297 réponses à ce sujet

[Cobrawar]

Twulfster wrote...

Hey!
I apologise firstly for the rather short entry here but I just wanted to sound off on my enjoyment of Dragon Age 2.

I'm urged to post because I feel disappointed by the harsh and unfair reception the 'fans' seem to be giving the game and I'm finding it maddening to see a far from medicore game recieve a constant savage beating.

We are all of us entitled to our own opinions and I'm glad we seem to atleast acknowledge and understand that amoungst ourselves. However I wonder if perhaps too many of us are diluting our overall experience with the game in favour of playing up the parts we didn't expect or didn't enjoy.

I've been a steady fan of BioWare from NeverWinter Nights onwards, so I may not be as old school as others here but I but I know stellar game design when I see it, and I'd stick my neck out to say that Modern-Bioware are a prime example of a direction worth exploring in gaming. 

To those of us who love and adore Dragon Age Origins, I'd ask you to really think about the major differences between these two games. It's a personal story told in a style that Bioware have refined and begun to master.

Sure, it's maybe not an Epic like Origins was- but was it ever advertised to be a homage to the adventure games of old, like Origins was?
I've a terrible memory but I'm fairfly confident that angle was never one used to hype Dragon Age 2, because it's a game set in the same universe, not an expansion pack. I wonder if maybe people expected something we were never promised, and that maybe more of us should just enjoy the 50 hours we get for our money?

Once again, different strokes for different folks and I'd like to remind anyone reading that I'm not here to start a fight and I'm also not interested in insulting anyone elses opinion. I just find myself growing uncomfortable with the 'backlash' surrounding what I feel was well worth my money. It wasn't Dragon Age : Origins v2 but I wasn't expecting that, I got what I expected and I found myself impressed with what was achieved given the limitations in play.

I guess what I want to say is people seem to forget that creative ventures aren't always flawless first time around and that video games can never stay in one place for long- they're one of the only mediums persistently pushed forwards, constantly forced and expected to change and evolve.

Bioware was met with roaring success in Mass Effect and I won't deny there's a fair share of Mass Effect in Dragon Age 2 but please stop claiming it's 'dumbing down' 'lazy' and 'selling out'. I'm a independant Comic Artist; if I came up with a unique way to allow people to read my comics, why would I not apply some of that success across all of my ventures?

Plus, guys. Varric. Varric.

If you think Da2 is a geat game then you havent really played many rpg's.  varric sucks.

[Twulfster]

I'm finding myself increasingly baffled by the members on this forum!

@Cobrawar

Sure thing, I have an opinion that differs from yours so therefore I'm inexperienced with similar games.

[Otterwarden]

MingWolf wrote...

Discounting the fact that indeed some users may be a bit unfair in rating DA2, the user score is still 43 for the PC platform. Out of 269 RPG games released for the PC that is mentioned on that site, only 6 has a lower score than that 43 attached to DA2. Now, its hard to make an objective statement on that 43, given the difficulty in measuring what constitute as a fair review, but its still hard to discount the approval/disapproval of the 2,349 people who gave the game a rating.

Not saying yours nor anyone's opinion is wrong. It just doesn't seem as though its better than the hundreds, let alone the dozens. In the end, it doesn't really matter. Just thought I'd point that out since I had nothing better to do.

Not only that, if you look at the other games, I believe the next closest in volume only had something like 600+ user feedback comments.  The PC version is pushing 2350 on its own.

[Narreneth]

Cobrawar wrote...

Twulfster wrote...

Hey!
I apologise firstly for the rather short entry here but I just wanted to sound off on my enjoyment of Dragon Age 2.

I'm urged to post because I feel disappointed by the harsh and unfair reception the 'fans' seem to be giving the game and I'm finding it maddening to see a far from medicore game recieve a constant savage beating.

