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#251
Dave666

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Epic777 wrote...

Just one question, why would the reapers want your tech? Since its mostly based on theirs?


And could potentially be at a lower level than what they've gained from past Reapings.  The Protheans for example were at the early stages of building Relays (The Conduit).  Its not unreasonable to imagine in a previous cycle the Reapers ignoring a species that hadn't quite reached Space Flight but was very close.  Such a Species may have had access to the Citadel for nearly 50,000 years before the Reapers showed up.  I wonder what level of tech they had?

#252
JKoopman

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Epic777 wrote...

Just one question, why would the reapers want your tech? Since its mostly based on theirs?


Because, being AI,  Reapers may lack the capacity for creative thought. They would then have to rely on organic species to find new applications for and evolutions of technology while also ensuring that said technology is compatible with their systems. Different species think in different ways, therefor each "reaping" sees new and previously unconsidered developmental paths.

Basically, we'd facilitate Reaper evolution. They'd be relying on us to show them alternate ways of doing things, adapting and absorbing anything useful and then wiping us out before we could threaten them.

Granted, there's the potential that a reaping cycle would come and go without anything of significance being developed, but what's 50,000 years to a race of immortal machines?

Modifié par JKoopman, 08 avril 2011 - 02:31 .


#253
Almostfaceman

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JKoopman wrote...

I already have. You ignored it.

She could be recieving scans and data on the Human Reaper from Shepard. She couldve scanned the Derelict Reaper while she was parked outside it for nigh on an hour. Or it could be from data gathered from Cerberus' collected Sovereign salvage. You simply assume that the only possible explanation is that she's infiltrated the Collector Base.


And... all of those are more likely than her scanning the place that makes the big giant reaper... how?  And... aren't all of those assumptions as well?  So... the reason you're getting all in a big argument about it is... why? 

:blink:

Modifié par Almostfaceman, 08 avril 2011 - 02:29 .


#254
Bourne Endeavor

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CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Actually, I saw a nice lecture by one of the lead writers at Pixar. He said this - good side characters are ones that bring out aspects of the main character's story, and give us insight into the main character's thoughts, feelings, and ambitions. Often, side characters will be cut out of Pixar films if they only advance the plot without shedding any light onto the main character's personality, or struggle.

The example he used was Jesse, in Toy Story 2. She's a great character, an important character, but her primary reason for existing is to cause Woody to feel guilty about returning home, and to illuminate the relationship Woody has with Andy. All the characters in ME2 and their respective missions are designed to better help you decide what kind of character Shepard is, and to see her in relation to them.

Example: Garrus. He is, in many ways, Pargon Shepard's cautionary tale, about the kinds of trouble being a Renegade can get you into. He's a warning... what can happen if you get too cocky, too careless. Alternatively, for Renegade Shep, he's an example of what happens if you go too soft... if you trust too much. His recruitment mission is a story about how, if you just try to go crazy and do it all alone, you'll end up bleeding on the ground. His loyalty mission is about either about the risks of going Renegade (if you're Para shep) or the rewards and validity of going Renegade (if you're Rene Shep)

That's what Bioware is talking about when they say it's a story about the characters.

A bland, uncharacterized squadmate who just happened to study reapers would not make this story more character-based. That's what Amanda Kenson was, and I don't know anyone who considers her a better or more interesting character than the squaddies.


While that is a nice analogy, there is no basis for because Shepard is a brick. (s)he does not develop nor does Garrus' actions of any impact on his/her going forward, whereas I would presume Jesse's does. Shepard can question Garrus but ultimately is along for the ride either way. If you opt to save Sidonis nothing changes and Shepard is the same brick we have begrudgingly come to love or steadily grown to hate, your mileage may vary.

The fundamental issue is none of the characters develop the plot, excluding Mordin, who does so via a plothole. If Garrus was among the few who was purely optional, in a similar capacity to say Vincent of Final Fantasy, great, he is a minority. This is not the case of Mass Effect 2 where everyone is damn near nonexistent devoid of their episodic arc.

