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[piemanz]

Double post.

Modifié par piemanz, 10 avril 2011 - 03:29 .

[darth_lopez]

piemanz wrote...


I don't think anybodys argueing he's not going like a bat out of hell. but, bat out of hell doesn't necesarilly mean splat.

I'm pretty sure in this case it does xD though thats the problem. Besides him going splat matches with "Meat in Tubes" I mean jeez it's not like i'm going ludicrously into this either >.> i could be running calculations to prove he burnt up in atmo.

[piemanz]

darth_lopez wrote...

piemanz wrote...


I don't think anybodys argueing he's not going like a bat out of hell. but, bat out of hell doesn't necesarilly mean splat.

I'm pretty sure in this case it does xD though thats the problem. Besides him going splat matches with "Meat in Tubes" I mean jeez it's not like i'm going ludicrously into this either >.> i could be running calculations to prove he burnt up in atmo.

Be my guest.

[darth_lopez]

piemanz wrote...

darth_lopez wrote...

piemanz wrote...


I don't think anybodys argueing he's not going like a bat out of hell. but, bat out of hell doesn't necesarilly mean splat.

I'm pretty sure in this case it does xD though thats the problem. Besides him going splat matches with "Meat in Tubes" I mean jeez it's not like i'm going ludicrously into this either >.> i could be running calculations to prove he burnt up in atmo.

Be my guest.

I don't want to that requires me too look way too many things up and i'm lazy xD, There is a immensly high probability he went splat, and didn't have a chute or airbreaks. That's all i'm saying lets leave it at that.

[squee913]

darth_lopez wrote...

piemanz wrote...


I don't think anybodys argueing he's not going like a bat out of hell. but, bat out of hell doesn't necesarilly mean splat.

I'm pretty sure in this case it does xD though thats the problem. Besides him going splat matches with "Meat in Tubes" I mean jeez it's not like i'm going ludicrously into this either >.> i could be running calculations to prove he burnt up in atmo.

Can we? (I'm not asking you to run them, just do we actual have the information needed) We have absolutely no way of knowing how fast Shep was flung out of the ship without being able to calculate the force of the blast that did it. We also have no way of knowing how fast the Normandy was going since they could be going 2 m/p or 20,000 m/p and it would look the same. We have no way to judge the angle at which he was flung from the Normandy (in other words, how much of Shepard's relative momentum in relation to the Normandy was counteracted by the blast) In fact the only thing you can use to gauge his speed is how fast he grows smaller in relation to the camera. I suppose there is something out there that could calculate that but if the camera's perspective was stationary, than Shep was drifting away and a pretty slow speed. (of course there is no way to know the camera's perspective was stationary)

I am honestly asking if I am missing something here, and if I'm corrected fantastic! But, I don't think there is any scientific way to even get a rough guess as to how fast he was traveling.

Also has anyone considered the atmosphere we saw was not from fast atmospheric entry? Shep was right next to an explosion and his armor was probably heated up somewhat on the outside. What we saw could have simply been the cold gasses reacting to the heat source passing through them. I honestly do not know if this is plausible, simply a question I wanted to ask.

[piemanz]

darth_lopez wrote...

I don't want to that requires me too look way too many things up and i'm lazy xD, There is a immensly high probability he went splat, and didn't have a chute or airbreaks. That's all i'm saying lets leave it at that.

Fine, but remember,  you're the one who was claiming it's impossible and now downgraded it to improbable. If your argument is "Theres no way Shep could survive intact", then you better be prepared to prove it's impossible.

[squee913]

darth_lopez wrote...

I'm pretty sure in this case it does xD though thats the problem. Besides him going splat matches with "Meat in Tubes" I mean jeez it's not like i'm going ludicrously into this either >.> i could be running calculations to prove he burnt up in atmo.

Again, how do we know this? If we can not say for sure that he was traveling faster than terminal velocity and others have survived extreme falls at terminal velocity than it is possible for his body to do it as well. If there is even a small percentage chance that it was possible, than it can't be a plot hole, just one hell of a lucky break for Shep.

Modifié par squee913, 10 avril 2011 - 03:51 .

[Almostfaceman]

squee913 wrote...

darth_lopez wrote...

piemanz wrote...


I don't think anybodys argueing he's not going like a bat out of hell. but, bat out of hell doesn't necesarilly mean splat.