We are all of us entitled to our own opinions and I'm glad we seem to atleast acknowledge and understand that amoungst ourselves. However I wonder if perhaps too many of us are diluting our overall experience with the game in favour of playing up the parts we didn't expect or didn't enjoy.

I've been a steady fan of BioWare from NeverWinter Nights onwards, so I may not be as old school as others here but I but I know stellar game design when I see it, and I'd stick my neck out to say that Modern-Bioware are a prime example of a direction worth exploring in gaming. 

To those of us who love and adore Dragon Age Origins, I'd ask you to really think about the major differences between these two games. It's a personal story told in a style that Bioware have refined and begun to master.

Sure, it's maybe not an Epic like Origins was- but was it ever advertised to be a homage to the adventure games of old, like Origins was?
I've a terrible memory but I'm fairfly confident that angle was never one used to hype Dragon Age 2, because it's a game set in the same universe, not an expansion pack. I wonder if maybe people expected something we were never promised, and that maybe more of us should just enjoy the 50 hours we get for our money?

Once again, different strokes for different folks and I'd like to remind anyone reading that I'm not here to start a fight and I'm also not interested in insulting anyone elses opinion. I just find myself growing uncomfortable with the 'backlash' surrounding what I feel was well worth my money. It wasn't Dragon Age : Origins v2 but I wasn't expecting that, I got what I expected and I found myself impressed with what was achieved given the limitations in play.

I guess what I want to say is people seem to forget that creative ventures aren't always flawless first time around and that video games can never stay in one place for long- they're one of the only mediums persistently pushed forwards, constantly forced and expected to change and evolve.

Bioware was met with roaring success in Mass Effect and I won't deny there's a fair share of Mass Effect in Dragon Age 2 but please stop claiming it's 'dumbing down' 'lazy' and 'selling out'. I'm a independant Comic Artist; if I came up with a unique way to allow people to read my comics, why would I not apply some of that success across all of my ventures?

Plus, guys. Varric. Varric.

If you think Da2 is a geat game then you havent really played many rpg's.  varric sucks.

Compelling argument as usual, Cobrawar. 

[axl99]

The more I see users object to the overall direction that DA2 is going, the more I want the devs to do as they please just to spite the forum trolls. Because it's totally in their power to do so.

They already made Origins. What the hell are they gonna do with ANOTHER one?

Modifié par axl99, 07 avril 2011 - 12:29 .

[Blackshayde]

I apologize for insulting anyone, this was my first post, and I wasn't aware of the rules.  I just had to jump off the sidelines because I can't believe this game is getting bad reviews.

A lot of folks are claiming that the game lacks merit because its RPG elements have been "dumbed down"; I don't understand why the simplification of the inventory system in this game is obviously an issue, but when Bioware completed GUTTED the inventory system in Mass Effect 1, people didn't seem to care and it didn't affect the overall stellar ratings that game got.  

And if people claim that dumbing down includes making the game "too easy",  I had a damned hard time on Nightmare, and I consider myself a very skilled player, so I'm not sure where that's coming from.  And the complexity of the combat system is essentially still there, you can still pause and have complete control over party members.  The combat may be "flashier", but its essentially the same engine under the hood.  

[Sith Grey Warden]

This one thinks that DA 2 could have been a great game if not for a few things.

The ratio of side questing to main quest stuff was too high.
No overarching conflict (Act I: Expedition, Act I and II: Qunari, Act III, Templars vs. Mages)
Enemies appearing from out of nowhere
Only two options for what to do in the ending (can't walk away or consider both parties wrong)

The big changes from Origins, however, (faster combat, voiced protagonist, had to be human, etc.) simply made for a different experience, not necessarily a worse one.

[jds1bio]

And if you want to play the game on casual, to breeze through while trying out some different RPG choices (of which there are plenty, despite what you may have read), you can do so. After playing a playthrough on hard, a playthrough on casual was kinda neat to watch.

[Narreneth]

Otterwarden wrote...

MingWolf wrote...