If Shepard developed as a character, this would be more relevant but (s)he is stale throughout the game and takes a backseat.

It's possible that they were just making the baby reaper because it was something they were going to do anyway.   "Ok, we might as well have Harby get started on the whole 'use humanity to reproduce' part of the plan while we hoof it to the galaxy."

I think that reproduction and slave creation are a major reason why they Reap. So they were always going to make a goo baby, they just decided to get that projet started early, because why not?


So... in lieu of a discreet and elusive approach, where victory has a significantly higher probability, they decide to draw attention to themselves? Furthermore, their answer to Sovereign as a "back up scenario" was an inferior design?

Perhaps, because it is moronic. There was virtually nothing to indicate they were doing anything and had they stuffed the Collectors away after Shepard's death. They would arrive unbeknownst to the entire galaxy. In essence, their plan was stupid.

And yes, if the alliance hadn't sent Shepard to blow up the Batarians, the Reapers would be here already.  But if the Illusive man hadn't sent her after the collectors, they could have wiped out half the colonies in the terminus system by now, and ended up with a partially complete human reaper, poised to make a move on Earth to finish it. That would be bad! 


Sovereign was a fully constructed Reaper and liable to be widely superior to an organic hybrid when you factor in the liability issues. Organic material would expose additional weaknesses in comparison to machinery and straight Reaper tech. With this in mind, Sovereign was still destroyed. Therefore, the Collectors and their Terminator would have been annihilated. Evidently, this does not include the speculation the Terminus Systems could not be sufficient enough for the Reaper baby.

Point being, you do not create a side mission that negates the entire plot of the main game. Doing so only reaffirms the belief ME2 was pointless.

ME3's promo movie has implied that the collectors have some kind of foot-soldier on the ground during the earth invasion (not cannon, grain of salt, blah blah), that's who the sniper is firing at, after all. What we learned about the collectors might help us fight whatever this new kind of foot soldier is, if it isn't just another bunch of collectors, which it may well be.

I'll be surprised if sentients being turned into goo and slave-race footsoldiers aren't a major plot point in ME3. But hey, I guess we'll see.


You saw that as a Collector? It appeared to be a husk, which given their frequent appearance amongst Reapers, is far more likely. What we learned about the Collectors is nothing, except they were Prothens. This would have been a worthwhile venture if the game did not handwave it almost instantaneously.

People have expectations ME3 is going to provide the abundance of exposition lacking in the predecessor whilst moving the series forward to its inevitable concussion and it simply is not feasible. A narrative of that magnitude would equate to double what we have witnessed previously and does not take into account any development elsewhere. The Collector Base for instance cannot have relevance due to it be optional.

Modifié par Bourne Endeavor, 08 avril 2011 - 02:30 .


#255
Il Divo

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JKoopman wrote...

Because, being AI,  Reapers may lack the capacity for creative thought. They would then have to rely on organic species to find new applications for and evolutions of technology while also ensuring that said technology is compatible with their systems. Different species think in different ways, therefor each "reaping" sees new and previously unconsidered developmental paths.

Basically, we'd facilitate Reaper evolution. They'd be relying on us to show them alternate ways of doing things, adapting and absorbing anything useful and then wiping us out before we could threaten them.

Granted, there's the potential that a reaping cycle would come and go without anything of significance being developed, but what's 50,000 years to a race of immortal machines?


But nothing even remotely close to this is described via the narrative. EDI at least presents us with the conclusion that Reapers reproduce through organic species. It's something to go on.

I went back and watched the ME1 clip, at no point does anyone raise the possibility of the Reapers extinguishing all life for our technology.

#256
JKoopman

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Almostfaceman wrote...

JKoopman wrote...

I already have. You ignored it.

She could be recieving scans and data on the Human Reaper from Shepard. She couldve scanned the Derelict Reaper while she was parked outside it for nigh on an hour. Or it could be from data gathered from Cerberus' collected Sovereign salvage. You simply assume that the only possible explanation is that she's infiltrated the Collector Base.


