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This One Actually Applauds DA2


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#76
Zjarcal

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Salaciouschicken wrote...
I don't mean to insult those who enjoy the game, I only believe that if you really... honestly...with all your heart...believe this game is either better than the first in terms of design and execution, or think that this game is the best thing since sex or sliced bread, you should REALLY tink about getting your head checked out.


If you honestly thought that wasn't going to offend anyone, maybe you're the one who should consider getting their head checked out.

Modifié par Zjarcal, 06 avril 2011 - 10:23 .


#77
The Uncanny

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Zjarcal wrote...

Salaciouschicken wrote...
I don't mean to insult those who enjoy the game, I only believe that if you really... honestly...with all your heart...believe this game is either better than the first in terms of design and execution, or think that this game is the best thing since sex or sliced bread, you should REALLY tink about getting your head checked out.


If you honestly thought that wasn't going to offend anyone, maybe you're the one who should consider getting their head checked out.


I need to get my head checked out and I'm proud of it.

#78
axl99

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This one cares not for the negative outcry when someone actually enjoyed a game. Why ruin it for them? Let them eat their cake for Maker's sake.

#79
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Pacifien wrote...

That depends on what you expected when they said "go deeper." It told a different story about the world of Thedas. The first game was about the Grey Wardens, the Blight, and Ferelden. The second game was about the Templars, the Mages, a city of the Free Marches. In that respect, you "go deeper" into the story because you learn more. Plus it's marketing speech.


In DA:Origins we had Circle of Magi, we came to know about mages, apostates, templars, positions in their order, how chantry is involved in all this, how politics affects the ministry,king's rule, circle of magi,templars etc. We have seen those things. Where do we go deeper ?

In DA2 we are looking at those things with different angel. Things are not detailed or goes further deep. Infact I find DA2 rather shallow.

Pacifien wrote...
The repeating dungeon is not the details I'm referring to. I like the redesign of the races to give them a very distinct skeletal structure from each other. I find the story more detailed. I find the ability to increase the height/depth of level design (possible by the elimination of the top-down perspective) to be of finer detail.


Well, I appreciate all the enthusiasm of developers but those detailing didnt really speak out where as skipping of isometric camera did really stand out. 

Another thing you said is that the story is more detailed ! How is it ? Infact I find alot of things missing, alot of things feeling skipped,rushed or forced on your face rather than more detail. Just look at the way the flow of the game is done. Act1 , Act 2 , Act3 . After Act1 you meet some people you have no idea but they tell you that they have been working with you since 1 year. I dont find details here, rather lack of details.

Pacifien wrote...
I don't defend the successor on the basis that its predecessor had bugs. I just find the argument that DA2 is a poor game because it has bugs seems incongruous with the praise its predecessor gets in spite of its bugs. If you acknowledge that DA:O is a good game in spite of its bugs, then I don't think it makes for a good argument to say that DA2 is a poor game because of its bugs.


Fair point however, why are you just focusing on bugs for DA:O , hell alot of bugs in DA:O has still not been fixed especially if we include expansion and dlcs. In case of DA2 it adds further to the disappointing overall experience whereas incase of DA:Origins there are lot of other elements in the game which compensate.

#80
Zjarcal

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The Uncanny wrote...

Zjarcal wrote...

Salaciouschicken wrote...
I don't mean to insult those who enjoy the game, I only believe that if you really... honestly...with all your heart...believe this game is either better than the first in terms of design and execution, or think that this game is the best thing since sex or sliced bread, you should REALLY tink about getting your head checked out.


If you honestly thought that wasn't going to offend anyone, maybe you're the one who should consider getting their head checked out.


I need to get my head checked out and I'm proud of it.


You're doing it wrong Canny... 

It's "This one needs to get her head checked. This one is also proud of it." :P

#81
Siansonea

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This one doesn't care that other people don't like DA2, but does wonder why the other expends so much energy hating on the game. This one guesses it must be fun for the other. *this one shrugs*

#82
The Uncanny

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Zjarcal wrote...
You're doing it wrong Canny... 

It's "This one needs to get her head checked. This one is also proud of it." :P


This one acknowledges that she royally messed up. ^_^

#83
Norskatt

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axl99 wrote...

This one cares not for the negative outcry when someone actually enjoyed a game. Why ruin it for them? Let them eat their cake for Maker's sake.



Norskatt Approves +100

#84
Shadow of Sparta

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fair dues.it had flaws (reused levels) but it is ver enjoyable.in my opinion anyway,

#85
fchopin

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Norskatt wrote...

axl99 wrote...

This one cares not for the negative outcry when someone actually enjoyed a game. Why ruin it for them? Let them eat their cake for Maker's sake.