Discounting the fact that indeed some users may be a bit unfair in rating DA2, the user score is still 43 for the PC platform. Out of 269 RPG games released for the PC that is mentioned on that site, only 6 has a lower score than that 43 attached to DA2. Now, its hard to make an objective statement on that 43, given the difficulty in measuring what constitute as a fair review, but its still hard to discount the approval/disapproval of the 2,349 people who gave the game a rating.

Not saying yours nor anyone's opinion is wrong. It just doesn't seem as though its better than the hundreds, let alone the dozens. In the end, it doesn't really matter. Just thought I'd point that out since I had nothing better to do.

Not only that, if you look at the other games, I believe the next closest in volume only had something like 600+ user feedback comments.  The PC version is pushing 2350 on its own.

Again, this still isn't an accurate depiction of what the "majority" of players are thinking.  People are too quick to give weight to "polls" given on the internet but are unwilling to take into consideration information such as the userbase of the site the reviews/polls are coming from.  In this case, the e-cool thing to do concerning DA2 is to drag it over some jagged rocks.  Many people have perfectly valid reasons for complaint and have voiced them in a mature and clear manner.  It is undeniable, however, that this game has sparked something akin to the console wars between 360 and PS3. 

Both sides have spawned some fanatics, but the overwhelming majority of the caps lock posts and reviews are from the negative side.  If you take some time to browse through the individual reviews on the game, the reason the score is 43 is because of a problem with user reviews for virtually every single product on the market:  the people who dislike the game give it a 0.  People who like it give it a 10.  There are even people who have rated it a 0 who don't have the game, have only played the demo, or are rating based completely on hearsay.  While everyone is entitled to their opinion, to say that DA2 is deserving of a 0 seems to be well in the realm of unfair.  Do I think it's a 10?  No, probably not.  Personally I'd rate it as a 9 or thereabouts, though that is irrelevant.

If people took the time to honestly weigh what they do and don't like about the game, their reasons for it, and gave an honest review, the feedback would be much different.  This is true for every game, not just DA2.

[Narreneth]

Sith Grey Warden wrote...

This one thinks that DA 2 could have been a great game if not for a few things.

The ratio of side questing to main quest stuff was too high.
No overarching conflict (Act I: Expedition, Act I and II: Qunari, Act III, Templars vs. Mages)
Enemies appearing from out of nowhere
Only two options for what to do in the ending (can't walk away or consider both parties wrong)

The big changes from Origins, however, (faster combat, voiced protagonist, had to be human, etc.) simply made for a different experience, not necessarily a worse one.

I disagree with your point about not being able to consider both parties wrong at the end of DA2.  Just because you are forced to pick a side, doesn't mean that you don't think they're both being fanatics.  You can get stuck in a position where you're forced to pick between two options you don't like in the real world too.

[1000questions]

The metacritic site isnt allowing to review DA2 game any more either. The page seems to be unavailable for some days now.

[Lord_Valandil]

axl99 wrote...

The more I see users object to the overall direction that DA2 is going, the more I want the devs to do as they please just to spite the forum trolls. Because it's totally in their power to do so.

Not speaking in name of the trolls, just in case.
But what's your point? We didn't like the game, and we certainly don't like the new direction.
So...should we just shut up and watch? No.

[fchopin]

Narreneth wrote...

I disagree with your point about not being able to consider both parties wrong at the end of DA2.  Just because you are forced to pick a side, doesn't mean that you don't think they're both being fanatics.  You can get stuck in a position where you're forced to pick between two options you don't like in the real world too.

There was no choice, they should have just had only one dialogue choice as it makes no difference.
 
Choice means a different outcome.

[Krimson_Wolf]

Mesina2 wrote...

OMG I'm not only one!

You are not alone. We are there in the shadows. Join us!