And... all of those are more likely than her scanning the place that makes the big giant reaper... how?  And... aren't all of those assumptions as well?  So... the reason you're getting all in a big argument about it is... why? 

:blink:


You asked for any alternate possible explanations for how EDI could state for a matter of fact that Reapers were "sentient contstructs" without being inside the Collector systems. I provided you with exactly what you asked.

Are you asking how her taking a scan of the derelict Reaper she was parked outside of for nearly an hour is more likely than her wirelessly infiltrating the Collector databanks when she's previously been shown to be unable to do so? Are you asking how her having knowledge of Reaper composition due to her program being based on recovered Reaper tech is more likely than her being inside the Collector systems yet for some reason exerting no control over them? Really?

Ya know what? I'm done arguing this.

Modifié par JKoopman, 08 avril 2011 - 02:40 .


#257
Dave666

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Il Divo wrote...

JKoopman wrote...

Because, being AI,  Reapers may lack the capacity for creative thought. They would then have to rely on organic species to find new applications for and evolutions of technology while also ensuring that said technology is compatible with their systems. Different species think in different ways, therefor each "reaping" sees new and previously unconsidered developmental paths.

Basically, we'd facilitate Reaper evolution. They'd be relying on us to show them alternate ways of doing things, adapting and absorbing anything useful and then wiping us out before we could threaten them.

Granted, there's the potential that a reaping cycle would come and go without anything of significance being developed, but what's 50,000 years to a race of immortal machines?


But nothing even remotely close to this is described via the narrative. EDI at least presents us with the conclusion that Reapers reproduce through organic species. It's something to go on.

I went back and watched the ME1 clip, at no point does anyone raise the possibility of the Reapers extinguishing all life for our technology.


I've litterally just finished another run through of ME:1 (half an hour ago), Vigil mentions that the Reapers systematically wiped out the Protheans and cleaned each planet of all tech and resources (though aparently they missed quite a bit), I just read that as they didn't want to give the next cycles races too much of a head start (other than what the Reapers wanted us to have).

#258
Almostfaceman

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JKoopman wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...

JKoopman wrote...

I already have. You ignored it.

She could be recieving scans and data on the Human Reaper from Shepard. She couldve scanned the Derelict Reaper while she was parked outside it for nigh on an hour. Or it could be from data gathered from Cerberus' collected Sovereign salvage. You simply assume that the only possible explanation is that she's infiltrated the Collector Base.


And... all of those are more likely than her scanning the place that makes the big giant reaper... how?  And... aren't all of those assumptions as well?  So... the reason you're getting all in a big argument about it is... why? 

:blink:


You asked for any alternate possible explanations for how EDI could state for a matter of fact that Reapers were "sentient contstructs" without being inside the Collector systems. I provided you with exactly what you asked.

Are you asking how her taking a scan of the derelict Reaper she was parked outside of for nearly an hour is more likely than her wirelessly infiltrating the Collector databanks when she's previously been shown to be unable to do that? Are you asking how her having knowledge of Reaper composition due to her program being based on recovered Reaper tech is more likely than her being inside the Collector systems yet for some reason exerting no control over them? Really?

Ya know what? I'm done arguing this.


Good.  If you can't give me that she possibly scanned the Collector Base, I'm done with this as well.

#259
Il Divo

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Dave666 wrote...

I've litterally just finished another run through of ME:1 (half an hour ago),


Nice. Image IPB

Vigil mentions that the Reapers systematically wiped out the Protheans and cleaned each planet of all tech and resources (though aparently they missed quite a bit), I just read that as they didn't want to give the next cycles races too much of a head start (other than what the Reapers wanted us to have).


That's how I interpreted it as well. Prior to ME2, there never was a clear motive on what the Reapers wanted. Or if they even wanted anything. I almost wondered if Bioware was going to keep them myserious throughout the entire trilogy.

#260
JKoopman

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Almostfaceman wrote...

JKoopman wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...

JKoopman wrote...