Norskatt Approves +100



This one approves Norskatt :)

#86
The Uncanny

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Norskatt wrote...

axl99 wrote...

This one cares not for the negative outcry when someone actually enjoyed a game. Why ruin it for them? Let them eat their cake for Maker's sake.


Norskatt Approves +100


This one approves of your approval and adds approval of her own. :wizard:

#87
Pacifien

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1000questions wrote...
Another thing you said is that the story is more detailed ! How is it ?

I don't have the ability to tell you. It's an actual limitation of my ability to describe why I like game that you don't.

#88
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Norskatt wrote...

I do not need my head examined, thanks for the concern though. I think this game was 'as' enjoyable as DA:O. Good, Better, Best? Who am I to say.  I liked them both. Are there things I like better in DA:O? Yes. Are there things I like better in DA II? Yes.  But I am happy with the game as is. DA:O wasn't without it's share of bugs at release. And in time the bugs causing complaints in DA:II will be fixed.  I went in to DA:II without having read ANYTHING about the game. I stayed away from any & all info about it prior to the release of the demo. So, I didn't go in expecting it to be anything other than what it was....another great game from Bioware.


This one certainly applauds your decision making process. This one also appreciates the fact you are extremely loyal to bioware. This one however wonders over your contradictory statement which you made.

"So, I didn't go in expecting it to be anything other than what it was....another great game from Bioware."

You say you went without expecting and yet you thought it is going to be another great game. Correct this one if this one is wrong but you EXPECTED game to be great. This one has been confused by you :blink:

#89
Bostur

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The critics of the critics seems to keep using the argument that some of us didn't like it solely because it wasnt a continuation of DAO.

I really don't recognize this. I didn't expect a continuation, neither in terms of story or gameplay. I did expect improvements to the mechanics and a different story.


Most of the critique seems to center on lack of depth, lack of polish and repetitive gameplay. I personally found DA2 annoying to play after a while to the extent that I couldn't carry on, even though some of the story elements was interesting and might have been worthwhile to see through to the end. The gameplay was simply too boring, and the interface and controls too annoying to be fun.

I've played a lot of sequels, and I expect them to have a lower standard. But its rare that I have seen quality drop this fast.

#90
Finnigan McBonk

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Alex Kershaw wrote...

'Unfair'

Metacritic score: 82
Worst Bioware RPG ever by quite some margin

You can state your opinion, but don't say that the majority are wrong or unfair.


I'm not sure what you intend to communicate here. You say a score of 82 is the worst bioware rpg ever by quite some margin? But it is still an 82.... That makes this game better than dozens, if not hundreds of other games out there And by a large margin, correct? You can state the majority opinion, but don't say that mine or anyone else's is wrong or unfair.

#91
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Pacifien wrote...

I don't have the ability to tell you. It's an actual limitation of my ability to describe why I like game that you don't.


OK

****:innocent:wonders if developers will say they are not able to make better game than what they came out with in form of DA2 given the circumstances.

#92
Norskatt

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1000questions wrote...

Norskatt wrote...

I do not need my head examined, thanks for the concern though. I think this game was 'as' enjoyable as DA:O. Good, Better, Best? Who am I to say.  I liked them both. Are there things I like better in DA:O? Yes. Are there things I like better in DA II? Yes.  But I am happy with the game as is. DA:O wasn't without it's share of bugs at release. And in time the bugs causing complaints in DA:II will be fixed.  I went in to DA:II without having read ANYTHING about the game. I stayed away from any & all info about it prior to the release of the demo. So, I didn't go in expecting it to be anything other than what it was....another great game from Bioware.


This one certainly applauds your decision making process. This one also appreciates the fact you are extremely loyal to bioware. This one however wonders over your contradictory statement which you made.

"So, I didn't go in expecting it to be anything other than what it was....another great game from Bioware."

You say you went without expecting and yet you thought it is going to be another great game. Correct this one if this one is wrong but you EXPECTED game to be great. This one has been confused by you :blink:

Yeah, sorry. I confuse myself at times too  :)  I just meant that I didn't expect it to be "OMG THE GREATEST GAME EVER" kind of game. But I expected that I'd probably like it, if for no other reason than I liked the first one & it's a fantasy themed kind of game and generally speaking I like fantasy style rpgs.  And I was pleasantly surprised that I liked it as much as I did. I only meant that for me, not knowing anything about any changes they made or characters in the game...etc etc...it turned out to be a great game for me.  

I'll promise I'll not contradict myself more than a dozen times or so  :)

EDIT: I changed my wording with the paragraph you quoted. See if you like the changes I made  :whistle:

Modifié par Norskatt, 06 avril 2011 - 11:03 .