[Tommy6860]

You're well entitled to your thoughts and opinions and I respect that. But DA2 is not well thought out and not much of an RPG, that is what is most discussed when talking the genre. It is dumbed down for that reason. Comic book writing is interesting, but, does it really have a place in RPGs? Sure, humor is great, but the writing consistency in DA2 leaves little to be desired. Seriously, just read some of the answers to the choices Hawke makes, most times, it doesn't follow the expectations. Or, listen to what the companions say, as it is abrupt many times with no feeling or consistency there.

If you got what you did from this game listed below, and you don't feel some laziness was put into this game (for the sake of quick sales and game production turn-around):

- Recycled maps
- Abrupt, inconsistent dialogue
- Unrealistic movement, especially fighting animations in battle
- Airborne spawned enemies that come in waves

And that's just to name a few, then fine, your expectatins are mostly different from the typical RPGer. If you like this, then that's fine, that's all that matters, there will be those attracted to this kind of gaming. But it isn't an RPG in the sense as was Origins, it is more an action/adventure game with framed story-telling, with huge missing chunks of depth between the acts.

I have no problem with this game having a different angle and new characters, different storyline, but the game isn't titled in a way that one, like my myself, who absolutely loved Origins, got the impression that DA2 would follow at least in some respects to its predecessor. Maybe it should have been called Dragon Age: Hawke's Story, or something along that line.

[Fhaileas]

This one puts face to palm at your effusive celebration of what this one considers to be a horribly flawed game.

This one also agrees with the words of the one known as Tommy6860.

Modifié par Fhaileas, 07 avril 2011 - 12:55 .

[MingWolf]

Narreneth wrote...

Otterwarden wrote...

MingWolf wrote...

Discounting the fact that indeed some users may be a bit unfair in rating DA2, the user score is still 43 for the PC platform. Out of 269 RPG games released for the PC that is mentioned on that site, only 6 has a lower score than that 43 attached to DA2. Now, its hard to make an objective statement on that 43, given the difficulty in measuring what constitute as a fair review, but its still hard to discount the approval/disapproval of the 2,349 people who gave the game a rating.

Not saying yours nor anyone's opinion is wrong. It just doesn't seem as though its better than the hundreds, let alone the dozens. In the end, it doesn't really matter. Just thought I'd point that out since I had nothing better to do.

Not only that, if you look at the other games, I believe the next closest in volume only had something like 600+ user feedback comments.  The PC version is pushing 2350 on its own.

Again, this still isn't an accurate depiction of what the "majority" of players are thinking.  People are too quick to give weight to "polls" given on the internet but are unwilling to take into consideration information such as the userbase of the site the reviews/polls are coming from.  In this case, the e-cool thing to do concerning DA2 is to drag it over some jagged rocks.  Many people have perfectly valid reasons for complaint and have voiced them in a mature and clear manner.  It is undeniable, however, that this game has sparked something akin to the console wars between 360 and PS3. 

Both sides have spawned some fanatics, but the overwhelming majority of the caps lock posts and reviews are from the negative side.  If you take some time to browse through the individual reviews on the game, the reason the score is 43 is because of a problem with user reviews for virtually every single product on the market:  the people who dislike the game give it a 0.  People who like it give it a 10.  There are even people who have rated it a 0 who don't have the game, have only played the demo, or are rating based completely on hearsay.  While everyone is entitled to their opinion, to say that DA2 is deserving of a 0 seems to be well in the realm of unfair.  Do I think it's a 10?  No, probably not.  Personally I'd rate it as a 9 or thereabouts, though that is irrelevant.

If people took the time to honestly weigh what they do and don't like about the game, their reasons for it, and gave an honest review, the feedback would be much different.  This is true for every game, not just DA2.

Yes, I mentioned the inaccuracies of the numerical value itself, albeit discreetly.  Why I mentioned it because that out of 269 RPG games, it tended to stray towards the low end of unfavorable.  It may not be accurate, and it may not be "fair" as you say, but weighing and balancing a sample size of 2,300+ players compared to a pile of other RPG games (and I mean a pile) is an indicator that it might not exactly be what some people consider a top-tier above average game to the masses.

