400 réponses à ce sujet

[IanPolaris]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Hmmm Leliana is becoming much more interesting than I thought she was.
I am not sure Lelimancers would react well though.

EDIT: and didnt' Mr. Gaider say he didn't like "gotcha" moments? Or was that a "gotcha" moment?

I don't know about the intent but it was sure a "gotcha" moment for me (assuming that Lelianna was playing us all along and this isn't anauthorial ass-pull).  I'll never view Lelianna the same way again (her chances in of being left in Lothering have just done up dramatically).

-Polaris

[KnightofPhoenix]

IanPolaris wrote...

If you have a very high Cunning and talk to the Guardian about Andraste herself (turns out he was an original disciple), the first Andrastians seem very cool and very resonable.

So just how did they birth something like the Chantry?

-Polaris

They didn't. Emperor Drakon of Orlais did.

[IanPolaris]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

If you have a very high Cunning and talk to the Guardian about Andraste herself (turns out he was an original disciple), the first Andrastians seem very cool and very resonable.

So just how did they birth something like the Chantry?

-Polaris

They didn't. Emperor Drakon of Orlais did.

My Point...missing it.  The Chantry does try to claim that they and their interpretation of the Chant of Light reflects Andraste and her disciples.

It doesn't.

-Polaris

[EmperorSahlertz]

Somebody wrote...

TobiTobsen wrote...

nedpepper wrote...

Lelliana playing the Warden for a fool would be golden. She IS a bard. She lies for a living. And was anyone really buying that whole, "The Maker compels me?"

With all this mage/templar and war with Orlais/Ferelden, not to mention the Tevinter Imperium probably seeing this as a way to regain their empire, AND the qunari threatening vengeance....wow. DA 3, can't wait.

Oh, and let's not forget the darkspawn. They're up to SOMETHING and that dwarven thaig with the idol just sitting there seemed...convienent...

We should have listened to the Guardian of Andraste. He knew all along that Leliana was bull****ting us. Or at least that her vision was fake.

Your right, he tells us how she fabricated the whole thing to get attention. 

He also tells us she was in the Chantry for the same reason as Leli herself do. So she wasn't lying about that.

[_Somebody]

IanPolaris wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

If you have a very high Cunning and talk to the Guardian about Andraste herself (turns out he was an original disciple), the first Andrastians seem very cool and very resonable.

So just how did they birth something like the Chantry?

-Polaris

They didn't. Emperor Drakon of Orlais did.

My Point...missing it.  The Chantry does try to claim that they and their interpretation of the Chant of Light reflects Andraste and her disciples.

It doesn't.

-Polaris

Because everyone interprets it differently. Just look at Tevinter.

[KnightofPhoenix]

IanPolaris wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
They didn't. Emperor Drakon of Orlais did.

My Point...missing it.  The Chantry does try to claim that they and their interpretation of the Chant of Light reflects Andraste and her disciples.

It doesn't.

-Polaris

I took "birth" to mean actually establish the organization. Just wanted to clarify.

[_Somebody]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Somebody wrote...

TobiTobsen wrote...

nedpepper wrote...

Lelliana playing the Warden for a fool would be golden. She IS a bard. She lies for a living. And was anyone really buying that whole, "The Maker compels me?"

With all this mage/templar and war with Orlais/Ferelden, not to mention the Tevinter Imperium probably seeing this as a way to regain their empire, AND the qunari threatening vengeance....wow. DA 3, can't wait.

Oh, and let's not forget the darkspawn. They're up to SOMETHING and that dwarven thaig with the idol just sitting there seemed...convienent...

We should have listened to the Guardian of Andraste. He knew all along that Leliana was bull****ting us. Or at least that her vision was fake.

Your right, he tells us how she fabricated the whole thing to get attention. 

He also tells us she was in the Chantry for the same reason as Leli herself do. So she wasn't lying about that.

But he claims her "vision" was made up.

[IanPolaris]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Somebody wrote...

TobiTobsen wrote...

nedpepper wrote...

Lelliana playing the Warden for a fool would be golden. She IS a bard. She lies for a living. And was anyone really buying that whole, "The Maker compels me?"