I'm pretty sure in this case it does xD though thats the problem. Besides him going splat matches with "Meat in Tubes" I mean jeez it's not like i'm going ludicrously into this either >.> i could be running calculations to prove he burnt up in atmo.

Can we? (I'm not asking you to run them, just do we actual have the information needed) We have absolutely no way of knowing how fast Shep was flung out of the ship without being able to calculate the force of the blast that did it. We also have no way of knowing how fast the Normandy was going since they could be going 2 m/p or 20,000 m/p and it would look the same. We have no way to judge the angle at which he was flung from the Normandy (in other words, how much of Shepard's relative momentum in relation to the Normandy was counteracted by the blast) In fact the only thing you can use to gauge his speed is how fast he grows smaller in relation to the camera. I suppose there is something out there that could calculate that but if the camera's perspective was stationary, than Shep was drifting away and a pretty slow speed. (of course there is no way to know the camera's perspective was stationary)

I am honestly asking if I am missing something here, and if I'm corrected fantastic! But, I don't think there is any scientific way to even get a rough guess as to how fast he was traveling.

Also has anyone considered the atmosphere we saw was not from fast atmospheric entry? Shep was right next to an explosion and his armor was probably heated up somewhat on the outside. What we saw could have simply been the cold gasses reacting to the heat source passing through them. I honestly do not know if this is plausible, simply a question I wanted to ask.

@darth_lopez - and THIS is why I said it's all ultimately speculation.
I have no problem with someone disagreeing with me - I have a problem when they start telling me their opinion is fact (in situations like this).  This message board is full of people who think their opinion is equivalent to the Word of God handed down by Moses on the tablets - and I like pointing out how silly they are.

[darth_lopez]

squee913 wrote...

darth_lopez wrote...

piemanz wrote...


I don't think anybodys argueing he's not going like a bat out of hell. but, bat out of hell doesn't necesarilly mean splat.

I'm pretty sure in this case it does xD though thats the problem. Besides him going splat matches with "Meat in Tubes" I mean jeez it's not like i'm going ludicrously into this either >.> i could be running calculations to prove he burnt up in atmo.

Can we? (I'm not asking you to run them, just do we actual have the information needed) We have absolutely no way of knowing how fast Shep was flung out of the ship without being able to calculate the force of the blast that did it. We also have no way of knowing how fast the Normandy was going since they could be going 2 m/p or 20,000 m/p and it would look the same. We have no way to judge the angle at which he was flung from the Normandy (in other words, how much of Shepard's relative momentum in relation to the Normandy was counteracted by the blast) In fact the only thing you can use to gauge his speed is how fast he grows smaller in relation to the camera. I suppose there is something out there that could calculate that but if the camera's perspective was stationary, than Shep was drifting away and a pretty slow speed. (of course there is no way to know the camera's perspective was stationary)

Please go back and read my posts -.- i've said this is taking all of his initial velocity to Equal zero and Apparently V init. Doesn't matter when calculating Terminal Velocity.  (which i'm almost certain i did wrong) What in god's name is m/p? I've never seen that before. I don't think angle of decent matters too much when you're simply churning out the Posible numbers I'm not writing a thesis paper i'm just Attempting to explain that There is no real way somethign heading as fast as shepard did  would land intact.

His terminal velocity, if i did it right, is again 5.915 m/s(i think it's m/s) (infact i'm about 100% sure i did Terminal Velocity wrong.)(i also don't know how i'm suppposed to apply it to the standard velocity equation)

To calculate just velocity you would take the derivative of the standard position function ( .5gT^2+V.init.T+S.init.=Position) P'=gT+V. init= Velocity  with T as time, and g as gravitational acceleration(in other cases it would simply be acceleration say you have a position function of a car = 5t^3+vt+s velocity of that car is (3*5)t^2+v= Velocity of car). this is really basic math here. Using Alcheras gravitational acceleration (assumed to be 7.31 which is apprx 25% of earths ) After 5 minutes (300 seconds) we have (7.31)(300)+0=Velocity at 5 minutes (in meters per second) You always Have gravitational Acceleration to apply to an object that is falling always. 9I am 150% i did this right or strip my  calculus credits from me as the Position Velocity and Acceleration functions are probably the sinlge most used examples in calc one when you firs learn to derive)

I am honestly asking if I am missing something here, and if I'm corrected fantastic! But, I don't think there is any scientific way to even get a rough guess as to how fast he was traveling.

I'm pretty sure you're missing my math then...cause that's probably about it. Infact i'm teribly suprised i actually did all that. and that i'm still talking about it.  My nerdinigity has officially been given up.