I already have. You ignored it.

She could be recieving scans and data on the Human Reaper from Shepard. She couldve scanned the Derelict Reaper while she was parked outside it for nigh on an hour. Or it could be from data gathered from Cerberus' collected Sovereign salvage. You simply assume that the only possible explanation is that she's infiltrated the Collector Base.


And... all of those are more likely than her scanning the place that makes the big giant reaper... how?  And... aren't all of those assumptions as well?  So... the reason you're getting all in a big argument about it is... why? 

:blink:


You asked for any alternate possible explanations for how EDI could state for a matter of fact that Reapers were "sentient contstructs" without being inside the Collector systems. I provided you with exactly what you asked.

Are you asking how her taking a scan of the derelict Reaper she was parked outside of for nearly an hour is more likely than her wirelessly infiltrating the Collector databanks when she's previously been shown to be unable to do that? Are you asking how her having knowledge of Reaper composition due to her program being based on recovered Reaper tech is more likely than her being inside the Collector systems yet for some reason exerting no control over them? Really?

Ya know what? I'm done arguing this.


Good.  If you can't give me that she possibly scanned the Collector Base, I'm done with this as well.


I said in my original post that you yourself quoted, "She could be receiving scans and data on the Human Reaper from Shepard." Scans of the Base =/= interfacing with their systems and mining their databanks.

#261
Almostfaceman

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JKoopman wrote...

I said in my original post that you yourself quoted, "She could be receiving scans and data on the Human Reaper from Shepard." Scans of the Base =/= interfacing with their systems and mining their databanks.


That doesn't discount/disprove my point that she is capable of infiltrating the base systems wirelessly.  You won't consider that possiblity.  That's fine.  Whatever.  Free country.  Live and let live.

Modifié par Almostfaceman, 08 avril 2011 - 02:54 .


#262
JKoopman

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Il Divo wrote...

Dave666 wrote...

I've litterally just finished another run through of ME:1 (half an hour ago),


Nice. Image IPB

Vigil mentions that the Reapers systematically wiped out the Protheans and cleaned each planet of all tech and resources (though aparently they missed quite a bit), I just read that as they didn't want to give the next cycles races too much of a head start (other than what the Reapers wanted us to have).


That's how I interpreted it as well. Prior to ME2, there never was a clear motive on what the Reapers wanted. Or if they even wanted anything. I almost wondered if Bioware was going to keep them myserious throughout the entire trilogy.


So Sovereign stating that the Reapers direct organics down a specific technological path (based on the principles of mass effect technology) and let their civilizations (note: not populations) advance (note: not grow) to the apex of their glory before "harvesting" them as well as Vigil pointing out that Reapers strip every planet they find of technology and resources DOESN'T IN ANY WAY imply that the Reapers are harvesting us for our technology? There's "nothing even remotely close to this described in the narrative"? That's odd, because that was the prevailing theory prior to ME2's release. So clearly a few people "interpereted" those scenes that way.

Ugh. Anyway. Yeah, I'm out. This is giving me a migraine.

Modifié par JKoopman, 08 avril 2011 - 03:04 .


#263
CulturalGeekGirl

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Bourne Endeavor wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Actually, I saw a nice lecture by one of the lead writers at Pixar. He said this - good side characters are ones that bring out aspects of the main character's story, and give us insight into the main character's thoughts, feelings, and ambitions. Often, side characters will be cut out of Pixar films if they only advance the plot without shedding any light onto the main character's personality, or struggle.

The example he used was Jesse, in Toy Story 2. She's a great character, an important character, but her primary reason for existing is to cause Woody to feel guilty about returning home, and to illuminate the relationship Woody has with Andy. All the characters in ME2 and their respective missions are designed to better help you decide what kind of character Shepard is, and to see her in relation to them.

