400 réponses à ce sujet

[Urazz]

errant_knight wrote...

Wait a sec. King Alistair says straight out that he doesn't control the circle, the chantry does--that the only mages he can help are those outside the Chantry, and there aren't many of those. That means he was already keeping templars from going after apostates as early as the beginning or act 3, but whatever happened at the circle happened after Anders started the war. The circle mages could have rebelled, demanding the same freedom as apostates. Or maybe Gregoire saw the writing on the wall and turned control over to Irving before a rebellion could occur. Anyway, something happened there between the time we meet Alistair and the epilogue (such as it was.)

Yeah, I'm wondering if the rebellion of the mages and templars in Fereldan is any different than the other countries.  I.E. the mages are being more peaceful with their rebellion and the templars rebelling away from the Chantry's control and going under the King's/Queen's.

[IanPolaris]

Urazz wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

Wait a sec. King Alistair says straight out that he doesn't control the circle, the chantry does--that the only mages he can help are those outside the Chantry, and there aren't many of those. That means he was already keeping templars from going after apostates as early as the beginning or act 3, but whatever happened at the circle happened after Anders started the war. The circle mages could have rebelled, demanding the same freedom as apostates. Or maybe Gregoire saw the writing on the wall and turned control over to Irving before a rebellion could occur. Anyway, something happened there between the time we meet Alistair and the epilogue (such as it was.)

Yeah, I'm wondering if the rebellion of the mages and templars in Fereldan is any different than the other countries.  I.E. the mages are being more peaceful with their rebellion and the templars rebelling away from the Chantry's control and going under the King's/Queen's.

Given that Alistair himself is an ex-templar and everyone knows it (or almost equivalently given that Queen Anora is the daughter of Gen Loghain), I can easily see KC Gregoire hearing about Kirkwall, seeing the handwriting on the wall, and then pleading with the Crown that he isn't Meridith and his Templars are important in regulating magic and keeping the peace.  I can see Irving (either as first enchanter or recently retired) even agreeing with that....and I could even see the Hero of Fereldan saying that KC Gregoire should be respected.

I think Gregoire would offer to turn his Templars over to a Crown and subject to Crown oversight (or equivalently a Chantry with the Crown rather tha Divine as the head of the church).

Given all that, I don' think Orlais would have a snowball's chance at reconquering Fereldan.  Not with a mage-templar supported royal army and especially not if King Bhelen decides to help his ally (and in fact I could easily see King Bhelen being picked to negotiate a truce/amistice on both sides).

-Polaris

[errant_knight]

Yeah, I think Ferelden could have quite a different situation given that both the templars and the mages might get along very well with the king, and both Gregoire and Irving are reasonable men. And a whole slew of the blood mages and more radical thinkers got wiped out along with Uldred, so more moderate views might prevail as long as Alistair, Gregoire, and Irving can find a way to take progressive action. The templars don't behave like the ones in Kirkwall and the mages stepped up when it was time to fight the blight. Both are going to have more respect from the polulace than they do in Kirkwall, as well.

Modifié par errant_knight, 07 avril 2011 - 01:26 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Gregoir was not enthusiastic at all about the idea of an autonomous new Circle. But he's certainly no Meredith. I can see him being reasonable and changing his mind if properly convinced.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 07 avril 2011 - 01:25 .

[errant_knight]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Gregoir was not enthusiastic at all about the idea of an autonomous new Circle. But he's certainly no Meredith. I can see him being reasonable and changing his mind if properly convinced.

He gave Cullen a verbal backhand about when he was panicking about the mages. He doesn't have Meredith's instinctive distrust. And he works well with Irving. They have a rivalry, but there's mutual respect there. I think Gregoire would go with whatever prevented a bloodbath and still kept some kind of oversight, if such a solution could be found.

Modifié par errant_knight, 07 avril 2011 - 01:29 .

[IanPolaris]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Gregoir was not enthusiastic at all about the idea of an autonomous new Circle. But he's certainly no Meredith. I can see him being reasonable and changing his mind if properly convinced.

Indeed and given Meridith's terrible example and the fact his own circle would be looking to go into outright revolt along with the other (surviving 12), I can easily see Gregoire pulling Irving (or his sucessor) aside and saying, "We don't have to be enemies and it doesn't have to be that way.  Let's talk to the king (queen)."