#93
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Finnigan McBonk wrote...

I'm not sure what you intend to communicate here. You say a score of 82 is the worst bioware rpg ever by quite some margin? But it is still an 82.... That makes this game better than dozens, if not hundreds of other games out there And by a large margin, correct? You can state the majority opinion, but don't say that mine or anyone else's is wrong or unfair.


Do you really think people acquired/played/bought this game thinking it is one of those hundred odd games out there ? DA2 got all the attention in the world it can acquire not because it is one of the hundred games out there but because it is the next game in DA franchise by Bioware with a predecessor like DA:Origins

#94
LiquidGrape

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While I will readily agree that DA2 needed more development time to reach its full potential, I honestly cannot comprehend those who claim Origins was superiour in its storytelling and thematic contents.

The fundamental intrigue of Origins never added up to anything more than the proverbial "beat this reptilian manifestation of evil over the head with a big stick". A finely crafted big stick, and a big stick with the best of intentions, sure; but a big stick all the same. The more imaginative passages were consistently found outside of the main storyline.
Dragon Age 2, however, provided a truly subtextually dense experience. At times heavy-handed, I'll grant you that much, but with that level of ambition involved, I'm ready to ignore the occasional slip into rhetorics. The same applied to the more inspired moments of Origins and the Mass Effect series, after all.

Also, where Origins would present conflicts with seemingly only two possible solutions, often violent and diametrically opposed, it would more often than not gladly slap on a rather forced "everyone wins" scenario if you had accumulated an arbitrary amount of "persuasion points" or similar (read: Connor, Dalish, et al.).
DA2 grants you no such opportunity. The player's interaction with the conflicts portrayed are accounted for within the framework of what the developers thought was relevant for direct involvement. Origins story arc was just as linear, make no mistake, the difference here being that DA2 has the courtesy to tell a more focused and sequentially experimental story, with more emphasis on the personal and its struggle to adapt to a foreign place with a foreign political climate.

On the subject of personal, another point in DA2's favour: the characters exist outside the sphere of the player's bias and influence. Yes, you shape relationships with these people, friendly or otherwise, but at no point does their individuality give way for the benefit of fan wish fulfillment.
Isabela is likely the most complex romance in BioWare's catalogue. She doesn't fawn over Hawke, she doesn't fall head over heels in love simply because she recognises the player character upon first sight. Your relationship with her is built over a considerable timeline, and when/if you finally reach that point where she admits to having feelings she was previously unwilling to admit to herself, it feels like a real achievement, not only for Hawke, but for Isabela herself.
I've heard some people murmur about "pandering" in the light of the four love interests all being bisexual, but it's a non-calory problem and only an issue to those who are eager to find one. Had pandering being operative it would've been problematic, not to mention counter-productive, but the characters in question are so thoroughly developed that I never considered the notion.
I never had any reason to.

Now, I'm perfectly aware that several people are just waiting to dissect the bilge above in an attempt to prove me wrong through some absurdist empirical study of "good" and "bad".
But I couldn't care less.
I got my money's worth. And I got an experience I cherish.
If you cannot say the same, I'm very sorry. But please stop insinuating that your perceived insight into the matter is objective truth.

Modifié par LiquidGrape, 06 avril 2011 - 11:18 .


#95
Selene Moonsong

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I, for one, am a very long time RPG fan, beginning with D&D pen and paper around 1979-1980, and have played many cRPGs since the mid to late 80's, my favorite at around that time being the original Pool of Radiance series published by SSL for the C-64 on 5.25" floppy disks, and later the Baldur's Gate series, NWN, up through DA: Origins and DA II.

Quite frankly, I enjoyed them all, and I can point out faults in every cRPG I have ever played. One thing I learned in all my years of playing computer games of any kind is that when I hear of a new game I have been waiting for, is to keep my expectations realistic.

I pay attention to what the developers are telling us, and take everything said by everyone with a healthy grain of salt. When I am interested, I buy the game and when I play a game, I develop my own opinions based on my perceptions of what the Developers were attempting to create when developing the game, judging each game on its own merit, as opposed to directly comparing every little detail to its predecessor, especially when the developer has already stated that the game will be different in some manner.

Keeping my expectations firmly grounded, I began my first run through DA II open-minded as I already knew DA II would be very different from Origins, based on the premise the Developers stated for DA II; A game focused on a specific Human family and the Champions rise to power, that we would be assuming the role of a single family member, etc.

In essence, the clues were all there as information was forthcoming in these very forums during pre-release.