Irrelevant to the player, yes, because of subjective opinion.  But since we are on the topic of reception, its worth mentioning such values because 2300+ is still quite a hefty sample size that is indicative of whether people are saying yay or nay to this game.

Modifié par MingWolf, 07 avril 2011 - 12:58 .

[Narreneth]

fchopin wrote...

Narreneth wrote...

I disagree with your point about not being able to consider both parties wrong at the end of DA2.  Just because you are forced to pick a side, doesn't mean that you don't think they're both being fanatics.  You can get stuck in a position where you're forced to pick between two options you don't like in the real world too.

There was no choice, they should have just had only one dialogue choice as it makes no difference.
 
Choice means a different outcome.

If that's your only criteria for what makes a choice in a game a choice, then you didn't have many choices in Origins, either.  Regardless you kill the Archdemon, Duncan dies, etc. etc.  Yes, the method that the Archdemon is killed with changes, but the outcome does not.  Just because the final battle has to happen to move things along in the story, doesn't mean you don't have any choices along the way.

[Narreneth]

Fhaileas wrote...

This one puts face to palm at your effusive celebration of what this one considers to be a horribly flawed game.

This one also agrees with the words of the one known as Tommy6860.

This one golf claps your condescending post.

[MelfinaofOutlawStar]

Lord_Valandil wrote...

axl99 wrote...

The more I see users object to the overall direction that DA2 is going, the more I want the devs to do as they please just to spite the forum trolls. Because it's totally in their power to do so.

Not speaking in name of the trolls, just in case.
But what's your point? We didn't like the game, and we certainly don't like the new direction.
So...should we just shut up and watch? No.

Well to be fair they can do as they please. Makes our decisions as consumers much easier.

[axl99]

Lord_Valandil wrote...

axl99 wrote...

The more I see users object to the overall direction that DA2 is going, the more I want the devs to do as they please just to spite the forum trolls. Because it's totally in their power to do so.

Not speaking in name of the trolls, just in case.
But what's your point? We didn't like the game, and we certainly don't like the new direction.
So...should we just shut up and watch? No.

The point was in the last sentence:
They already made Origins. What the hell are they gonna do with ANOTHER one?

And besides, nothing stopped them from making DA2. What difference will a lot of well-meaning but excessively negative criticism make? A good chunk of it was useless and unconstructive. The rhetoric screamed of "WHY CAN'T THIS BE LIKE ORIGINS?" 

What can a gameplay designer glean from that? That some things worked and some things didn't? They already know what we think. What they do from there isn't up to any of us here.

So yes. There isn't a damned thing anyone else here can do about it other than be excessively vocal about any and all opinions on these forums. A point that the OP made to begin with.

People like that make newer fans of the franchise feel unwelcome and intimidated. That's not how fans should share their love of a game.

Modifié par axl99, 07 avril 2011 - 01:06 .

[Apollo Starflare]

Norskatt wrote...

It baffles me how some people think that you can't honestly like both games and appreciate the difference between the two. I love DA:O but, I also love DA:II.

Norskatt wrote...

I do not need my head examined, thanks
for the concern though. I think this game was 'as' enjoyable as DA:O.
Good, Better, Best? Who am I to say.  I liked them both. Are there
things I like better in DA:O? Yes. Are there things I like better in
DA II? Yes.  But I am happy with the game as is. DA:O wasn't without
it's share of bugs at release. And in time the bugs causing complaints
in DA:II will be fixed.

This one is quoting these for truth. Well said. LiquidGrape's post is also a good read, saying most of what I could say on the subject much better than I actually could.