Given that the King (Queen) already tried to free the circle, I think KC Gregoire would see this as his best chance to protect his own order and at least retain SOME ability to regulate magic.

-Polaris

[KnightofPhoenix]

errant_knight wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Gregoir was not enthusiastic at all about the idea of an autonomous new Circle. But he's certainly no Meredith. I can see him being reasonable and changing his mind if properly convinced.

He gave Cullen a verbal backhand about when he was panicking about the mages. He doesn't have Meredith's instinctive distrust. And he works well with Irving. They have a rivalry, but there's mutual respect there. I think Gregoire would go with whatever prevented a bloodbath and still kept some kind of oversight, if such a solution could be found.

Agreed. At the end of the day, I think Gregoir wants to prevent as much deaths as possible, vis a vis both Templars and Mages. He might reluncantly accept it at first, but if compromise to the crown might avoid that bloodshed, I can see him do it. Especially since both Alistair and Anora can be sympathetic / diplomatic.

And I remember when Origins first came out that mostly everyone agreed that Gregoir and Irving had the hots for each other (skirt wearers and all)

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 07 avril 2011 - 01:34 .

[Raiil]

lol, there's a part of me that honestly sees Irving and Gregoir sitting down over a cuppa and calmly discussing the situation, then coming to the conclusion that in order to prevent a massacre, the circle would be disbanded inasmuch that the mages would gain personal freedom, but the templars (at Irving's/other mages requests) stick around so they don't end up with Uldred: The Remix.


And then when the Chantry rep comes to complain, Gregoir sticks his head out the window and tells her to go soak her head. In the politest terms possible.

[errant_knight]

Lol! Yeah, that all pretty much sums it up.

[Skwervin]

One one of my playthroughs (a mage) I chose to ask for the freedom of the mages as my boon for killing the archdemon which was accepted. Also when I redid the playthrough (with me dying and Alistair madly in love with me ) he ALSO gave the mages freedom from the Chantry.... and a new tower named after me (buffs nails on her dress).

Which begs the question - why does Anders has his knickers in such a twist? Why not live happy and a free mage in Ferelden?

[Raiil]

Skwervin wrote...

One one of my playthroughs (a mage) I chose to ask for the freedom of the mages as my boon for killing the archdemon which was accepted. Also when I redid the playthrough (with me dying and Alistair madly in love with me ) he ALSO gave the mages freedom from the Chantry.... and a new tower named after me (buffs nails on her dress).

Which begs the question - why does Anders has his knickers in such a twist? Why not live happy and a free mage in Ferelden?

His name is Justice, and he is pissed.


There's a part of me that wonders how long Anders actually spent in the Ferelden Circle. If he's originally from the Anderfels, I can see him having been bounced from a few different circles for being a troublemaker.


There's also a part of me that questions the idea that the Ferelden circle would put him in solitary for, what a year? Not saying it's not possible, it just doesn't seem to go with how I saw the circle. But that is just my opinion.

[errant_knight]

Skwervin wrote...

One one of my playthroughs (a mage) I chose to ask for the freedom of the mages as my boon for killing the archdemon which was accepted. Also when I redid the playthrough (with me dying and Alistair madly in love with me ) he ALSO gave the mages freedom from the Chantry.... and a new tower named after me (buffs nails on her dress).

Which begs the question - why does Anders has his knickers in such a twist? Why not live happy and a free mage in Ferelden?

Because the Chantry refused to free the mages. Hence the issue with Meredith and Alistair in DA2. The circle is still under the control of the Chantry at that point, although Alistair has apparently put apostates under his protection.

And yeah, Anders is seeing things through a demon--and he wants all mages to be free no matter what the cost.

Regarding the templars, if they were to start answering to the crown in Ferelden rather than the Chantry, I think one of the things that would happen is that Alistair would request (in a not really a request kind of way) that they stop giving new templar recuits lyrium, and that if possible those who can be weened off it are.

The only problem with this scenario is it works too well and makes too much sense. This is Dragon Age, so there has to be a giant honkin' fly in the ointment.

Modifié par errant_knight, 07 avril 2011 - 01:54 .

[PantheraOnca]

errant_knight wrote...

