66 réponses à ce sujet

[Deified Data]

Another thread in a long line appealing directly to the lead writer himself, by half-heartedly putting his name in the title!

I have no desire to rag on the game or its writing (both of which I find quite satisfying). That being said, I can't help but notice that there are some scenarios which play out in DAII regardless of decisions made in Origins. I'm not asking "Why" these indiscrepancies exist, so much as "What are they, and how many of them are there?". Leliana and Zevran live, there can be no doubt about that. The Hero of Ferelden, if s/he lives, becomes the Warden-Commander and defacto Arl of Amaranthine, regardless of the player's choice at the end of Origins (say, I chose to wander, rebuild the Circle, or return to Orsammar instead).

I won't ask why these choices were decided to be set in stone (though I would appreciate an explanation). I'm just curious about any other choices/outcomes that the lead writer considers..."more canon than others", maybe. Did the Hero of Ferelden definitely save the Circle mages? Did he definitely arrange for Morrigan to sleep with either himself, Alistair, or Loghain? What of Redcliffe?

Just out of curiousity - also for future playthroughs of Origins, so that I might follow official canon more closely if i choose to. Many thanks.

[Maria Caliban]

As of DA II:
Zevran does not live if you kill him. That's bug.

Leliana and Anders always lives.

The Warden does not have to be a human noble or male. The US is recognized (in fact, it's one of the presets) and the OGB is not canon.

There is always *a* Warden-Commander at Ameranthine.

If Nate is recruited, the Architect lives. I'm not sure if that's a bug or not.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 06 avril 2011 - 10:35 .

[Ealos]

Would be nice to know a timeline of things that are set in stone, if that were decided. When does the HoF retire as WC, for instance? Is it right after Awakenings, as in the Epilogue, or up until his disappearance?

[Anarcala]

If Nate is recruited, the Architect lives. I'm not sure if that's a bug or not.

Bug, apparently. You can recruit Nate, have him survive, kill the Architect and have Nate still pop up in DA2.

[Maria Caliban]

The Blight (9:30) -> Awakenings -> Much of DA II -> Warden and Hawke gone (9:40)

That's the best timeline you're going to find. Anything more specific will contradict itself.

[Solo80]

I'm not neither David nor Gaider, which probably comes as a bit of a disappointment to all parties concerned, but if nothing else, consider my reply a free bump of your topic.

From what I've seen of Mr. Gaider's replies, though, it seems as if the official policy is that there is no set canon. This is no doubt influenced by the way the Mass Effect series are doing things, which is wildly ambitious and very cool, if pulled off correctly.

It's also, I imagine, a lead writer's nightmare, and after a point, keeping track of all the possible threads and character choices becomes utterly impossible. Mass Effect might be able to pull it off - it's a limited universe with a fixed, single protagonist set within a very limited time scope. Making every character choice matter over the course of several games might just work in that setting, as long as they limit it to a trilogy (though we still haven't seen how well implemented this will actually be in Mass Effect 3 yet).

With a project like Dragon Age, though, which, according to the developers, is more about a world than a character, with no plans (afaik) of limiting it to a trilogy, having no set canon will quickly become an impossibility. Already, game developers are concerned about "90% of the players not seeing 60% of the content" not being commercially sound (can't remember where that quote is from, but it was from a developer), but with a game setting like Dragon Age...

Imagine making a choice about the rights of city elves in Dragon Age: Origins. Now, the next game that takes us to Denerim will have to cater for both choices - not ideal, since 50% of the players won't see the other half of the content, but not an impossibility. Now imagine making a choice that builds upon the previous choice - moving Denerim's city elves to their own city in one playthrough, or slaughtering them all in another. Now imagine the next game in the series continuing to build upon the choices made in the previous game, and so on, and soon the threads will be so many and so far apart, Bioware would have to make Dragon Age 6: For Those Who Eradicated All City Elves AND Dragon Age 6: For Those Who Have An All-Elven Thedas.

Basically, what I'm saying is, having no official canon isn't viable in the long run for the DA series, but for now, I think they'll try and see how far they can push it, and how little of the canon they have to set in stone for the story to work.