Example: Garrus. He is, in many ways, Pargon Shepard's cautionary tale, about the kinds of trouble being a Renegade can get you into. He's a warning... what can happen if you get too cocky, too careless. Alternatively, for Renegade Shep, he's an example of what happens if you go too soft... if you trust too much. His recruitment mission is a story about how, if you just try to go crazy and do it all alone, you'll end up bleeding on the ground. His loyalty mission is about either about the risks of going Renegade (if you're Para shep) or the rewards and validity of going Renegade (if you're Rene Shep)

That's what Bioware is talking about when they say it's a story about the characters.

A bland, uncharacterized squadmate who just happened to study reapers would not make this story more character-based. That's what Amanda Kenson was, and I don't know anyone who considers her a better or more interesting character than the squaddies.


While that is a nice analogy, there is no basis for because Shepard is a brick. (s)he does not develop nor does Garrus' actions of any impact on his/her going forward, whereas I would presume Jesse's does. Shepard can question Garrus but ultimately is along for the ride either way. If you opt to save Sidonis nothing changes and Shepard is the same brick we have begrudgingly come to love or steadily grown to hate, your mileage may vary.

The fundamental issue is none of the characters develop the plot, excluding Mordin, who does so via a plothole. If Garrus was among the few who was purely optional, in a similar capacity to say Vincent of Final Fantasy, great, he is a minority. This is not the case of Mass Effect 2 where everyone is damn near nonexistent devoid of their episodic arc.

If Shepard developed as a character, this would be more relevant but (s)he is stale throughout the game and takes a backseat.


We're just going to have to agree to disagree here: Jane Shepard one of my favorite video game heroes of all time, and she recieves more development than 90% of the protagonists in any game I've ever played. She's a lot more interesting than Cloud, or Yuna, or Revan, or Gordon Freeman.

What would you consider a well-developed video game main character? Do you play as male shep or female shep, usually? I just can't imagine someone who played female shepard picturing her as unresponsive, and not developing in reaction to these interactions she's having with characters.  Male Shepard I get.. I hate that guy, he really is a brick a lot of the time. Ugh, how could you play this game if you didn't like your Shepard? Maybe your difficulty is that you have to infer Shepard's emotions from his reactions and decisions, rather than being explicitly told how you're supposed to feel? Why does she stop Garrus, or let him kill Sidonus. Is it just whim? For points? I just... can't imagine why you would want to play a game that has chioces if you're not roleplaying the character behind the choices. How could the choice have any relevance for you, if it's not related ot Shepard's character development?

This is one of those cases where I completely cannot understand the reasoning behind a thing. Like someone telling me they don't like the writing in XKCD, they're just interested in the art style.

Of course, nothing else you say makes any sense to me either, so maybe we should just agree to disagree.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 08 avril 2011 - 02:59 .


#264
Il Divo

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JKoopman wrote...

So Sovereign stating that the Reapers direct organics down a specific technological path (based on the principles of mass effect technology) and let their civilizations (note: not populations) advance (note: not grow) to the apex of their glory before "harvesting" them as well as Vigil pointing out that Reapers strip every planet they find of technology and resources DOESN'T IN ANY WAY imply that the Reapers are harvesting us for our technology? There's "nothing even remotely close to this described in the narrative"? That's odd, because that was the prevailing theory prior to ME2's release. So clearly a few people "interpereted" those scenes that way.

Ugh. Anyway. Yeah, I'm out. This is giving me a migraine.


I'm being honest. You're the first person I've seen with this theory. Even amongst Mass Effect 2's staunchest critics, I have never seen anyone argue that Mass Effect 1 tells us that the Reapers kill us for technology.

Where also did Vigil say that the Reapers destroy our technology? Rather, it's their technology they are removing.

#265
piemanz

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Il Divo wrote...

JKoopman wrote...

So Sovereign stating that the Reapers direct organics down a specific technological path (based on the principles of mass effect technology) and let their civilizations (note: not populations) advance (note: not grow) to the apex of their glory before "harvesting" them as well as Vigil pointing out that Reapers strip every planet they find of technology and resources DOESN'T IN ANY WAY imply that the Reapers are harvesting us for our technology? There's "nothing even remotely close to this described in the narrative"? That's odd, because that was the prevailing theory prior to ME2's release. So clearly a few people "interpereted" those scenes that way.