With all this mage/templar and war with Orlais/Ferelden, not to mention the Tevinter Imperium probably seeing this as a way to regain their empire, AND the qunari threatening vengeance....wow. DA 3, can't wait.

Oh, and let's not forget the darkspawn. They're up to SOMETHING and that dwarven thaig with the idol just sitting there seemed...convienent...

We should have listened to the Guardian of Andraste. He knew all along that Leliana was bull****ting us. Or at least that her vision was fake.

Your right, he tells us how she fabricated the whole thing to get attention. 

He also tells us she was in the Chantry for the same reason as Leli herself do. So she wasn't lying about that.

Fair enough and she (apparently) wasn't lying about her name.  I'm quickly running out of things she doesn' lie about.  Really starting to dislike the 'new" Lelianna.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Honesty, whatever you think of Tevinter (and I personally regard them as a small step above pond-scum), I have to say that their interpretation of the Chant seems not only most like the original one, but the most reasonable as well. "Magic should serve man not rule over him" does not say that all mages should be locked away and with the key eaten and it does not say that mages should never hold political power.

That's a radical (mis) interpretation.

-Polaris

[TobiTobsen]

Great... more people start to have doubts about the poor Bard. Mission accomplished. I have earned my right to go to bed.

Maybe you notice even more things I haven't thought about yet... oooor... maybe we're just seeing stuff that isn't really there. Only time will show.

[Herr Uhl]

IanPolaris wrote...

Honesty, whatever you think of Tevinter (and I personally regard them as a small step above pond-scum), I have to say that their interpretation of the Chant seems not only most like the original one, but the most reasonable as well. "Magic should serve man not rule over him" does not say that all mages should be locked away and with the key eaten and it does not say that mages should never hold political power.

That's a radical (mis) interpretation.

-Polaris

Considering that she was fighting a magocracy, I can see how they'd get the "not hold political power".

[Raiil]

Herr Uhl wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Honesty, whatever you think of Tevinter (and I personally regard them as a small step above pond-scum), I have to say that their interpretation of the Chant seems not only most like the original one, but the most reasonable as well. "Magic should serve man not rule over him" does not say that all mages should be locked away and with the key eaten and it does not say that mages should never hold political power.

That's a radical (mis) interpretation.

-Polaris

Considering that she was fighting a magocracy, I can see how they'd get the "not hold political power".

I suppose that's where context comes in. Was she fighting against a magocracy, or was she fighting against an inherently abusive system that happened to be controlled by mages? We've little knowledge on what Andraste thought of ho-hum, every day magic. And if Tevinter was then like it is now, very few mages hold any real power in Tevinter- it's the few lording over the many.  Andraste could have been leading the battle against those few really corrupt magisters, but when you fight a leader, you fight their country- even if that country has no real interest in getting involved.


Which would be a sort of awesome set up- the lower caste Tevinter mages rising up against their blood magic wielding overlords and setting up a truly free society.

[AshenEndymion]

Valentia X wrote...

Which would be a sort of awesome set up- the lower caste Tevinter mages rising up against their blood magic wielding overlords and setting up a truly free society.

For mages.

Somehow I doubt the lower caste of Tevinter mages really cared about equality or freedom for the "normal" people in Tevinter(or anywhere else)....

[Raiil]

AshenEndemion wrote...

Valentia X wrote...

Which would be a sort of awesome set up- the lower caste Tevinter mages rising up against their blood magic wielding overlords and setting up a truly free society.

For mages.

Somehow I doubt the lower caste of Tevinter mages really cared about equality or freedom for the "normal" people in Tevinter(or anywhere else)....

* shrugs * Maybe, maybe not. The point is, Tevinter is not happy fun land for anyone who can cast a simple fire spell; only for those at the top of the heap. Who knows? Maybe they'll just have a chill country for anyone who isn't a blood spilling douche.

[Kenshen]

thurmanator692 wrote...

aryon69 wrote...

thurmanator692 wrote...

Is Orlais still planning the invasion if Loghain is still kicking? I wouldn't if I were them. You don't **** around with the Hero of River Dane

 That would go agianst the GW motto of not getting involved in policital stuff.  They only deal with darkspawn.  I bet that would be really tough for Loghain to accept.

