546 réponses à ce sujet

[darth_lopez]

LPPrince wrote...

You guys just HAD to remind me of Aesieru, huh?

yes. yes we did.

[piemanz]

darth_lopez wrote...

Gravity is unfortunately an almost non issue though ~7.25m/s (~9-25%[earths is ~9m/s]) still results in speeds of at least ~435m/s after 60 seconds. of falling inside it's gravitational pull. That doesn't take into acount initial velocity (which is knwon to be >0) and neglecting resistance. He's still coming down like a bat out of hell.

You can't just 'negelct' resistance as thats the biggest variable, sheps not going to be sky diving, he's more than like going to be flailing. Not to mention winds are another unknown, the angle of decent , the type of surface he landed on, i could go on and on.

[Almostfaceman]

darth_lopez wrote...
*snip*

It seems to me your perspective is "in my opinion, what remains of Shepard's body in the game after he falls to the planet can't happen in reality."  

The reason I said:

Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth.

... is because my perspective is, "I'm reasoning within the reality of the story.  In the story's reality, Shepard's body plunges to the planets' surface and survives pretty much in one piece - not splatted on the ground."

So, within the reality of the story, I must deduce what happened to slow the body down, because in my mind, he will splat if he doesn't slow down - and clearly it is fact - within the reality of the story - that he doesn't splat.  So, even though it is very improbable, it is possible that a parachute/air brake system existed in the suit and slowed Shepard down.  Therefore, within the reality of the story, this is one possibility that can be the truth.

Look, our discussion is not "my opinion vs. practicality" it's "my opinion vs. your opinion on what is practical".  So it's still "opinion vs. opinion".  No offense, but if you can't admit that - then I'm not interested in carrying this on any further.  We can agree to disagree.

Modifié par Almostfaceman, 09 avril 2011 - 09:50 .

[squee913]

JKoopman wrote...

@Squee913

Have you forgotten that this is a work of fiction? Scientific method can bring us to a conclusion based on the evidence with which we're presented. If that conclusion doesn't make sense within the narrative or conflicts with what logic tells us should have happened then we're well within our rights to "throw up our hands" and declare it a plothole or bad writing.

A scientist doesn't simply look at a problem, invent a possible explanation for it, assume that it is correct and declare the problem solved. He must test and prove his hypothesis. Can you prove any of your theories? What evidence does the narrative give us to support them?

You can invent all sorts of hypothesis to explain it, but you have to show evidence to support them. You literally have nothing upon which to base your theory within the narrative aside from your own supposition and no way to test your hypothesis which, according to the scientific method, discounts it from consideration.

First of all, what theory are we talking about? How many times do I have to say that I AGREE that Shepard's body being recovered needed better explanation. I simply do not believe it is game breaking, and I was using it as an example. We never saw His body hit the ground. Logical assumption or not it is just that, an assumption. Yes, you use evidence from the game to support your logic. So do I. You keep saying that all my arguments are simple supastition with no in game evidence to back them. Pick an argument, ANY argument I have made, and I will show you how I used in game evidence to draw a logical conclusion.

[Dave666]

piemanz wrote...

darth_lopez wrote...

Gravity is unfortunately an almost non issue though ~7.25m/s (~9-25%[earths is ~9m/s]) still results in speeds of at least ~435m/s after 60 seconds. of falling inside it's gravitational pull. That doesn't take into acount initial velocity (which is knwon to be >0) and neglecting resistance. He's still coming down like a bat out of hell.

You can't just 'neglect' resistance as thats the biggest variable, sheps not going to be sky diving, he's more than likely going to be flailing. Not to mention winds are another unknown, the angle of decent , the type of surface he landed on, i could go on and on.

Not arguing for or against this but just wanted to point out that by the time Shep hits the atmosphere (s)he is already unconscious so won't be 'flailing', ragdolled certainly, but not 'flailing'.  Nasa tested it and people lose consciousness after (roughly) 15 seconds.

[george martin]

I enjoyed Smud's critique, a lot of us asked the same questions too I'm sure. I enjoyed ME1 and ME2 more than any other RPG, there's nothing wrong with pointing out problems in the story. The arrival story line could have used a lot more work and better explained many things, that being said I still greatly enjoy the ME series more than any other. Helpful critique will help bioware in ME3, no good writer in the world writes any story and doesn't get any expert advice while doing it. We're the people playing the game so who better to criticize it.

I think that the ME3 storyline will be a lot better than ME2's though especially since were dealing only with the main threat the reapers. No collectors, no omega relay and no human reaper being created. Even though Harbinger and no one else explained what the human reaper was for I figured they were going to use it on the Citadel with the Geth and the collectors, to finish Sovereign's original mission and use their best bet to get back to the Milky Way.

Hopefully the plot in ME3 will be as good or better than ME1 with all the helpful criticism. We finally get to have a full fledged battle with them and I'm looking forward to it, lets hope for an epic sequel perhaps we'll more than surprised.

[didymos1120]

Dave666 wrote...

Not arguing for or against this but just wanted to point out that by the time Shep hits the atmosphere (s)he is already unconscious so won't be 'flailing', ragdolled certainly, but not 'flailing'.  Nasa tested it and people lose consciousness after (roughly) 15 seconds.

I think what was meant was that the Shepcorpse would be tumbling about during the fall.  "Flail" just means "to move in the manner of a flail" (and usually figuratively).  It doesn't necessarily imply that the thing flailing must be a living person doing so, even though it is most often used in that way. Limp extremities whipping about chaotically during a fall fits the definition just fine as far as I'm concerned.