Does David Gaider have an internal canon that he's not sharing with us, though? I'd bet on it

[Alamar2078]

IIRC most of the issues like this are actually bugs. Actually hopefully everything except Leliana [which we're promised an explanation for at some time] are bug related.

Otherwise I don't see any other recourse then to assume that choices don't really matter when folks decide to ignore them for the sake of the story.


Edit:  I believe that you should be able to manage a "planned trilogy" or similar and make the choices in the games "meaningful" without derailing what you do with future installments.  The thing is though is that all of the choices you can make [in the trilogy] have to be mapped out and you must limit the choices the player can make to those that fit within the story you want to tell.

If you allow choices that "break" the story then you're going to either have to change the story ... not good or you're going to annoy players that made choices that are ignored / contradicted in latter installments.

Another thing you may do [which is disappointing but understandable] is to limit the choices a character can make within the game so that the choices ONLY impact the game itself.   For example if in DA1 you have a choice to wipe out Elves in the Denerim Alienage then you need to make sure that in DA2 & DA3 that this choice never really comes up or is talked about again.   Granted it's the lazy man's way out but it should work.

Modifié par Alamar2078, 06 avril 2011 - 11:03 .

[Maria Caliban]

Dragon Age isn't a trilogy.

Also, I've seen one part where player's choice is ignored: the death of Leliana.

The death of Anders happens when you leave him at Vigil's Keep and it's overwhelmed by darkspawn. The PC isn't there. There's no body. For all we know, he turned tail the moment he realized the Keep was going to be taken and left everyone else to die.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 06 avril 2011 - 10:59 .

[Alamar2078]

I know it's not a trilogy. I was saying though that if you are going to import choices you have to either plan out the choices very carefully or at least limit the scope of the choices so they don't improperly impact future titles.

[Solo80]

Alamar2078 wrote...

If you allow choices that "break" the story then you're going to either have to change the story ... not good or you're going to annoy players that made choices that are ignored / contradicted in latter installments.

No matter how they handle this, they won't be able to please everyone. Having a set canon simplifies things for the developers, leaving them in a better position to actually take the story somwhere interesting instead of spending all their time trying to cater to everyone's choices.

The OGB is a prime example of this - do you really want Bioware to not explore that route? With a decade having passed since the Blight, they will soon have to make choice on wether or not the OGB is canon - unless you want Dragon Age IV: OGB edition AND Dragon Age IV: Non-OGB edition.

I really would prefer having a set canon - and consider my other, non-canon playthroughs fun experiments, like Darkspawn Chronicles, or the ones where I specced Wynne as a Blood Mage. Expecting every character choice to matter will lead to developer/writer hell, and will eventually preclude the writers from doing anything really big with the setting. OR it will lead to Crisis on Infinite Thedas' (Thedii? ) - which nobody wants to see happen.

Modifié par Solo80, 06 avril 2011 - 11:14 .

[thenemesis77]

Solo80 wrote...

I'm not neither David nor Gaider, which probably comes as a bit of a disappointment to all parties concerned, but if nothing else, consider my reply a free bump of your topic.

From what I've seen of Mr. Gaider's replies, though, it seems as if the official policy is that there is no set canon. This is no doubt influenced by the way the Mass Effect series are doing things, which is wildly ambitious and very cool, if pulled off correctly.

It's also, I imagine, a lead writer's nightmare, and after a point, keeping track of all the possible threads and character choices becomes utterly impossible. Mass Effect might be able to pull it off - it's a limited universe with a fixed, single protagonist set within a very limited time scope. Making every character choice matter over the course of several games might just work in that setting, as long as they limit it to a trilogy (though we still haven't seen how well implemented this will actually be in Mass Effect 3 yet).

With a project like Dragon Age, though, which, according to the developers, is more about a world than a character, with no plans (afaik) of limiting it to a trilogy, having no set canon will quickly become an impossibility. Already, game developers are concerned about "90% of the players not seeing 60% of the content" not being commercially sound (can't remember where that quote is from, but it was from a developer), but with a game setting like Dragon Age...