Darkspawn and folks that openly attack them. What do you think they would do if the Divine in Orlais declared an exalted march against the Grey Wardens for Anders' involvement in the mage rebellion?

No way to know for sure but Anders wasn't acting on the GW's behalf and just because he is a GW doesn't mean that the whole group needs to share the blame.  Now if it does become a world war I find it hard to believe they will be able to stay out of it but I will admit that I don't know enough about each group represented ingame to know how each will react to the growing tension.

[TJPags]

I don't think I ever got any line in my game from Leli about "what is happening in Ferelden".

I know that, since I don't have any King Alistair, I never heard anything about mages being harbored from the Circle.

[Rifneno]

IanPolaris wrote...

Fair enough and she (apparently) wasn't lying about her name.  I'm quickly running out of things she doesn' lie about.  Really starting to dislike the 'new" Lelianna.

-Polaris

Agreed.  They need to stop completely changing pre-existing characters when a new character serves the same purpose just as well.  First Anders and Justice declare jihad, now Leliana was lying the whole time?

And for the growing "maybe Leliana is a title" crowd (which I honestly thought was just a joke at first): if this wasn't the same one from DAO, there wouldn't be a scene where Isabela recognizes her and cracks a joke if the Warden threesomed them in DAO.

[Raiil]

Rifneno wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Fair enough and she (apparently) wasn't lying about her name.  I'm quickly running out of things she doesn' lie about.  Really starting to dislike the 'new" Lelianna.

-Polaris

Agreed.  They need to stop completely changing pre-existing characters when a new character serves the same purpose just as well.  First Anders and Justice declare jihad, now Leliana was lying the whole time?

And for the growing "maybe Leliana is a title" crowd (which I honestly thought was just a joke at first): if this wasn't the same one from DAO, there wouldn't be a scene where Isabela recognizes her and cracks a joke if the Warden threesomed them in DAO.

It looks more like a set-up from the beginning. Leliana's Seeker Circle necklace is from DA:O and we meet Revered Mother Dorethea (now the Divine) in Leliana's Song. That doesn't seem much like changing a character to 'oh, now I see it!'.

[Rifneno]

Valentia X wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Fair enough and she (apparently) wasn't lying about her name.  I'm quickly running out of things she doesn' lie about.  Really starting to dislike the 'new" Lelianna.

-Polaris

Agreed.  They need to stop completely changing pre-existing characters when a new character serves the same purpose just as well.  First Anders and Justice declare jihad, now Leliana was lying the whole time?

And for the growing "maybe Leliana is a title" crowd (which I honestly thought was just a joke at first): if this wasn't the same one from DAO, there wouldn't be a scene where Isabela recognizes her and cracks a joke if the Warden threesomed them in DAO.

It looks more like a set-up from the beginning. Leliana's Seeker Circle necklace is from DA:O and we meet Revered Mother Dorethea (now the Divine) in Leliana's Song. That doesn't seem much like changing a character to 'oh, now I see it!'.

Does it?  I was under the impression that she became a seeker because Dorethea remembered her significant talent when she was promoted to Divine.  If that's the case, then she wasn't a seeker in DAO.  And if there's another reason she's a seeker at that point, then I'm not so sure how it meshes with her backstory.  Marjolaine was keeping very close tabs on her.  Either when she was chosen for the seekers they'd have noticed Marjo's spys and had her eliminated, or they didn't notice and she would've known and said something about it in Denerim.

So no, I don't believe this was pre-planned.  Even if it was, it still amounts to the same thing.

[AshenEndymion]

Rifneno wrote...

Valentia X wrote...

It looks more like a set-up from the beginning. Leliana's Seeker Circle necklace is from DA:O and we meet Revered Mother Dorethea (now the Divine) in Leliana's Song. That doesn't seem much like changing a character to 'oh, now I see it!'.

Does it?  I was under the impression that she became a seeker because Dorethea remembered her significant talent when she was promoted to Divine.  If that's the case, then she wasn't a seeker in DAO.  And if there's another reason she's a seeker at that point, then I'm not so sure how it meshes with her backstory.  Marjolaine was keeping very close tabs on her.  Either when she was chosen for the seekers they'd have noticed Marjo's spys and had her eliminated, or they didn't notice and she would've known and said something about it in Denerim.