Modifié par didymos1120, 09 avril 2011 - 07:38 .

[Dave666]

didymos1120 wrote...

Dave666 wrote...

Not arguing for or against this but just wanted to point out that by the time Shep hits the atmosphere (s)he is already unconscious so won't be 'flailing', ragdolled certainly, but not 'flailing'.  Nasa tested it and people lose consciousness after (roughly) 15 seconds.

I think what was meant was that the Shepcorpse would be tumbling about during the fall.  "Flail" just means "to move in the manner of a flail" (and usually figuratively).  It doesn't necessarily imply that the thing flailing must be a living person doing so, even though it is most often used in that way. Limp extremities whipping about chaotically during a fall fits the definition just fine as far as I'm concerned.

Hey, I don't have a problem with it either way tbh, I was just throwing it out there to make sure people weren't jumping to the wrong conclusion. Going by the cutscene Shep was already out cold by the time (s)he hit the atmosphere.

On a side note, regardless of what people may think of Smudboy, he certainly raises debate.  We're on what? Page 16 now?  Almost all of the threads I've seen where his name was mentioned were fairly large ones.

[johnbonhamatron]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Oh no, I'm not saying it rationally explains it. I'm saying that the writers and devs felt the need to come up with a concept that explained it... and failed. Instead, they should have just done the same "data file corrupted" bit they did in ME1, where they were like HISTORY CAN'T REMEMBER IF YOU WERE A DUDE, ARE YOU A DUDE?

I still stand behind pretty much everything else about the plot (with the exception of the two or three other things I mentioned, which I consider "writing errors" rather than plot holes).

It's tempting to apply your own logic regarding the reaper storyline, to the Lazarus storyline, in that: we haven't seen game 3, yet. I'm intrigued by the possibility that we haven't been told everything about Project Lazarus, which could lead to an interesting plot progression in ME3.

Namely: can we be sure, yet, that what came out of Lazarus is still Shepard? We've seen plenty of speculative fiction toying with the idea of machines not knowing they're machines, and it doesn't seem outside the realms of possiblity that Bioware could play around with the idea in the third game.

Do I think that will happen?

No, most likely not, but as a possibility, it exists, and it could neatly make every unexplained bit about about Project Lazarus (or even, potentially, why the reapers are so intent on retrieving Shepard) suddenly all come together into one colossal reveal, that'll make us all go, "Whoa, blimey, everything makes sense, now!"

I'm not absolutely convinced we've seen the end of the implications of Project Lazarus, but given how woefully inaccurate I've been at predicting the last episode of every series of Doctor Who since it came back in 2005, I'm probably completely wrong... lol

Fun to think about, though!

Oh, and as a side note, hot damn, I would love to get into a full-on debate with you, one day. Blimey, you'd keep me on my toes!

Modifié par johnbonhamatron, 09 avril 2011 - 08:36 .

[squee913]

Dave666 wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

Dave666 wrote...

Not arguing for or against this but just wanted to point out that by the time Shep hits the atmosphere (s)he is already unconscious so won't be 'flailing', ragdolled certainly, but not 'flailing'.  Nasa tested it and people lose consciousness after (roughly) 15 seconds.

I think what was meant was that the Shepcorpse would be tumbling about during the fall.  "Flail" just means "to move in the manner of a flail" (and usually figuratively).  It doesn't necessarily imply that the thing flailing must be a living person doing so, even though it is most often used in that way. Limp extremities whipping about chaotically during a fall fits the definition just fine as far as I'm concerned.

Hey, I don't have a problem with it either way tbh, I was just throwing it out there to make sure people weren't jumping to the wrong conclusion. Going by the cutscene Shep was already out cold by the time (s)he hit the atmosphere.

On a side note, regardless of what people may think of Smudboy, he certainly raises debate.  We're on what? Page 16 now?  Almost all of the threads I've seen where his name was mentioned were fairly large ones.

Great guys! Now I can't get the image of Shep falling while windmilling his/her arms the whole time!!! I don't give a damn if that is invented narrative or not! It would still be awesome!!

[johnbonhamatron]

squee913 wrote...

Great guys! Now I can't get the image of Shep falling while windmilling his/her arms the whole time!!! I don't give a damn if that is invented narrative or not! It would still be awesome!!

Ponders how evil I'm feeling... yeah, I'm feeling evil enough.

Imagine him doing the Zoidberg whoop on the way down, as well...

[squee913]

johnbonhamatron wrote...

squee913 wrote...

Great guys! Now I can't get the image of Shep falling while windmilling his/her arms the whole time!!! I don't give a damn if that is invented narrative or not! It would still be awesome!!

Ponders how evil I'm feeling... yeah, I'm feeling evil enough.

Imagine him doing the Zoidberg whoop on the way down, as well...

I think I just cried
And the Reapers actually think they stand a chance?

[Eudaemonium]

george martin wrote...

Even though Harbinger and no one else explained what the human reaper was for I figured they were going to use it on the Citadel with the Geth and the collectors, to finish Sovereign's original mission and use their best bet to get back to the Milky Way.

See, its odd. I've heard this line of reasoning a lot and the more I do the less convincing it actually sounds (perhaps because it just strikes me as a ridiculously stupid plan). Lately I'm more inclined to believe one of two things: 1) the Human Reaper was going to be used in an as-yet unknown plan, or 2) the Human Reaper was actually not going to be used in a plan at all. This is, of course, all supposition on my behalf, but I will elaborate:

In the ME universe, the Collectors are well known for exchanging technology for odd samples from the different races. Seeing as we know they are Reaper puppets, the logical deduction is that they were sampling the species for candidates for Reaperfication and/or Collector-replacements after the next galactic harvesting: which species were viable as a future slave race, which were viable for Reaperfication, and which should simply be eliminated.