The sad thing about the state of the forums and the people causing said atmosphere's defence that 'someone needs to say it' is that if this place was a nicer/friendlier place to post about the game there would actually be a lot more CONSTRUCTIVE criticism. As opposed to the often incredibly biased or rambling rages of posters who didn't get what they want or are otherwise just stiring the pot. Almost every poster here who I've seen get accused of being a 'Biodrone' or similar I have also seen post constructive criticism of what the game didn't do so well elsewhere.

Conversely we all too often see people who didn't like DA2 commenting on the intelligence of those that did, amongst other unnecessary things. All in all it's added up to an often close to toxic atmosphere on these boards for a good number of people (perhaps like the OP) who wanted to say something more positive about the game before moving on to what they didn't like so much.

I swear that while similar backlashes happen in other media industries it is particularly bad with games.

[Otterwarden]

Narreneth wrote...

Again, this still isn't an accurate depiction of what the "majority" of players are thinking.  People are too quick to give weight to "polls" given on the internet but are unwilling to take into consideration information such as the userbase of the site the reviews/polls are coming from.  In this case, the e-cool thing to do concerning DA2 is to drag it over some jagged rocks.  Many people have perfectly valid reasons for complaint and have voiced them in a mature and clear manner.  It is undeniable, however, that this game has sparked something akin to the console wars between 360 and PS3. 

Both sides have spawned some fanatics, but the overwhelming majority of the caps lock posts and reviews are from the negative side.  If you take some time to browse through the individual reviews on the game, the reason the score is 43 is because of a problem with user reviews for virtually every single product on the market:  the people who dislike the game give it a 0.  People who like it give it a 10.  There are even people who have rated it a 0 who don't have the game, have only played the demo, or are rating based completely on hearsay.  While everyone is entitled to their opinion, to say that DA2 is deserving of a 0 seems to be well in the realm of unfair.  Do I think it's a 10?  No, probably not.  Personally I'd rate it as a 9 or thereabouts, though that is irrelevant.

If people took the time to honestly weigh what they do and don't like about the game, their reasons for it, and gave an honest review, the feedback would be much different.  This is true for every game, not just DA2.

I have taken some time to read through the individual reviews.  And, while we can't use this source as an indication of the reception as a whole, it does appear to suggest that there was something in this game that brought many RPG gamers out of their complacency to the barricades.  Personally, since I did read the reviews, I'm not buying the fanatics representation on either side of the debate, and zero or ten can simply be seen as a "thumbs up" /"thumbs down" vote.

[Otterwarden]

MelfinaofOutlawStar wrote...

Lord_Valandil wrote...

axl99 wrote...

The more I see users object to the overall direction that DA2 is going, the more I want the devs to do as they please just to spite the forum trolls. Because it's totally in their power to do so.

Not speaking in name of the trolls, just in case.
But what's your point? We didn't like the game, and we certainly don't like the new direction.
So...should we just shut up and watch? No.

Well to be fair they can do as they please. Makes our decisions as consumers much easier.

Really, why would I care if they want to go around without a nose

[Tommy6860]

Selene Moonsong wrote...

I pay attention to what the developers are telling us, and take everything said by everyone with a healthy grain of salt. When I am interested, I buy the game and when I play a game, I develop my own opinions based on my perceptions of what the Developers were attempting to create when developing the game, judging each game on its own merit, as opposed to directly comparing every little detail to its predecessor, especially when the developer has already stated that the game will be different in some manner.

This paragraph takes the cake IMO, the last line is the
pinnacle of that thinking. It is different in just "some manner",
please!? It is diametrically opposed to anything that functions or plays out
like Origins did, therefore, it is truly not the same kind of game. Seriously,
if you think bunny-hopping rogue kills and backstabs (as just a few examples)
is realistic RPG gaming, then so be it. I doubt any serious RPGer would agree
with you outside of the Final Fantasy diehards. Take this how you please, but
the game was not advertised nor promoted to be a near totally different game
than Origins, nor has it panned out to be anything close to an RPG.

Modifié par Tommy6860, 07 avril 2011 - 01:13 .