Imagine making a choice about the rights of city elves in Dragon Age: Origins. Now, the next game that takes us to Denerim will have to cater for both choices - not ideal, since 50% of the players won't see the other half of the content, but not an impossibility. Now imagine making a choice that builds upon the previous choice - moving Denerim's city elves to their own city in one playthrough, or slaughtering them all in another. Now imagine the next game in the series continuing to build upon the choices made in the previous game, and so on, and soon the threads will be so many and so far apart, Bioware would have to make Dragon Age 6: For Those Who Eradicated All City Elves AND Dragon Age 6: For Those Who Have An All-Elven Thedas.

Basically, what I'm saying is, having no official canon isn't viable in the long run for the DA series, but for now, I think they'll try and see how far they can push it, and how little of the canon they have to set in stone for the story to work.

Does David Gaider have an internal canon that he's not sharing with us, though? I'd bet on it

If Davids story is about the world......whey the hell make DA2 about Hawke?  I know that David likes stories that the main PC is not so important and or the other characters become more important then the Main PC that the player loved.  I'am starting to get the feeling that we will never get use to a main PC in a game and David will try and force this world on us and thus, not working. This is not a book, it's a game that people play and I bet that half of them like the "very" character that David takes out.

If David has any kind of story about his world, it's went all over the place and has no real footing and at best is a d grade movie. How can you build a story without Main characters, I really can't stand the way he tells stories and now I know why....they don't link up and no characters link up and thats the way he wants it and it's just a soap box to him, damn that's not a rpg, it's the sims. 

This is the guy that will write DA3, well get ready for some new character and oh, it's about life as a brick layer and wow what a RPG.   Why does David seem to hate the idea of carrying over the PC you have played before?  If you want to bash me go ahead..don't care.

[Chuvvy]

It's canon that Leliana and Anders are alive.

[Kreid]

I know player choice is pretty much a Bioware staple by now, but I think people should start coming to realize that eventually:

a) Certain key parts or characters will be set "canon" eventually because they are simply too important/essential to the game's world (like Leliana's death)
You will NEVER be able to make BIG choices regarding the state of the world, because then like Solo80 said above, Bioware wouldn't be able to cope with all the ramifications of every players' actions, it will be like DA2, you will be presented an illusion of choice, but things will happen in a predefined way.

I think that trying to make our choices matter is commendable from Bioware's part, but we have to be realistic and accept not EVERY choice will always be up to the player, because there's no way to make a coherent setting then.

[Morroian]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Dragon Age isn't a trilogy.

Also, I've seen one part where player's choice is ignored: the death of Leliana.

The death of Anders happens when you leave him at Vigil's Keep and it's overwhelmed by darkspawn. The PC isn't there. There's no body. For all we know, he turned tail the moment he realized the Keep was going to be taken and left everyone else to die.

Plus couldn't Justice have gone into him then.

[Deified Data]

Solo80 wrote...

I'm not neither David nor Gaider, which probably comes as a bit of a disappointment to all parties concerned, but if nothing else, consider my reply a free bump of your topic.

From what I've seen of Mr. Gaider's replies, though, it seems as if the official policy is that there is no set canon. This is no doubt influenced by the way the Mass Effect series are doing things, which is wildly ambitious and very cool, if pulled off correctly.

It's also, I imagine, a lead writer's nightmare, and after a point, keeping track of all the possible threads and character choices becomes utterly impossible. Mass Effect might be able to pull it off - it's a limited universe with a fixed, single protagonist set within a very limited time scope. Making every character choice matter over the course of several games might just work in that setting, as long as they limit it to a trilogy (though we still haven't seen how well implemented this will actually be in Mass Effect 3 yet).

With a project like Dragon Age, though, which, according to the developers, is more about a world than a character, with no plans (afaik) of limiting it to a trilogy, having no set canon will quickly become an impossibility. Already, game developers are concerned about "90% of the players not seeing 60% of the content" not being commercially sound (can't remember where that quote is from, but it was from a developer), but with a game setting like Dragon Age...