In the end, I was not disappointed at all. and I really do enjoy DA II. This game isn't perfect, but neither are any other of my favored games I previously mentioned. I am currently working on playing Origins and completing some of those games with very different endings to import those into DA II just for the fun of it and to see the differences and how they may affect the character I play based on those particular histories...

#96
Sabriana

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Oh, lookee here, the moderators are finally showing up, and not only to lock threads. How very nice.

Although, I must admit that I do like Pacifien's style.

However, I am observing that many, many posters resort to bashing DA:O to validate their "love" for DA 2. Including Bio employees.

Guess what. I don't really care what *you* think of DA:O. Personally, I love it with all my heart. DA 2 is just a pale shadow of DA:O imo, and it can't reach it even with the highest praise put out by anybody, including the upper echelons of the DA 2 debacle.

DA:O, with all it's bugs, strangeness (Wynne being able to access the BM spec for example), and small plotholes, is very much superior to DA 2 in every possible way. What bugs me the most is not the gamers who think that promoting DA 2 is best done by bashing DA:O. What really bugs me is that the people who are responsible for one of the best games in recent history think nothing of bashing it in favor to promote a far, far inferior sequel.

#97
1000questions

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LiquidGrape wrote...

While I will readily agree that DA2 needed more development time to reach its full potential, I honestly cannot comprehend those who claim Origins was superiour in its storytelling and thematic contents.

The fundamental intrigue of Origins never added up to anything more than the proverbial "beat this reptilian manifestation of evil over the head with a big stick". A finely crafted big stick, and a big stick with the best of intentions, sure; but a big stick all the same. The more imaginative passages were consistently found outside of the main storyline.
Dragon Age 2, however, provided a truly subtextually dense experience. At times heavy-handed, I'll grant you that much, but with that level of ambition involved, I'm ready to ignore the occasional slip into rhetorics. The same applied to the more inspired moments of Origins and the Mass Effect series, after all.

Also, where Origins would present conflicts with seemingly only two possible solutions, often violent and diametrically opposed, it would more often than not gladly slap on a rather forced "everyone wins" scenario if you had accumulated an arbitrary amount of "persuasion points" or similar (read: Connor, Dalish, et al.).
DA2 grants you no such opportunity. The player's interaction with the conflicts portrayed are accounted for within the framework of what the developers thought was relevant for direct involvement. Origins story arc was just as linear, make no mistake, the difference here being that DA2 has the courtesy to tell a more focused and sequentially experimental story, with more emphasis on the personal and its struggle to adapt to a foreign place with a foreign political climate.

On the subject of personal, another point in DA2's favour: the characters exist outside the sphere of the player's bias and influence. Yes, you shape relationships with these people, friendly or otherwise, but at no point does their individuality give way for the benefit of fan wish fulfillment.
Isabela is likely the most complex romance in BioWare's catalogue. She doesn't fawn over Hawke, she doesn't fall head over heels in love simply because she recognises the player character upon first sight. Your relationship with her is built over a considerable timeline, and when/if you finally reach that point where she admits to having feelings she was previously unwilling to admit to herself, it feels like a real achievement, not only for Hawke, but for Isabela herself.

Now, I'm perfectly aware that several people are just waiting to dissect the bilge above in an attempt to prove me wrong through some absurdist empirical study of "good" and "bad".
But I couldn't care less.
I got my money's worth. And I got an experience I cherish.
If you cannot say the same, I'm very sorry. But please stop insinuating that your perceived insight into the matter is objective truth.


All the long explanation boils down to one thing in the lengthy post. 

I liked the game, I dont care about your opinon if you dont like it even if it is logical,rational or honest criticism.

Well, somehow I dont care about the plea made in the end too.

#98
The Uncanny

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Yes. Just ignore the critical dissection. It clearly all boils down to one point. Well done.

#99
Pacifien

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1000questions wrote...
All the long explanation boils down to one thing in the lengthy post. 

I liked the game, I dont care about your opinon if you dont like it even if it is logical,rational or honest criticism.

Well, somehow I dont care about the plea made in the end too.

There is a genuine reluctance of people to post that they enjoyed this game on this forum because their opinion will not be taken as logical, rational, or honest. Only criticism is allowed to be those three things.

#100
LiquidGrape

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1000questions wrote...

All the long explanation boils down to one thing in the lengthy post. 

I liked the game, I dont care about your opinon if you dont like it even if it is logical,rational or honest criticism.

Well, somehow I dont care about the plea made in the end too.



By all means, criticise. What I wanted to illustrate with that disclaimer was how I've grown tired of being accused of being willfully blind or a hired goon through the most incongruous speculation, simply for having a positive stance on the subject.
So if you want to address my points, go right ahead. But I would appreciate it if you didn't attempt to discredit me by reducing my argument to a single sentence.