Ugh. Anyway. Yeah, I'm out. This is giving me a migraine.


I'm being honest. You're the first person I've seen with this theory. Even amongst Mass Effect 2's staunchest critics, I have never seen anyone argue that Mass Effect 1 tells us that the Reapers kill us for technology.

Where also did Vigil say that the Reapers destroy our technology? Rather, it's their technology they are removing.


Whether they want technology or not (which i doubt, since all their technology is more advanced than ours).It still a fact that they need organics and specifly humans to Reproduce, hence the existence of the baby reaper.

Modifié par piemanz, 08 avril 2011 - 03:06 .


#266
Almostfaceman

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Il Divo wrote...

JKoopman wrote...

So Sovereign stating that the Reapers direct organics down a specific technological path (based on the principles of mass effect technology) and let their civilizations (note: not populations) advance (note: not grow) to the apex of their glory before "harvesting" them as well as Vigil pointing out that Reapers strip every planet they find of technology and resources DOESN'T IN ANY WAY imply that the Reapers are harvesting us for our technology? There's "nothing even remotely close to this described in the narrative"? That's odd, because that was the prevailing theory prior to ME2's release. So clearly a few people "interpereted" those scenes that way.

Ugh. Anyway. Yeah, I'm out. This is giving me a migraine.


I'm being honest. You're the first person I've seen with this theory. Even amongst Mass Effect 2's staunchest critics, I have never seen anyone argue that Mass Effect 1 tells us that the Reapers kill us for technology.

Where also did Vigil say that the Reapers destroy our technology? Rather, it's their technology they are removing.


Indeed I agree after refreshing my memory on some of those ME1 scenes that it's left a complete mystery why the Reapers "harvest" us every 50k years.

#267
Dave666

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piemanz wrote...

Il Divo wrote...

JKoopman wrote...

So Sovereign stating that the Reapers direct organics down a specific technological path (based on the principles of mass effect technology) and let their civilizations (note: not populations) advance (note: not grow) to the apex of their glory before "harvesting" them as well as Vigil pointing out that Reapers strip every planet they find of technology and resources DOESN'T IN ANY WAY imply that the Reapers are harvesting us for our technology? There's "nothing even remotely close to this described in the narrative"? That's odd, because that was the prevailing theory prior to ME2's release. So clearly a few people "interpereted" those scenes that way.

Ugh. Anyway. Yeah, I'm out. This is giving me a migraine.


I'm being honest. You're the first person I've seen with this theory. Even amongst Mass Effect 2's staunchest critics, I have never seen anyone argue that Mass Effect 1 tells us that the Reapers kill us for technology.

Where also did Vigil say that the Reapers destroy our technology? Rather, it's their technology they are removing.


Whether they want technology or not (which i doubt, since all their technology is more advanced than ours).It still a fact that they need organics and specifly humans to Reproduce, hence the existence of the baby reaper.


Which, if I'm honest is where I have something of a problem, given how Sovereign speaks of Organics.


Sovereign: Rudimentary creatures of blood and flesh. You touch my mind, fumbling in ignorance, incapable of understanding. 

Sovereign: We impose order on the chaos of organic evolution.

Sovereign: Organic life is nothing but a genetic mutation, an accident. Your lives are measured in years and decades. You wither and die. We are eternal, the pinnacle of evolution and existence. Before us, you are nothing. Your extinction is inevitable. We are the end of everything. 

Basically Sovereign showing nothing but disdain for Organic life. 

This to me heavilly suggests that the story was changed.

#268
CulturalGeekGirl

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Dave666 wrote...

piemanz wrote...

Il Divo wrote...

JKoopman wrote...