Imagine making a choice about the rights of city elves in Dragon Age: Origins. Now, the next game that takes us to Denerim will have to cater for both choices - not ideal, since 50% of the players won't see the other half of the content, but not an impossibility. Now imagine making a choice that builds upon the previous choice - moving Denerim's city elves to their own city in one playthrough, or slaughtering them all in another. Now imagine the next game in the series continuing to build upon the choices made in the previous game, and so on, and soon the threads will be so many and so far apart, Bioware would have to make Dragon Age 6: For Those Who Eradicated All City Elves AND Dragon Age 6: For Those Who Have An All-Elven Thedas.

Basically, what I'm saying is, having no official canon isn't viable in the long run for the DA series, but for now, I think they'll try and see how far they can push it, and how little of the canon they have to set in stone for the story to work.

Does David Gaider have an internal canon that he's not sharing with us, though? I'd bet on it

Thanks for the very thoughtful reply. I agree - if players are given the opportunity to shape Thedas to their every whim, creating a long-running series that responds to your decisions becomes a near-impossibility. I'm not opposed to a canon in the least, so long as it doesn't make my last playthroughs feel...illegitimate, you know what I mean? Say, in Dragon Age 3, it's revealed that the Hero of Ferelden was in fact a Human Noble, and those tales about him being an Elf Mage were simply heresay.

Ultimately, I agree that Bioware needs to give players choices that they (Bioware), think they can realistically handle in the next playthrough. That's why the ending to DAII felt like such a non-choice - either way, the mages rebel and chaos reigns. Because, if that were not the case and Hawke managed to broker some sort of peace, DAIII would be a completely different game depending on who the player sided with.

It's difficult to craft a coherent story - I know from experience. Perhaps they should approach it from the Elder Scrolls perspective, where player choice exists but does not carry over to sequels. What is it we get, anyway? The occasional character cameo?

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Anders' death was pretty unambiguous in the Awakening epilogue as I understand. Didn't it say that his body was found surrounded by dozens of slain darkspawn with an arrow in his throat? His appearance in DA II is a pretty clear canonized choice to me. But then Oghren can conceivably be killed in Origins and still appear in Awakening. I don't know about Zevran. I killed him in Origins and when I imported that save into DA 2 I didn't find him. But it's possible I just didn't find his quest. One bug i did run into was Nathaniel. He was left at an upgraded Vigil's Keep and he didn't appear in my game.

[Alamar2078]

Creid-X wrote...
I think that trying to make our choices matter is commendable from Bioware's part, but we have to be realistic and accept not EVERY choice will always be up to the player, because there's no way to make a coherent setting then.

I still claim that you can make a coherent setting by knowning where you want to take the story in the next 2-3 games.  Then you plan your "big" choices in such a manner that they still fit within the story you're planning.  Then you can pepper each individual game with choices that will only impact the game itself while leaving the larger story unaffected.

IMHO "flying by the seat of your pants" is what results in not being able to keep a coherent setting.  Allowing story-breaking / environment-breaking choices to be made in this sort of setting is the last thing you need to be doing.

[Avissel]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Dragon Age isn't a trilogy.

Also, I've seen one part where player's choice is ignored: the death of Leliana.

The death of Anders happens when you leave him at Vigil's Keep and it's overwhelmed by darkspawn. The PC isn't there. There's no body. For all we know, he turned tail the moment he realized the Keep was going to be taken and left everyone else to die.

Leliana's death isn't "ignored". When someone claimed that in another thread David's response was "Who said it didn't happen?" Your Warden killed her, something else brought her back.

If your able to meet Nat in the darkroads, which some of us don't due to bugs, and you have Ander's with you and Ander's was supposed to have died at the end of Awakening, Ander's himself comments "What did you see? A body in robes? Badly burned? Do all Mages look alike to you?" Impling that his death at the end of Awakening was faked.