Throughout the game, whenever Harbinger comments on your human squadmates it refers humans as a "viable possibility" - note, Harbinger states they are possibilities rather than certainties.(1) Humanity is the species which is the most viable possibility for Reaperfication. Half way through the game we learn that the Collectors are in-fact repurposed Protheans, and at the end when Shepard confronts the Human Reaper EDI makes the deduction that they attempted to create a Prothean Reaper and failed, and so engineered the Protheans into the Collectors. All we have here is EDI's admittedly tentative theory: we don't actually know if the Reapers attempted this at all. They may have simply aimed to repurpose them into slaves from the beginning. And even if they did we do not know exactly how the Prothean-Reaper failed - was it simply unable to be 'conceived' for whatever reason, or was it 'miscarried' before it could be fully formed? If it is the latter, it is possible the Collectors have actually attempted several different Reapers over the generations/centuries but they simply died before they were able to develop to a significant degree. But this is neither here nor there.

Why were the Collectors building a Human Reaper? The simplest answer may be that they just were. There was never a grand plan to use the Human Reaper in some grand scheme. Creating Reapers is, in fact, just what they are engineered to do: the Collectors sample potentially viable species until they find one that has the traits deemed worthy enough and the highest possibility of success and then begin construction of a new Reaper based on that viable species. There was no plan other than to begin creating the next generation of Reapers.

If we take it this way, ME2 was never about foiling a Reaper-return scheme like ME1 was. Instead, it was about discovering information on the enemy: Why do the Reapers harvest organic life and what do they do with it? What are (some of) their motives? The Reapers were coming anyway and nothing Shepard did in ME2 (except maybe Arrival) actually impacted that at all, but that was never really what ME2 was about to begin with.

But these are just my theories.

(1): Worth noting here is that we have no idea whether the species not on your sqad are also viable. For example, we have no idea if Batarians, Volus, Hanar, Elcor, etctera migth also be viable possibilities. Of those on your squad and going on Harbinger's remarks, it is possible the Drell would have been viable were it not for their numbers ("useless: insufficient numbers"), and that the Krogan were considered pre-genophage ("sterilized race: potential wasted."). This is, of course theorising.

[piemanz]

didymos1120 wrote...

Dave666 wrote...

Not arguing for or against this but just wanted to point out that by the time Shep hits the atmosphere (s)he is already unconscious so won't be 'flailing', ragdolled certainly, but not 'flailing'.  Nasa tested it and people lose consciousness after (roughly) 15 seconds.

I think what was meant was that the Shepcorpse would be tumbling about during the fall.  "Flail" just means "to move in the manner of a flail" (and usually figuratively).  It doesn't necessarily imply that the thing flailing must be a living person doing so, even though it is most often used in that way. Limp extremities whipping about chaotically during a fall fits the definition just fine as far as I'm concerned.

Yea, this is what i meant. I used the word 'flailing' because i couldn't think of anything more suitable.

johnbonhamatron wrote...

squee913 wrote...

Great
guys! Now I can't get the image of Shep falling while windmilling
his/her arms the whole time!!! I don't give a damn if that is invented
narrative or not! It would still be awesome!! [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/tongue.png[/smilie]

Ponders how evil I'm feeling... yeah, I'm feeling evil enough.

Imagine him doing the Zoidberg whoop on the way down, as well...

[smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/tongue.png[/smilie]

This is just cruel. You have no idea how hard it's going to be to not imagine this next time i see that scene

Modifié par piemanz, 09 avril 2011 - 11:05 .

[piemanz]

Eudaemonium wrote...

In the ME universe, the Collectors are well known for exchanging technology for odd samples from the different races. Seeing as we know they are Reaper puppets, the logical deduction is that they were sampling the species for candidates for Reaperfication and/or Collector-replacements after the next galactic harvesting: which species were viable as a future slave race, which were viable for Reaperfication, and which should simply be eliminated.

Throughout the game, whenever Harbinger comments on your human squadmates it refers humans as a "viable possibility" - note, Harbinger states they are possibilities rather than certainties.(1) Humanity is the species which is the most viable possibility for Reaperfication. Half way through the game we learn that the Collectors are in-fact repurposed Protheans, and at the end when Shepard confronts the Human Reaper EDI makes the deduction that they attempted to create a Prothean Reaper and failed, and so engineered the Protheans into the Collectors. All we have here is EDI's admittedly tentative theory: we don't actually know if the Reapers attempted this at all. They may have simply aimed to repurpose them into slaves from the beginning. And even if they did we do not know exactly how the Prothean-Reaper failed - was it simply unable to be 'conceived' for whatever reason, or was it 'miscarried' before it could be fully formed? If it is the latter, it is possible the Collectors have actually attempted several different Reapers over the generations/centuries but they simply died before they were able to develop to a significant degree. But this is neither here nor there.

Why were the Collectors building a Human Reaper? The simplest answer may be that they just were. There was never a grand plan to use the Human Reaper in some grand scheme. Creating Reapers is, in fact, just what they are engineered to do: the Collectors sample potentially viable species until they find one that has the traits deemed worthy enough and the highest possibility of success and then begin construction of a new Reaper based on that viable species. There was no plan other than to begin creating the next generation of Reapers.