So Sovereign stating that the Reapers direct organics down a specific technological path (based on the principles of mass effect technology) and let their civilizations (note: not populations) advance (note: not grow) to the apex of their glory before "harvesting" them as well as Vigil pointing out that Reapers strip every planet they find of technology and resources DOESN'T IN ANY WAY imply that the Reapers are harvesting us for our technology? There's "nothing even remotely close to this described in the narrative"? That's odd, because that was the prevailing theory prior to ME2's release. So clearly a few people "interpereted" those scenes that way.

Ugh. Anyway. Yeah, I'm out. This is giving me a migraine.


I'm being honest. You're the first person I've seen with this theory. Even amongst Mass Effect 2's staunchest critics, I have never seen anyone argue that Mass Effect 1 tells us that the Reapers kill us for technology.

Where also did Vigil say that the Reapers destroy our technology? Rather, it's their technology they are removing.


Whether they want technology or not (which i doubt, since all their technology is more advanced than ours).It still a fact that they need organics and specifly humans to Reproduce, hence the existence of the baby reaper.


Which, if I'm honest is where I have something of a problem, given how Sovereign speaks of Organics.


Sovereign: Rudimentary creatures of blood and flesh. You touch my mind, fumbling in ignorance, incapable of understanding. 

Sovereign: We impose order on the chaos of organic evolution.

Sovereign: Organic life is nothing but a genetic mutation, an accident. Your lives are measured in years and decades. You wither and die. We are eternal, the pinnacle of evolution and existence. Before us, you are nothing. Your extinction is inevitable. We are the end of everything. 

Basically Sovereign showing nothing but disdain for Organic life. 

This to me heavilly suggests that the story was changed.


I show nothing but disdain for turnips. I still eat 'em.

Sovereign: I hate turnips. But I am hungry. Omnomnom.

All kidding aside, there are a bunch of ways I can interpret all that without it being inherently contradictory. The problem is, every time I talk about a possible theory in this thread, someone yells Supposition! and clubs me in the head with a fish. And you probably do not want to hear my theories.

Let's just say, aside from the food analogy, you can have a lot of contempt for something and still use it. Fruit flies, lab rats, gravel, tiny pieces of string.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 08 avril 2011 - 03:19 .


#269
Il Divo

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Dave666 wrote...

Sovereign: Rudimentary creatures of blood and flesh. You touch my mind, fumbling in ignorance, incapable of understanding. 

Sovereign: We impose order on the chaos of organic evolution.

Sovereign: Organic life is nothing but a genetic mutation, an accident. Your lives are measured in years and decades. You wither and die. We are eternal, the pinnacle of evolution and existence. Before us, you are nothing. Your extinction is inevitable. We are the end of everything. 

Basically Sovereign showing nothing but disdain for Organic life. 

This to me heavilly suggests that the story was changed.


Remember though that the Reapers do not necessarily consider themselves organics. Remember that they are just as disdainful of the Geth, dismissing them as 'tools'. If the Reapers truly believe themselves to be some evolved form, would we call them either organics or machines?

#270
Almostfaceman

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Dave666 wrote...

Which, if I'm honest is where I have something of a problem, given how Sovereign speaks of Organics.


Sovereign: Rudimentary creatures of blood and flesh. You touch my mind, fumbling in ignorance, incapable of understanding. 

Sovereign: We impose order on the chaos of organic evolution.

Sovereign: Organic life is nothing but a genetic mutation, an accident. Your lives are measured in years and decades. You wither and die. We are eternal, the pinnacle of evolution and existence. Before us, you are nothing. Your extinction is inevitable. We are the end of everything. 

Basically Sovereign showing nothing but disdain for Organic life. 

This to me heavilly suggests that the story was changed.


It's not really that big a stretch - I mean - we organics hold each other in very low regard at times - slaves, ethnic differences - *points at WWII*

How high regard do we hold the bacteria in yogurt that helps us with our digestive system?  It can be a similiar relationship.

#271
Epic777

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Dave666 wrote...

piemanz wrote...

Il Divo wrote...

JKoopman wrote...