[Ksandor]

In refering to the people who say that Mass Effect has no canon: Mass Effect has a set canon. Mass Effect comics are based on that canon. For instance Udina is the councillor, not Anderson. Mass Effect novels are also based on that canon. That said, I think we do need a canon. Things are getitng out of hand. Discrepancies occur. Either we or the developers ignore them but this a not good way of doing that. I think there should be a canon to base the novels and comics on. And all important decisions should carry over to the 3rd game. If we will never return to Ferelden this is even more easy. Alternative codex entries are mostly enough. But if we return to Ferelden.... That's complicated. Especially if we consider the DAO flags imported to the DA II.

[Ferretinabun]

According to the wiki, Anders has a number of epilogues, one of which is this:

"No longer a part of the Wardens, the Chantry brands him an apostate, but never captures him. He is last seen on a pirate ship with a familiar woman."

I suppose this is the one we can consider most cannon. We can easily infer the pirate woman is Isabela. Not sure what the conditions for it are, though.
There is an ending where he dies, and an ending where he stays a grey warden for years, which are both ruled out, I guess. There's also one where he is recaptured by the templars but then escapes and vanishes, and one where he is simply hailed as a hero after the battle of Vigil's Keep, both of which, I suppose, are on the table.
As for Leliana, I suppose her appearances imply she does not get 'hardened', since she stays with the chantry. And that the US Origins ending with Lel romance is out too.
Also, I correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Bann Teagan and King Alistair mention the warden being 'back at Denerim by now'? Implying you didn't disappear into the mirror with Morrigan?

[Avissel]

nevermind

Modifié par Avissel, 07 avril 2011 - 03:06 .

[Bmeszaros]

Maria Caliban wrote...

As of DA II:
Zevran does not live if you kill him. That's bug.

Leliana and Anders always lives.

The Warden does not have to be a human noble or male. The US is recognized (in fact, it's one of the presets) and the OGB is not canon.

There is always *a* Warden-Commander at Ameranthine.

If Nate is recruited, the Architect lives. I'm not sure if that's a bug or not.

I actually didn't have a save playthrough of the first game and just chose to use the default backgrounds. In my "Hero of Ferelden" playthrough, I was tasked with saving a group of Dwarfs in the deep roads, when I played with the "No Compromise" background, I was tasked with saving Nate Howe....

So one of two things happened in the Hero of ferelden awakenings portion, either Nate Howe was released when captured or he was killed by the Warden Commander, who would have been the child of the murdered Couslands.... Makes sense that he isn't there in you go with the default background.

[Grissium]

Remember there are a few bugs with the import which (hopefully) will be addressed in the patch. So who knows what is getting retconned and what is the game reading the import incorrectly.

[Cutlass Jack]

Avissel wrote...

Leliana's death isn't "ignored". When someone claimed that in another thread David's response was "Who said it didn't happen?" Your Warden killed her, something else brought her back.

Yup this. We just don't have the answers yet. Assuming it even is the same Leliana (and not someone pretending to be her...bards are spies after all), she could have lived from something as simple as getting Urn dust on her...or maybe the Maker really was looking out for her. Wouldn't that be funny if she wasn't crazy after all...

Either way we'll find out eventually.

Justice is about the only excuse Anders really needs. I doubt we'll get more explanation there.

[sten_super]

I don't mind the ret-conning/cannonising/whatever you want to call it, but what I find strange is the way in which they use it. Why re-use things that have a major impact and could easily be avoided? I wasn't particularly bothered about the Lelliana cameo and Anders attitude has changed so much that he may as well be a new character. Why (potentially) bring people back from the dead when it would be easy to use new characters?

At the same time, it'd be easy to recognise the Origins decision to (for example) grant land to the elves in a bit of background VO chat somewhere (as it won't have a major impact on life in the Free Marches). For me the point of having things carry over is to provide immersion, not just to provide cameos (I found it a bit odd to be honest the number of people that had seemingly all decamped from Ferelden to Kirkwall).

The Elder Scrolls tried to give multiple endings in Daggerfall and then subsequently realised what a mess it was to incorporate into future games, having used the ridiculous plot device that is 'The Warp in the West'. Subsequently all events are only vaguely referenced in future games, in a subtle manner.