If we take it this way, ME2 was never about foiling a Reaper-return scheme like ME1 was. Instead, it was about discovering information on the enemy: Why do the Reapers harvest organic life and what do they do with it? What are (some of) their motives? The Reapers were coming anyway and nothing Shepard did in ME2 (except maybe Arrival) actually impacted that at all, but that was never really what ME2 was about to begin with.

But these are just my theories.

(1): Worth noting here is that we have no idea whether the species not on your sqad are also viable. For example, we have no idea if Batarians, Volus, Hanar, Elcor, etctera migth also be viable possibilities. Of those on your squad and going on Harbinger's remarks, it is possible the Drell would have been viable were it not for their numbers ("useless: insufficient numbers"), and that the Krogan were considered pre-genophage ("sterilized race: potential wasted."). This is, of course theorising.

This is pretty much exactly what i think aswell. The only thing i will say is, ME2 was never about destroying the Reaper, it was always about stopping the collectors taking human colonies. Lets not forget that without the Collectors to build it, the human Reaper was not much of a threat either.

In my opinion the human Reaper was more of a plot twist or cliffhanger than it was a main goal of the game.

Modifié par piemanz, 09 avril 2011 - 11:13 .

[darth_lopez]

piemanz wrote...

darth_lopez wrote...

Gravity is unfortunately an almost non issue though ~7.25m/s (~9-25%[earths is ~9m/s]) still results in speeds of at least ~435m/s after 60 seconds. of falling inside it's gravitational pull. That doesn't take into acount initial velocity (which is knwon to be >0) and neglecting resistance. He's still coming down like a bat out of hell.

You can't just 'negelct' resistance as thats the biggest variable, sheps not going to be sky diving, he's more than like going to be flailing. Not to mention winds are another unknown, the angle of decent , the type of surface he landed on, i could go on and on.

Actually, Time is the biggest variable. That and his accelaration. Those determine exactly how fast he is going
And unless you would like to magically produce the number for resitance on that planet you have to neglect it in this case Never mind that we know  that in just basic physics(high school level stuff) Resistance is
considered neglegible in the Position, Velocity, and Acceleration
Formulas and calculations neglecting it are still amazingly accurate. With an atmosphere 25% less dense than earths(right?) that would likely be 25% less Resistance. The winds are another unknown the angle of decent and time, Though i'm 100% sure it took him more than 4 minutes to land, the sruface is known to be Icy Though. Ice is not a nice substance.  Imagine calling into a field of glass at just 435 m/s You would get sliced diced impaled and explode all over the surface you impacted on. AND we do know the accelartion due to gravity ~7.25 (25% less than earths.)

So considering there seems to be a nice 25% difference here. Shepards chances onf not going immediately super splat are what reduced by 25%? that's not a whole lot. And he's still coming in like a bat out of hell the moment you can tell me that 435 Meters Per Second(after 1 minute, shepard goes unconcious is 15 seconds according to the guy with the nasa Fact we could extend that by 25% if you'd like to be what? ~18.5 Seconds?) is not coming in like a bat out of hell is the moment you throw all forms of logic out the window

After 2 minutes he's falling at ~870 M/S
3 minutes : 1305 m/s 
4 minutes: 1740 M/s

Do you see the trend here?  He is coming in like a mofo. With 25% less atmosphere, and likely 25% less resisitance,  He's not going to be slowing down near fast enough to prevent an "explosive" impact.(never mind that at those speeds on earth Resistance and winds won't slow you down fast enough, or mars, jupiter, any planet that we know off.) If the winds are blowing hard enough maybe they'll slow him down somewhat but not enough to reduce his speed substantially after 4 Minutes. It's more likely they'll change his trajectory than affect his Speed.

Also another note on Shep and Resistance: His suit is nearly skin tight He's about as Aerodynamic as a Free Falling unconcious human being gets. He does not have flying squirel flaps like some sky divers use attached to his suit.

[darth_lopez]

Almostfaceman wrote...

darth_lopez wrote...
*snip*

It seems to me your perspective is "in my opinion, what remains of Shepard's body in the game after he falls to the planet can't happen in reality."  

First i don't think you completed your sentence Mostly because shepard's body is going to have remains realisticly they're just gonna be very hard to gather up Or determine if their really his. You also never specify what i don't think can happen to his remains in reality Simply that " what remains of shepard's body, in the game after he falls to the planet can't happen" You never specify what can't happen. If it's him falling We know that it happened If it's him having remains we know that he did. If it's him being revived? that was never the issue I liked the revival. I'm simply saying Airbreaks don't exist on his person nor did a parachute.

So to clearify it's simply that "Airbreaks don't exist on Infantry Armors, Shepard was flatter than well falt and likley shredded by Ice at high velocity, There is absolutely nothing, fiction or real Short of the hand of God, that could have slowed shepard down to the point that he did not Make paper thing cut up human corpse on impact" 

The reason I said:

Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth.

... is because my perspective is, "I'm reasoning within the reality of the story.  In the story's reality, Shepard's body plunges to the planets' surface and survives pretty much in one piece - not splatted on the ground."

Lost me how does "Little more than Meat in Tubes"(jacob) = intacted body? or even "Pretty Intact Body"? I don't even want to know what shepards corpse looked like immediately after impact. I'd reckon however a frozen pool of blood and splatter body parts Who knows how many body parts were even identifiable. Never mind the fact that Ice fractures  and can cut like glass.

So, within the reality of the story, I must deduce what happened to slow the body down, because in my mind, he will splat if he doesn't slow down - and clearly it is fact - within the reality of the story - that he doesn't splat.