Also has anyone considered the atmosphere we saw was not from fast atmospheric entry?

He doesn't need to enter Atmosphere for gravitational acceleration to begin affecting him.

[squee913]

[quote]darth_lopez wrote...

[quote]squee913 wrote...

[quote]darth_lopez wrote...

[quote]piemanz wrote...


I don't think anybodys argueing he's not going like a bat out of hell. but, bat out of hell doesn't necesarilly mean splat.

[/quote]

I'm pretty sure in this case it does xD though thats the problem. Besides him going splat matches with "Meat in Tubes" I mean jeez it's not like i'm going ludicrously into this either >.> i could be running calculations to prove he burnt up in atmo.

[/quote]

Can we? (I'm not asking you to run them, just do we actual have the information needed) We have absolutely no way of knowing how fast Shep was flung out of the ship without being able to calculate the force of the blast that did it. We also have no way of knowing how fast the Normandy was going since they could be going 2 m/p or 20,000 m/p and it would look the same. We have no way to judge the angle at which he was flung from the Normandy (in other words, how much of Shepard's relative momentum in relation to the Normandy was counteracted by the blast) In fact the only thing you can use to gauge his speed is how fast he grows smaller in relation to the camera. I suppose there is something out there that could calculate that but if the camera's perspective was stationary, than Shep was drifting away and a pretty slow speed. (of course there is no way to know the camera's perspective was stationary)
[/quote]

Please go back and read my posts -.- i've said this is taking all of his initial velocity to Equal zero and Apparently V init. Doesn't matter when calculating Terminal Velocity.  (which i'm almost certain i did wrong) What in god's name is m/p? I've never seen that before. I don't think angle of decent matters too much when you're simply churning out the Posible numbers I'm not writing a thesis paper i'm just Attempting to explain that There is no real way somethign heading as fast as shepard did  would land intact.

His terminal velocity, if i did it right, is again 5.915 m/s(i think it's m/s) (infact i'm about 100% sure i did Terminal Velocity wrong.)(i also don't know how i'm suppposed to apply it to the standard velocity equation)

To calculate just velocity you would take the derivative of the standard position function ( .5gT^2+V.init.T+S.init.=Position) P'=gT+V. init= Velocity  with T as time, and g as gravitational acceleration(in other cases it would simply be acceleration say you have a position function of a car = 5t^3+vt+s velocity of that car is (3*5)t^2+v= Velocity of car). this is really basic math here. Using Alcheras gravitational acceleration (assumed to be 7.31 which is apprx 25% of earths ) After 5 minutes (300 seconds) we have (7.31)(300)+0=Velocity at 5 minutes (in meters per second) You always Have gravitational Acceleration to apply to an object that is falling always. 9I am 150% i did this right or strip my  calculus credits from me as the Position Velocity and Acceleration functions are probably the sinlge most used examples in calc one when you firs learn to derive) [/quote]

Ummmm... that entire post was talking about you running calculations of burning up in atmo... It had nothing to do with terminal velocity. And just so we are clear, I was not stating you could not run calculations, I simply did not know how and was asking. Second, if you assumed his initial velocity was 0 how in the word would he ever accelerate past terminal velocity? All the math in the world does not get past the gravity pull to drag ratio that determines terminal velocity. Yes, gravity would continue to accelerate you if there was no drag, but there is. Thus, the limit to the speed at which gravity can accelerate one traveling though an atmosphere.

[quote]
Also has anyone considered the atmosphere we saw was not from fast atmospheric entry?
[/quote]

He doesn't need to enter Atmosphere for gravitational acceleration to begin affecting him.

[/quote]


Again, I was not talking about Terminal velocity but was referring to the argument many people make that we see him burn up in atmo

and m/p was supposed to be mph (miles per hour) I'd been doing m/s so much, my brain could not keep up with the switch 

[piemanz]

darth_lopez wrote...



Please go back and read my posts -.- i've said this is taking all of his initial velocity to Equal zero and Apparently V init. Doesn't matter when calculating Terminal Velocity.  (which i'm almost certain i did wrong) What in god's name is m/p? I've never seen that before. I don't think angle of decent matters too much when you're simply churning out the Posible numbers I'm not writing a thesis paper i'm just Attempting to explain that There is no real way somethign heading as fast as shepard did  would land intact.