So no, I don't believe this was pre-planned.  Even if it was, it still amounts to the same thing.

What does Seeker training entail?  It's not like Leliana would need an awful lot, as she's already a Bard.  If her training never actually takes place outside of a Chantry, how would Marjolaine know anything about Leliana being anything other than a sister?  After her training she could be given her first assignment (go to Lothering as a Sister, see if any Grey Wardens survived, get close to them, and determine the truth to Logain's claims).

If Leliana is a Seeker, I see her being one from the beginning of Origins.  The induction into the Seekers, and immediate promotion to a high ranking member of the Seekers, immediately after Dorthea becomes Divine seems too convenient for me.  Although, that could give more reasons as to why Dorthea is hated as a Divine...

[Urazz]

IanPolaris wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Since the boon can only be asked with 1/6 wardens, out of 4 or 5 choices, I doubt what's happening is that important.

Unless Ferelden opted to free its Circle regardless.

Essentially it has.  I've played with both the boon and without it, and while a couple of lines of dialog shift slightly, what King Alistair/Queen Anora has done in Fereldan essentially has not.  Essentially in Fereldan the crown has removed (by force) Chantry oversight over mages and make it a royal perogative.  He (She) doesn't (yet) have the raw military power to kick out the Templars in the Tower, but outside the tower, the Chantry/Templar have no legal authority anymore to hunt/regulate mages, and Fereldan is openly accepting and protecting apostates from elsewhere.

As I see it, Fereldan is one small step away from a Chuch of England type schism with the main Chantry especially given the resentment against Orlais (again my take on what is said but what I say above is what you are told).

-Polaris

Exactly what I'm thinking.  Fereldan is pretty much getting set up to become seperate from the Chantry regardless of who is ruler and if the mage boon is asked for.  With the mage/templar war happening, leaders of various nations that don't care about the Chantry will probably use the opportunity to break away or greatly weaken the Chantry's power in their country I think.  The Chantry won't be able to really do much about it I think since most nations will probably be using their armies to try to play peacekeeper so the mages and templars don't go wild in their country.

The only country I can think of that would heed a call for an Exalted March on Fereldan would be Orlais and even then it would only be because some Orlesian nobility want to reconquer Fereldan and the Divine's support would probably make it so Celene wouldn't be able to stop it.  Even if that did happen, would Orlais be able to conquer Fereldan like it did before?  I doubt it or at the very least they would win the war but it would be costly for their army and they wouldn't be able to keep control of Fereldan for long like they did in their first occupation.

[errant_knight]

Wait a sec. King Alistair says straight out that he doesn't control the circle, the chantry does--that the only mages he can help are those outside the Chantry, and there aren't many of those. That means he was already keeping templars from going after apostates as early as the beginning or act 3, but whatever happened at the circle happened after Anders started the war. The circle mages could have rebelled, demanding the same freedom as apostates. Or maybe Gregoire saw the writing on the wall and turned control over to Irving before a rebellion could occur. Anyway, something happened there between the time we meet Alistair and the epilogue (such as it was.)

Modifié par errant_knight, 07 avril 2011 - 12:40 .

[ddv.rsa]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

thurmanator692 wrote...

They also have a Metric ****ton of templars, i don't have very high hopes for a rebellious Orlesian Circle. and if its the same First Enchanter from The Calling, I don't see them being too excited for revolution

The Templars who have, again, revolted.

Yeah they rebelled. To kill mages. I think that works out fine for Orlais in this case.

I tend to agree, but we aren't actually told why. Some people have even suggested that the Templars quit because they couldn't live with the blood on their hands any longer. Who knows?

[Morroian]

IanPolaris wrote...

My Point...missing it.  The Chantry does try to claim that they and their interpretation of the Chant of Light reflects Andraste and her disciples.

It doesn't.
-Polaris

Pretty much how christianity hasn't actually reflected the teachings of Christ for most of its history.

[errant_knight]

Let's keep real religion out of this. Someone always loses an eye.