Do show me this, because jacob clearly says "Meat in Tubes" or "Meat and Tubes" Either phrase certiantly does not imply anything near intact. Infact i'm starting to think you are the one contradicting the Lore here xD

  So, even though it is very improbable, it is possible that a parachute/air brake system existed in the suit and slowed Shepard down.  Therefore, within the reality of the story, this is one possibility that can be the truth.

When you can show me the Codex entry saying shep has airflaps in his suit I'll believe you until then the law of Practicality stands and While i have supporting evidence from military history your only defense is a weak supposition. Never mind that Bioware has already taken notes from Practicality in the technology employed in the game(Projectiles instead of lassers, Super Heated Mettals instead of beam weaponry(look at the thanix cannon entry stealth systems that reflect on modern research, Different types of ammunition (look at AP rounds, Shredder Rounds both are clearly based on existing ammunition, then you have cryo rounds(essentially a stun round that can have quite lethal side effects perfect for incapacitation), incidiary rounds(good for degrading cover, burning through armor and insiting fear in the enemy Things incidiaries have always been used for), Disruptor Rounds(practical for killing drones and disabling shields), and Warp rounds(simply biotically charged bullets)) Then theres the conversation with the admiral who inspects the normandy where i'm fairly certain he states out right it would've been more practical to build more fighters than to build the normandy SR-1. You can attempt to say that Practicality does not matter in ME but if you look at how technology is in ME Practicality, or attempted practicality, was on the forefront of BWs minds.

Look, our discussion is not "my opinion vs. practicality" it's "my opinion vs. your opinion on what is practical".  So it's still "opinion vs. opinion".  No offense, but if you can't admit that - then I'm not interested in carrying this on any further.  We can agree to disagree.

Really It's not opinion vs opinion. It's loose Supposition vs. Well Constructed argmument.  I've supported my claims with RealFacts as examples and in game facts. You can keep the delusion of shepard having air breaks, and i don't mean to sound offensive about this, if you want but there is no supporting evidence in the game lore or inside the "Law Of Practicality" for your claim. Where as i simply lack sufficient in game lore to totally debunk "air breaks I do however have the evidence in game to demonstrate that the laws of practicality are typically followed.

edit:spelling error

Modifié par darth_lopez, 10 avril 2011 - 02:37 .

[LPPrince]

darth_lopez wrote...

LPPrince wrote...

You guys just HAD to remind me of Aesieru, huh?

yes. yes we did.

"We" is a blanket statement. You are incorrect. I have proved this.

^My attempt at his past attitude, if he did indeed change.

If he DID change, FINALLY.

[didymos1120]

darth_lopez wrote...


Actually, Time is the biggest variable. That and his accelaration.

*snip bunch more largely irrelevant stuff*

No, see, here's the only thing that matters:  The Shepcorpse in Alchera's atmosphere has a terminal velocity (and the deeper into that atmosphere it goes, the smaller that terminal velocity gets). Shep would reach that minimum terminal velocity well before reaching the ground. The atmopshere of Alchera is more than thick enough for that. If you want to calculate something, calculate that (assume a perfect head-down, skydiver's position if you like).   Then we can talk about what happens on impact (which itself depends on a bunch of other factors: does the body hit a flat surface?  Or does it strike an angled one? What is the body's position on impact? Does the armor help absorb the shock?  By how much?  Is that surface bare rock?  Ice?  Or is there some nice, fluffy  methane/ammonia snow involved?  Etc.).  

Modifié par didymos1120, 10 avril 2011 - 02:43 .

[Almostfaceman]

darth_lopez wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...

darth_lopez wrote...
*snip*

It seems to me your perspective is "in my opinion, what remains of Shepard's body in the game after he falls to the planet can't happen in reality."  

The reason I said:

Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth.

... is because my perspective is, "I'm reasoning within the reality of the story.  In the story's reality, Shepard's body plunges to the planets' surface and survives pretty much in one piece - not splatted on the ground."

Lost me how does "Little more than Meat in Tubes"(jacob) = intacted body? or even "Pretty Intact Body"? I don't even want to know what shepards corpse looked like immediately after impact. I'd reckon however a frozen pool of blood and splatter body parts Who knows how many body parts were even identifiable. Never mind the fact that Ice fractures  and can cut like glass.

So, within the reality of the story, I must deduce what happened to slow the body down, because in my mind, he will splat if he doesn't slow down - and clearly it is fact - within the reality of the story - that he doesn't splat.

Do show me this, because jacob clearly says "Meat in Tubes" or "Meat and Tubes" Either phrase certiantly does not imply anything near intact. Infact i'm starting to think you are the one contradicting the Lore here xD

  So, even though it is very improbable, it is possible that a parachute/air brake system existed in the suit and slowed Shepard down.  Therefore, within the reality of the story, this is one possibility that can be the truth.

When you can show me the Codex entry saying shep has airflaps in his suit I'll believe you until then the law of Practicality stands and While i have supporting evidence from military history your only defense is a weak supposition. Never mind that Bioware has already taken notes from Practicality in the technology employed in the game(Projectiles instead of lassers, Super Heated Mettals instead of beam weaponry(look at the thanix cannon entry stealth systems that reflect on modern research, Different types of ammunition (look at AP rounds, Shredder Rounds both are clearly based on existing ammunition, then you have cryo rounds(essentially a stun round that can have quite lethal side effects perfect for incapacitation), incidiary rounds(good for degrading cover, burning through armor and insiting fear in the enemy Things incidiaries have always been used for), Disruptor Rounds(practical for killing drones and disabling shields), and Warp rounds(simply biotically charged bullets)) Then theres the conversation with the admiral who inspects the normandy where i'm fairly certain he states out right it would've been more practical to build more fighters than to build the normandy SR-1. You can attempt to say that Practicality does not matter in ME but if you look at how technology is in ME Practicality, or attempted practicality, was on the forefront of BWs minds.