His terminal velocity, if i did it right, is again 5.915 m/s(i think it's m/s) (infact i'm about 100% sure i did Terminal Velocity wrong.)(i also don't know how i'm suppposed to apply it to the standard velocity equation)

To calculate just velocity you would take the derivative of the standard position function ( .5gT^2+V.init.T+S.init.=Position) P'=gT+V. init= Velocity  with T as time, and g as gravitational acceleration(in other cases it would simply be acceleration say you have a position function of a car = 5t^3+vt+s velocity of that car is (3*5)t^2+v= Velocity of car). this is really basic math here. Using Alcheras gravitational acceleration (assumed to be 7.31 which is apprx 25% of earths ) After 5 minutes (300 seconds) we have (7.31)(300)+0=Velocity at 5 minutes (in meters per second) You always Have gravitational Acceleration to apply to an object that is falling always. 9I am 150% i did this right or strip my  calculus credits from me as the Position Velocity and Acceleration functions are probably the sinlge most used examples in calc one when you firs learn to derive)

The thing you're not getting here is that once he reaches Terminal velocity he's not getting any faster. Your calculations only work if you assume he's accelerating at terminal velocity, which is impossible.

It's also worth noting that the teriminal velocity of an average humam falling to earth through the lower atmosphere is around 120-200 mph.

Modifié par piemanz, 10 avril 2011 - 04:46 .

[darth_lopez]

squee913 wrote...

darth_lopez wrote...

I'm pretty sure in this case it does xD though thats the problem. Besides him going splat matches with "Meat in Tubes" I mean jeez it's not like i'm going ludicrously into this either >.> i could be running calculations to prove he burnt up in atmo.

Again, how do we know this? If we can not say for sure that he was traveling faster than terminal velocity and others have survived extreme falls at terminal velocity than it is possible for his body to do it as well. If there is even a small percentage chance that it was possible, than it can't be a plot hole, just one hell of a lucky break for Shep.

-.- i never said he was traveling faster than his terminal velocity. GO to the the previous page Use your eyes READ. i tried calculating Terminal veleocity I'm pretty sure it's wrong The equations on Wikipedia by all means go try figuring it out yourself.

I've also given you the position, and velocity formulas (accelerationg in this case should be equal to simple g)

I'd say we know for sure he was heading too fast to land remotely intact. If i knew his Initial Position and his initial velocity i could even estimate accurately how many bloody seconds he fell for.

We have pletny of information and if you can't see that a that any living creature heading at a velocity = 7.31t+V init. (t being time messured in seconds) at any t more than 120 would be heading at incredibly fast speeds and would definately die on impact There aren't many things that don't break apart on impact at 877m/s(final velocity of shep if he hits the ground after 2 seconds)

Just so we're clear on the terminal velocity thing, because i know i can't calculate it right, lets estimate

Based on wind resistance, for example, the terminal velocity of a skydiver in a belly to earth free-fall position is about 195 km/h (122 mph or 55 m/s)

-wikipedia

Lets reduce 195km/h by 25% which is ~146.05km/h(just like we did with g and desnisty)  lets say, for the sake of argument, This is shepards best estimated Terminal velocity right now(cuase i bothced my attempt to find it)
at 4 seconds shepard is heading at 29.24 m/s or 105.264 km/h if you convert up, at 5 seconds he hits 131.58km/h and at 5.5seconds he is traveling at 144.738km/h He obviously hits the estimated terminal velocity between 5.5 seconds and 6 seconds. And is now officially traveling like a bat out of hell.

You tell me What object that hits that any surface that fast is going to be intact?

Also i used the smaller of too numbers to estimate the terminal velocity in this manner, giving shep the benefit of the doubt still becoming pretty damn flat at ~89mp/h

Modifié par darth_lopez, 10 avril 2011 - 05:14 .

[darth_lopez]

piemanz wrote...

darth_lopez wrote...



Please go back and read my posts -.- i've said this is taking all of his initial velocity to Equal zero and Apparently V init. Doesn't matter when calculating Terminal Velocity.  (which i'm almost certain i did wrong) What in god's name is m/p? I've never seen that before. I don't think angle of decent matters too much when you're simply churning out the Posible numbers I'm not writing a thesis paper i'm just Attempting to explain that There is no real way somethign heading as fast as shepard did  would land intact.