So Sovereign stating that the Reapers direct organics down a specific technological path (based on the principles of mass effect technology) and let their civilizations (note: not populations) advance (note: not grow) to the apex of their glory before "harvesting" them as well as Vigil pointing out that Reapers strip every planet they find of technology and resources DOESN'T IN ANY WAY imply that the Reapers are harvesting us for our technology? There's "nothing even remotely close to this described in the narrative"? That's odd, because that was the prevailing theory prior to ME2's release. So clearly a few people "interpereted" those scenes that way.

Ugh. Anyway. Yeah, I'm out. This is giving me a migraine.


I'm being honest. You're the first person I've seen with this theory. Even amongst Mass Effect 2's staunchest critics, I have never seen anyone argue that Mass Effect 1 tells us that the Reapers kill us for technology.

Where also did Vigil say that the Reapers destroy our technology? Rather, it's their technology they are removing.


Whether they want technology or not (which i doubt, since all their technology is more advanced than ours).It still a fact that they need organics and specifly humans to Reproduce, hence the existence of the baby reaper.


Which, if I'm honest is where I have something of a problem, given how Sovereign speaks of Organics.


Sovereign: Rudimentary creatures of blood and flesh. You touch my mind, fumbling in ignorance, incapable of understanding. 

Sovereign: We impose order on the chaos of organic evolution.

Sovereign: Organic life is nothing but a genetic mutation, an accident. Your lives are measured in years and decades. You wither and die. We are eternal, the pinnacle of evolution and existence. Before us, you are nothing. Your extinction is inevitable. We are the end of everything. 

Basically Sovereign showing nothing but disdain for Organic life. 

This to me heavilly suggests that the story was changed.


Harbinger doesn't seem to like organics either.

#272
Guest_Saphra Deden_*

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CulturalGeekGirl wrote...
What would you consider a well-developed video game main character?


Niko Bellic or Marcus Fenix.

#273
Il Divo

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I'd also like to draw attention to this clip with Saren:



I'm not saying the human reaper was handled perfectly, but there definitely does seem to be some hint there of the relationship between organic and machine.

Especially in light of this conversation, Mass Effect 2's plot does not seem quite so nonsensical.

Modifié par Il Divo, 08 avril 2011 - 03:24 .


#274
Almostfaceman

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CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

I show nothing but disdain for turnips. I still eat 'em.

Sovereign: I hate turnips. But I am hungry. Omnomnom.

All kidding aside, there are a bunch of ways I can interpret all that without it being inherently contradictory. The problem is, every time I talk about a possible theory in this thread, someone yells Supposition! and clubs me in the head with a fish. And you probably do not want to hear my theories.

Let's just say, aside from the food analogy, you can have a lot of contempt for something and still use it. Fruit flies, lab rats, gravel, tiny pieces of string.


I am completely innocent of yelling "supposition" at you. :innocent:

#275
piemanz

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Dave666 wrote...

Which, if I'm honest is where I have something of a problem, given how Sovereign speaks of Organics.


Sovereign: Rudimentary creatures of blood and flesh. You touch my mind, fumbling in ignorance, incapable of understanding. 

Sovereign: We impose order on the chaos of organic evolution.

Sovereign: Organic life is nothing but a genetic mutation, an accident. Your lives are measured in years and decades. You wither and die. We are eternal, the pinnacle of evolution and existence. Before us, you are nothing. Your extinction is inevitable. We are the end of everything. 

Basically Sovereign showing nothing but disdain for Organic life. 

This to me heavilly suggests that the story was changed.


Which suggest to me he's being intentionally vague...

"Sovereign: Rudimentary creatures of blood and flesh. You touch my mind, fumbling in ignorance, incapable of understanding."

This is basicly a reaper insult.

"Sovereign: We impose order on the chaos of organic evolution."

Order from chaos?, thats sounds like a good ole fashioned reaping to me.I'm guessing his idea of imposing order is to turn us into pulp and some how ascend to reaperdom....No thanks.

Now the rest sure sounds like he's just taking the pee, and boasting sure but don't forget this was before they knew humans are viable for reproduction, so culling us at this point was their main course of action