Look, our discussion is not "my opinion vs. practicality" it's "my opinion vs. your opinion on what is practical".  So it's still "opinion vs. opinion".  No offense, but if you can't admit that - then I'm not interested in carrying this on any further.  We can agree to disagree.

Really It's not opinion vs opinion. It's loose Supposition vs. Well Constructed argmument.  I've supported my claims with Realistic Facts as examples and in game facts. You can keep the delusion of shepard having air breaks, and i don't mean to sound offensive about this, if you want but there is no supporting evidence in the game lore or inside the "Law Of Practicality" for your claim. Where as i simply lack sufficient in game lore to totally debunk "air breaks I do however have the evidence in game to demonstrate that the laws of practicality are typically followed.

Meat and tubes is more than the liquified mess that would result in an impact from that height and speed.  The remains would, in my opinion, be a stain, not meat.  The helmet would not be intact, nor would the pieces of armor found be as intact as they were.  I'm basing what would happen to the body on what I've seen happen to a body.  It is less than meat and tubes.

Um, they're both still speculation. Your guesses, "educated" or not, are still guesses. And easy with the "delusion" language, it borders on insult.  There's no call for that. Look, if you want to feel your opinion is more powerful speculation than mine and that you've won the internet - more power to ya.  I'm not trying to "win" I'm sharing my opinion. I've stated what I believe and why.  I'm not going to keep repeating myself.  It's odd that you can't let this go, when I've already said before if you don't accept my opinion we can agree to disagree.  

[piemanz]

darth_lopez wrote...


Actually, Time is the biggest variable. That and his accelaration. Those determine exactly how fast he is going
And unless you would like to magically produce the number for resitance on that planet you have to neglect it in this case Never mind that we know  that in just basic physics(high school level stuff) Resistance is
considered neglegible in the Position, Velocity, and Acceleration
Formulas and calculations neglecting it are still amazingly accurate. With an atmosphere 25% less dense than earths(right?) that would likely be 25% less Resistance. The winds are another unknown the angle of decent and time, Though i'm 100% sure it took him more than 4 minutes to land, the sruface is known to be Icy Though. Ice is not a nice substance.  Imagine calling into a field of glass at just 435 m/s You would get sliced diced impaled and explode all over the surface you impacted on. AND we do know the accelartion due to gravity ~7.25 (25% less than earths.)

So considering there seems to be a nice 25% difference here. Shepards chances onf not going immediately super splat are what reduced by 25%? that's not a whole lot. And he's still coming in like a bat out of hell the moment you can tell me that 435 Meters Per Second(after 1 minute, shepard goes unconcious is 15 seconds according to the guy with the nasa Fact we could extend that by 25% if you'd like to be what? ~18.5 Seconds?) is not coming in like a bat out of hell is the moment you throw all forms of logic out the window

After 2 minutes he's falling at ~870 M/S
3 minutes : 1305 m/s 
4 minutes: 1740 M/s

Do you see the trend here?  He is coming in like a mofo. With 25% less atmosphere, and likely 25% less resisitance,  He's not going to be slowing down near fast enough to prevent an "explosive" impact.(never mind that at those speeds on earth Resistance and winds won't slow you down fast enough, or mars, jupiter, any planet that we know off.) If the winds are blowing hard enough maybe they'll slow him down somewhat but not enough to reduce his speed substantially after 4 Minutes. It's more likely they'll change his trajectory than affect his Speed.

Also another note on Shep and Resistance: His suit is nearly skin tight He's about as Aerodynamic as a Free Falling unconcious human being gets. He does not have flying squirel flaps like some sky divers use attached to his suit.

didymos1120 wrote...

No, see, here's the only thing
that matters:  The Shepcorpse in Alchera's atmosphere has a terminal
velocity (and the deeper into that atmosphere it goes, the smaller that
terminal velocity gets). Shep would reach that minimum terminal
velocity well before reaching the ground. The atmopshere of Alchera is
more than thick enough for that. If you want to calculate something,
calculate that (assume a perfect head-down, skydiver's position if you
like).   Then we can talk about what happens on impact (which itself
depends on a bunch of other factors: does the body hit a flat surface? 
Or does it strike an angled one? What is the body's position on impact?
Does the armor help absorb the shock?  By how much?  Is that surface
bare rock?  Ice?  Or is there some nice, fluffy  methane/ammonia snow
involved?  Etc.).  

This.

Again, you can't just 'neglect' resistance.

By your calculations Shep would be hitting the ground at around 3800 mph, i'm sorry but thats way off.We've already had a guy (Joseph Kittenger) who as jumped from, for all intense an purposes, space.He jumped from 76000 feet down to 18000 feet and reached a top speed of 600 mph before hitting the lower atmosphere which would have slowed him significantly.

Since we can pretty much discount the planets Atmosephere to gravity ratio since both are -25% of earths then i think this is a fairly good comparison.

It's entirely possible shep could be travelling anywhere between 3-500 mph when he hits the surface.Thats a huge leap from 3800mph.

And then theres any number of other variables,  didymos said.

Again i'm not argueing that i know exactly what happened. I'm argueing that the evidence given in game is entirely possible, and all evidence suggests it is.

Modifié par piemanz, 10 avril 2011 - 03:21 .

[darth_lopez]

didymos1120 wrote...

darth_lopez wrote...


Actually, Time is the biggest variable. That and his accelaration.