Because the Chantry refused to free the mages. Hence the issue with Meredith and Alistair in DA2. The circle is still under the control of the Chantry at that point, although Alistair has apparently put apostates under his protection.

And yeah, Anders is seeing things through a demon--and he wants all mages to be free no matter what the cost.

Regarding the templars, if they were to start answering to the crown in Ferelden rather than the Chantry, I think one of the things that would happen is that Alistair would request (in a not really a request kind of way) that they stop giving new templar recuits lyrium, and that if possible those who can be weened off it are.

The only problem with this scenario is it works too well and makes too much sense. This is Dragon Age, so there has to be a giant honkin' fly in the ointment.

I think the weening off of lyrium reduces their anti-magicness. I don't know that Alistar would want the Templars disbanded so much as the mages freed. In other words, having magic resistant soldiers/police force is very useful. I'm certain Anora would want to keep that capability around.

[Octan92]

Skwervin wrote...

One one of my playthroughs (a mage) I chose to ask for the freedom of the mages as my boon for killing the archdemon which was accepted. Also when I redid the playthrough (with me dying and Alistair madly in love with me ) he ALSO gave the mages freedom from the Chantry.... and a new tower named after me (buffs nails on her dress).

Which begs the question - why does Anders has his knickers in such a twist? Why not live happy and a free mage in Ferelden?

I always assumed Anders was being held at that mage prison Lily was sent to due to his early escape attempts from the circle and Rylock was the prison's crooked warden, which would explain her being out Ander's blood.  I doubt that place had familial atmosphere the Ferelden Circle had.

[Raiil]

PantheraOnca wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

Because the Chantry refused to free the mages. Hence the issue with Meredith and Alistair in DA2. The circle is still under the control of the Chantry at that point, although Alistair has apparently put apostates under his protection.

And yeah, Anders is seeing things through a demon--and he wants all mages to be free no matter what the cost.

Regarding the templars, if they were to start answering to the crown in Ferelden rather than the Chantry, I think one of the things that would happen is that Alistair would request (in a not really a request kind of way) that they stop giving new templar recuits lyrium, and that if possible those who can be weened off it are.

The only problem with this scenario is it works too well and makes too much sense. This is Dragon Age, so there has to be a giant honkin' fly in the ointment.

I think the weening off of lyrium reduces their anti-magicness. I don't know that Alistar would want the Templars disbanded so much as the mages freed. In other words, having magic resistant soldiers/police force is very useful. I'm certain Anora would want to keep that capability around.

Alistair has enough first hand experience and Anora has enough functioning brain cells to keep them around as a check/balance against mages. And the truth of it is, any mage who has witnessed blood magic and not considered it an option probably wants them too. Hell, you can intergrate them into city guards as a special 'someone accidently the chantry, get here STAT' force. They have a rational function in society, just like guards/police.

[errant_knight]

PantheraOnca wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

Because the Chantry refused to free the mages. Hence the issue with Meredith and Alistair in DA2. The circle is still under the control of the Chantry at that point, although Alistair has apparently put apostates under his protection.

And yeah, Anders is seeing things through a demon--and he wants all mages to be free no matter what the cost.

Regarding the templars, if they were to start answering to the crown in Ferelden rather than the Chantry, I think one of the things that would happen is that Alistair would request (in a not really a request kind of way) that they stop giving new templar recuits lyrium, and that if possible those who can be weened off it are.

The only problem with this scenario is it works too well and makes too much sense. This is Dragon Age, so there has to be a giant honkin' fly in the ointment.

I think the weening off of lyrium reduces their anti-magicness. I don't know that Alistar would want the Templars disbanded so much as the mages freed. In other words, having magic resistant soldiers/police force is very useful. I'm certain Anora would want to keep that capability around.

I don't think that's true. Alistair never took lyrium and he's as good or better at templar skills as anyone else. He's convinced that lyrium isn't necessary and is only a way for the Chantry to control their templars. If his templars weren't addicts like the Chantry templars, he'd be a step ahead in the game, not to mention that he's no longer be at the mercy of the Chantry's control of they lyrium trade, or supplies of it from Orzammar. As long as the templars are addicted, they're vulnerable.

