retcon done IMO to further smear mages in the game.

-Polaris

[tmp7704]

IanPolaris wrote...

If you talk with Cullen, they don't reject it out of hand.  The idea of mass-lobomizing mages has a lot of quiet support actually.

And quite a few mages practice magic to ill effects. Do you really want to use this angle in argument and use stance of extremists as that of the majority, especially when the "lot of quiet support" is your own conjecture that'd be hard to back up with what the game actually shows?

Ultimately the view of the Chantry is determined by the Divine, and she's against it.

Also the Chantry consistantly calls magic a curse and "Sister Nightengale" uses "magic" like it's a curse as well while DAO Lelianna thought it was a wonderful gift.  They are different characters and thus it's an obvious (and bad) retcon done IMO to further smear mages in the game.

I just ran a search through the DLC dialog. The literally only instance where the word "magic" is used is

{6181828}
"The whole world is watching Kirkwall. If it falls to magic, none of us are safe."

which is correct in the actual context -- that is, Kirkwall falling to magic could be easily seen as beginning of new Tevinter Imperium.

Similarly, about the only instance when Leliana refers to mages is when she talks specifically about Resolutionists. Who are, if you remember, determined to subject the world population to mass magic attacks Anders-style, to make point how the Circles don't actually provide any safety for said population. I'd say the disdain is well warranted in this situation, and shouldn't be automatically expanded to all mages.

Modifié par tmp7704, 08 avril 2011 - 05:39 .

[LobselVith8]

sphinxess wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Or we'll be told how fans are siding with mages by default again.

This is over how Leliana has changed..... she does seem pretty hard-core anti-mage now.

I think that's why, though. In their attempt to create "balance" because they think fans chose mages almost by default, they turned a character who can have a relationship with a mage, advocate for the freedom of two different blood mages, and talk up Wynne's use of magic, and now have her dismissing the mage movement for independence as a thrall of the Divine.

[Nemotenetur]

"Each Circle of Magi is home to various fraternities of enchanters that serve as social outlets for mages and ways for those of like mind to promote their philosophies on magic. The most marginal of these were always the Libertarians, who believed mages must take a more active role in the politics of Thedas. While publicly only advocating greater power for the Circles, many Libertarians secretly wished to split completely from the Chantry, as mages did in Tevinter. The Chantry allowed the group to continue in order to note potential troublemakers.

The Resolutionists changed all that. Splitting from the main Libertarian fraternity, the Resolutionists are open apostates who support freedom for mages at all costs. They engaged in acts of terror and sabotage against the Chantry throughout Thedas, and many are connected to Kirkwall's mage underground. They have declared that unless mages are freed to rule themselves, they will show every person in Thedas how little protection the Circle of Magi actually offers."

They sound like a lovely bunch. I really don't see why Leliana wouldn't support them... Truly she has gone hardcore anti-mage indeed.