*snip bunch more largely irrelevant stuff*

No, see, here's the only thing that matters:  The Shepcorpse in Alchera's atmosphere has a terminal velocity (and the deeper into that atmosphere it goes, the smaller that terminal velocity gets). Shep would reach that minimum terminal velocity well before reaching the ground. The atmopshere of Alchera is more than thick enough for that. If you want to calculate something, calculate that (assume a perfect head-down, skydiver's position if you like).   Then we can talk about what happens on impact (which itself depends on a bunch of other factors: does the body hit a flat surface?  Or does it strike an angled one? What is the body's position on impact? Does the armor help absorb the shock?  By how much?  Is that surface bare rock?  Ice?  Or is there some nice, fluffy  methane/ammonia snow involved?  Etc.).  

We do not know our A
Nor do we know shepards exact mass However Average Human Male mass is 70. kg
http://hypertextbook...singerman.shtml

Using that as our m and reducing earths Gravitational acceleration by 25%, along with and reducing the Density of earth's atmosphere(using Sea level[1.2k/g] because that was the first that i found and the only easy number it should be close enough to give us what were looking for though right?.) by 25% just like Alchera.  We would have
g= 7.31 m/s
p=.9 k/g
assmuing shepard is falling like a Person in the upright position
Drag Coefficient= 1.0 to 1.3
http://www.engineeri...ient-d_627.html


So This is our Equation So far.



Now we could always take A to be equal to the Surface area of skin which is 25 square feet but i'm not sure that's what they mean by projected area.
http://www.eszlinger...nbodyfacts.html

However if we do that We get 5.915 ( i would assume m/s) as our terminal velocity


(assuming a similar atmospheric composition not sure thats necessary though)

Modifié par darth_lopez, 10 avril 2011 - 03:40 .

[squee913]

darth_lopez wrote...

piemanz wrote...

darth_lopez wrote...

Gravity is unfortunately an almost non issue though ~7.25m/s (~9-25%[earths is ~9m/s]) still results in speeds of at least ~435m/s after 60 seconds. of falling inside it's gravitational pull. That doesn't take into acount initial velocity (which is knwon to be >0) and neglecting resistance. He's still coming down like a bat out of hell.

You can't just 'negelct' resistance as thats the biggest variable, sheps not going to be sky diving, he's more than like going to be flailing. Not to mention winds are another unknown, the angle of decent , the type of surface he landed on, i could go on and on.

Actually, Time is the biggest variable. That and his accelaration. Those determine exactly how fast he is going
And unless you would like to magically produce the number for resitance on that planet you have to neglect it in this case Never mind that we know  that in just basic physics(high school level stuff) Resistance is
considered neglegible in the Position, Velocity, and Acceleration
Formulas and calculations neglecting it are still amazingly accurate. With an atmosphere 25% less dense than earths(right?) that would likely be 25% less Resistance. The winds are another unknown the angle of decent and time, Though i'm 100% sure it took him more than 4 minutes to land, the sruface is known to be Icy Though. Ice is not a nice substance.  Imagine calling into a field of glass at just 435 m/s You would get sliced diced impaled and explode all over the surface you impacted on. AND we do know the accelartion due to gravity ~7.25 (25% less than earths.)

So considering there seems to be a nice 25% difference here. Shepards chances onf not going immediately super splat are what reduced by 25%? that's not a whole lot. And he's still coming in like a bat out of hell the moment you can tell me that 435 Meters Per Second(after 1 minute, shepard goes unconcious is 15 seconds according to the guy with the nasa Fact we could extend that by 25% if you'd like to be what? ~18.5 Seconds?) is not coming in like a bat out of hell is the moment you throw all forms of logic out the window

After 2 minutes he's falling at ~870 M/S
3 minutes : 1305 m/s 
4 minutes: 1740 M/s

I'm no physicist, but could you explain to me why Shepard would continue to accelerate PAST terminal velocity? We have no way of knowing how fast he was traveling when he was blown out of the ship. Still, let's say he was traveling faster than terminal velocity (if it is 25% less than earth it would be 67.5 meters per second) If so the drag of the atmosphere would compensate for any acceleration caused by gravity. On earth, Gravity can not accelerate a falling body past terminal velocity. We also know that after the initial explosion, Shep would not accelerate at all unless acted upon by some other force. If something is already traveling beyond terminal velocity, it is my understanding that gravity can not make it go any faster since it is already falling faster than gravity can pull it. So, if he was traveling faster than terminal velocity this:

After 2 minutes he's falling at ~870 M/S
3 minutes : 1305 m/s
4 minutes: 1740 M/s

Would actually be more like this :
After 2 minutes he's falling at ~ 870 M/S
3 minutes : 870 m/s
4 minutes: 870 M/s

If he was falling slower than Terminal velocity it would look like this:
After 2 minutes he's falling at ~ 67.5 m/s
3 minutes : 67.5 m/s
4 minutes: 67.5 M/s

And that's not even counting how much wind drag would slow him down. The atmosphere may be different and thus affect the numbers a little, but not a lot.

I'm not even sure where you got 435 m/s in the first place. Was this how fast the explosion threw him? How can you know? How big was the explosion? How much force did it have?

Again, I am not saying that Shepard's fall was not hard to swallow, but at least get your facts straight.

[darth_lopez]

squee913 wrote...

darth_lopez wrote...

piemanz wrote...

darth_lopez wrote...

Gravity is unfortunately an almost non issue though ~7.25m/s (~9-25%[earths is ~9m/s]) still results in speeds of at least ~435m/s after 60 seconds. of falling inside it's gravitational pull. That doesn't take into acount initial velocity (which is knwon to be >0) and neglecting resistance. He's still coming down like a bat out of hell.