 What? Disbanded? No, that isn't what we've been talking about at all. He'd much rather have them answer to the crown and be there in case of abominations or blood mages. The templars don't have to be disbanded to free the mages, they just need to be out or Chantry control.

Modifié par errant_knight, 07 avril 2011 - 02:31 .

[errant_knight]

I'm not believing that Alistair was abandoned by BOTH his parents until I have to. Besides, the elven part wouldn't matter, the children of elves and humans are human, Grey wardens don't have genetic skills, and as far as we know, there's no connection between mage blood and templars, so that seems like a stretch anyway. It seems more likely that he's right and it's a tool to control an army.

Modifié par errant_knight, 07 avril 2011 - 02:36 .

[Urazz]

errant_knight wrote...

PantheraOnca wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

Because the Chantry refused to free the mages. Hence the issue with Meredith and Alistair in DA2. The circle is still under the control of the Chantry at that point, although Alistair has apparently put apostates under his protection.

And yeah, Anders is seeing things through a demon--and he wants all mages to be free no matter what the cost.

Regarding the templars, if they were to start answering to the crown in Ferelden rather than the Chantry, I think one of the things that would happen is that Alistair would request (in a not really a request kind of way) that they stop giving new templar recuits lyrium, and that if possible those who can be weened off it are.

The only problem with this scenario is it works too well and makes too much sense. This is Dragon Age, so there has to be a giant honkin' fly in the ointment.

I think the weening off of lyrium reduces their anti-magicness. I don't know that Alistar would want the Templars disbanded so much as the mages freed. In other words, having magic resistant soldiers/police force is very useful. I'm certain Anora would want to keep that capability around.

I don't think that's true. Alistair never took lyrium and he's as good or better at templar skills as anyone else. He's convinced that lyrium isn't necessary and is only a way for the Chantry to control their templars. If his templars weren't addicts like the Chantry templars, he'd be a step ahead in the game, not to mention that he's no longer be at the mercy of the Chantry's control of they lyrium trade, or supplies of it from Orzammar. As long as the templars are addicted, they're vulnerable.

 What? Disbanded? No, that isn't what we've been talking about at all. He'd much rather have them answer to the crown and be there in case of abominations or blood mages. The templars don't have to be disbanded to free the mages, they just need to be out or Chantry control.

From what I've gathered, Lyrium does enhance templar abilities enough to make it worth using apparantly but obviously the Chantry was also using it as a form of control as well.

[KnightofPhoenix]

errant_knight wrote...
I don't think that's true. Alistair never took lyrium and he's as good or better at templar skills as anyone else. He's convinced that lyrium isn't necessary and is only a way for the Chantry to control their templars.

I hesitate to use gameplay as evidence vis a vis lore but:

"Through ingestion of carefully prepared lyrium, templars gain resistance to magic, including the ability to interrupt spells. "

"The lyrium infusing the templar's blood protects the templar from the Fade's influence. The templar gains resistance to all forms of hostile magic."

The last part refers to Annulment, which provides 50% magic resistance.

So while Lyrium may not be necessary, it seemingly provides benefits. Whether it makes up for the disadvantages however, is up to you.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 07 avril 2011 - 02:36 .

[Satyricon331]

The Chantry's (as opposed to the Templars') control of lyrium never made sense to me.  How are the Mothers and Sisters going to control the trade when it's the Templars that have the power to guard the supplies and traderoutes?  Now that we know about the Seekers, they might play a role, but it's hard to picture elite agents doing such menial tasks, unless they hire out or something.  (Not to say it's impossible the Chantry has other means, it just was never clear to me.)

Anyway, I read through the thread and I wanted to post a link to a vid of Leliana's appearance in the Sebastian DLC.  There are a number of these vids on youtube that explore the different reply options.  I never got the impression that she was snooty or anti-magic, although she does seem to support the Circle system and perhaps that's enough to qualify as anti-magic... just putting the link up so people can judge for themselves.

[errant_knight]

If this is actually true (referring to KoP's gameplay post), it seems like a retcon. I'm pretty sure we were supposed to take Alistair at his word about that in Origins.

Modifié par errant_knight, 07 avril 2011 - 02:44 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

errant_knight wrote...

If this is actually true, it seems like a retcon. I'm pretty sure we were supposed to take Alistair at his word about that in Origins.

He does say "maybe it doesn't do even that".