You can't just 'negelct' resistance as thats the biggest variable, sheps not going to be sky diving, he's more than like going to be flailing. Not to mention winds are another unknown, the angle of decent , the type of surface he landed on, i could go on and on.

Actually, Time is the biggest variable. That and his accelaration. Those determine exactly how fast he is going
And unless you would like to magically produce the number for resitance on that planet you have to neglect it in this case Never mind that we know  that in just basic physics(high school level stuff) Resistance is
considered neglegible in the Position, Velocity, and Acceleration
Formulas and calculations neglecting it are still amazingly accurate. With an atmosphere 25% less dense than earths(right?) that would likely be 25% less Resistance. The winds are another unknown the angle of decent and time, Though i'm 100% sure it took him more than 4 minutes to land, the sruface is known to be Icy Though. Ice is not a nice substance.  Imagine calling into a field of glass at just 435 m/s You would get sliced diced impaled and explode all over the surface you impacted on. AND we do know the accelartion due to gravity ~7.25 (25% less than earths.)

So considering there seems to be a nice 25% difference here. Shepards chances onf not going immediately super splat are what reduced by 25%? that's not a whole lot. And he's still coming in like a bat out of hell the moment you can tell me that 435 Meters Per Second(after 1 minute, shepard goes unconcious is 15 seconds according to the guy with the nasa Fact we could extend that by 25% if you'd like to be what? ~18.5 Seconds?) is not coming in like a bat out of hell is the moment you throw all forms of logic out the window

After 2 minutes he's falling at ~870 M/S
3 minutes : 1305 m/s 
4 minutes: 1740 M/s

I'm no physicist, but could you explain to me why Shepard would continue to accelerate PAST terminal velocity?

I'm not a physicist either I was making statements off of what i know from Calc 1-3. I have little to no experience calculating Terminal Velocity I was also not aware it was a factor But i'm pretty sure i adressed it.


also drag is counted into terminal velocity i'm pretty sure after looking at it for like 5 minutes.

Squee i porbably did my math wrong i haven't done basic math regarding speed and velecotiy in roughly a year XD When i go back over it it was actually Fallen  435 meters in 60 seconds My Bad Which would then be 435 Meters per minute. Wich is still flying like a bat outta hell

Also if you go back over and read my posts i'm sure you'll see the error i made :x i won't point it out because it should be really obvious for someone so quick to correct me

Modifié par darth_lopez, 10 avril 2011 - 03:23 .

[piemanz]

darth_lopez wrote...

squee913 wrote...

darth_lopez wrote...

piemanz wrote...

darth_lopez wrote...

Gravity is unfortunately an almost non issue though ~7.25m/s (~9-25%[earths is ~9m/s]) still results in speeds of at least ~435m/s after 60 seconds. of falling inside it's gravitational pull. That doesn't take into acount initial velocity (which is knwon to be >0) and neglecting resistance. He's still coming down like a bat out of hell.

You can't just 'negelct' resistance as thats the biggest variable, sheps not going to be sky diving, he's more than like going to be flailing. Not to mention winds are another unknown, the angle of decent , the type of surface he landed on, i could go on and on.

Actually, Time is the biggest variable. That and his accelaration. Those determine exactly how fast he is going
And unless you would like to magically produce the number for resitance on that planet you have to neglect it in this case Never mind that we know  that in just basic physics(high school level stuff) Resistance is
considered neglegible in the Position, Velocity, and Acceleration
Formulas and calculations neglecting it are still amazingly accurate. With an atmosphere 25% less dense than earths(right?) that would likely be 25% less Resistance. The winds are another unknown the angle of decent and time, Though i'm 100% sure it took him more than 4 minutes to land, the sruface is known to be Icy Though. Ice is not a nice substance.  Imagine calling into a field of glass at just 435 m/s You would get sliced diced impaled and explode all over the surface you impacted on. AND we do know the accelartion due to gravity ~7.25 (25% less than earths.)

So considering there seems to be a nice 25% difference here. Shepards chances onf not going immediately super splat are what reduced by 25%? that's not a whole lot. And he's still coming in like a bat out of hell the moment you can tell me that 435 Meters Per Second(after 1 minute, shepard goes unconcious is 15 seconds according to the guy with the nasa Fact we could extend that by 25% if you'd like to be what? ~18.5 Seconds?) is not coming in like a bat out of hell is the moment you throw all forms of logic out the window

After 2 minutes he's falling at ~870 M/S
3 minutes : 1305 m/s 
4 minutes: 1740 M/s

I'm no physicist, but could you explain to me why Shepard would continue to accelerate PAST terminal velocity?

I'm not a physicist either I was making statements off of what i know from Calc 1-3. I have little to no experience calculating Terminal Velocity I was also not aware it was a factor But i'm pretty sure i adressed it.


also drag is counted into terminal velocity i'm pretty sure after looking at it for like 5 minutes.

Squee i porbably did my math wrong i haven't done basic math regarding speed and velecotiy in roughly a year XD When i go back over it it was actually Fallen  435 meters in 60 seconds My Bad Which would then be 435 Meters per minute. Wich is still flying like a bat outta hell

Also if you go back over and read my posts i'm sure you'll see the error i made :x i won't point it out because it should be really obvious for someone so quick to correct me

I don't think anybodys argueing he's not going like a bat out of hell. But, bat out of hell doesn't necesarilly mean splat.

Modifié par piemanz, 10 avril 2011 - 03:30 .