His terminal velocity, if i did it right, is again 5.915 m/s(i think it's m/s) (infact i'm about 100% sure i did Terminal Velocity wrong.)(i also don't know how i'm suppposed to apply it to the standard velocity equation)

To calculate just velocity you would take the derivative of the standard position function ( .5gT^2+V.init.T+S.init.=Position) P'=gT+V. init= Velocity  with T as time, and g as gravitational acceleration(in other cases it would simply be acceleration say you have a position function of a car = 5t^3+vt+s velocity of that car is (3*5)t^2+v= Velocity of car). this is really basic math here. Using Alcheras gravitational acceleration (assumed to be 7.31 which is apprx 25% of earths ) After 5 minutes (300 seconds) we have (7.31)(300)+0=Velocity at 5 minutes (in meters per second) You always Have gravitational Acceleration to apply to an object that is falling always. 9I am 150% i did this right or strip my  calculus credits from me as the Position Velocity and Acceleration functions are probably the sinlge most used examples in calc one when you firs learn to derive)

The thing you're not getting here is that once he reaches Terminal velocity he's not getting any faster. Your calculations only work if you assume he's accelerating at terminal velocity, which is impossible.

It's also worth noting that the teriminal velocity of an average humam falling to earth through the lower atmosphere is around 120-200 mph.

according to wikipedia, 195km/h for a ski diver in belly to earth fre fall possition. He's accelerating by Gravitational Acceleration. And if we tried to estimate terminal velocity for him, probably more accurately by reducing this number by 25% (just like with desnity of atmosphere and gravity) ( because i am 100% certain my calculation for it is wrong)  He'll hit Term. after about 5.5 seconds. Don't forget he likely goes unconcious after 15seconds (Guy with Nasa Fact) and no longer has any control over his velocity and direction.

The thing you are also not getting here si that Terminal velocity on a planet that's has 25% less atmospheric desnisty than earth With 25% less gravity than earth Isn't  going to have a Terminal velocity of   .002 km/h AkA:fluffy magical air bunny cushion speed. Nor will it be likely to have a terminal velocity of 1k/mh AKA Walking while drunk speed. nor is it likely to have a terminal velocity of 3 km/h AKA walking. Nor 9km/h (very slow car) nor 50km/h 70km/h (both of wich can be lethal speeds. look at car accidents While this isn't free fall it is certaintly a good place to see how certaint velocities affect bodies)

Also this isn't even factoring in the known icy surface of the planet. and upon checking the ME wiki it's 15% off gravitationally from Earth, there is no information on Atmospheric density though. it does however have a 17% change in pressure( i took a comment earlier about pressure as density. my bad again)
http://masseffect.wi...om/wiki/Alchera
So all estimates are off by 10% on gravity(It has it's gravity is 85% of earths (Earths gravity -15%) new g is 8.34) and Atmospheric Denisty is presently unknown

Modifié par darth_lopez, 10 avril 2011 - 05:28 .

[squee913]

squee913 wrote...

darth_lopez wrote...

I'm pretty sure in this case it does xD though thats the problem. Besides him going splat matches with "Meat in Tubes" I mean jeez it's not like i'm going ludicrously into this either >.> i could be running calculations to prove he burnt up in atmo.

Again, how do we know this? If we can not say for sure that he was traveling faster than terminal velocity and others have survived extreme falls at terminal velocity than it is possible for his body to do it as well. If there is even a small percentage chance that it was possible, than it can't be a plot hole, just one hell of a lucky break for Shep.

darth_lopez wrote...
-.- i never said he was traveling faster than his terminal velocity. GO to the the previous page Use your eyes READ. i tried calculating Terminal veleocity I'm pretty sure it's wrong The equations on Wikipedia by all means go try figuring it out yourself.

I did read it.

Actually, Time is the biggest variable. That and his accelaration. Those determine exactly how fast he is going
And
unless you would like to magically produce the number for resitance on
that planet you have to neglect it in this case Never mind that we know 
that in just basic physics(high school level stuff) Resistance is
considered neglegible in the Position, Velocity, and Acceleration
Formulas
and calculations neglecting it are still amazingly accurate. With an
atmosphere 25% less dense than earths(right?) that would likely be 25%
less Resistance. The winds are another unknown the angle of decent and
time, Though i'm 100% sure it took him more than 4 minutes to land, the
sruface is known to be Icy Though. Ice is not a nice substance.  Imagine
calling into a field of glass at just 435 m/s You would get sliced
diced impaled and explode all over the surface you impacted on. AND we
do know the accelartion due to gravity ~7.25 (25% less than earths.)

So
considering there seems to be a nice 25% difference here. Shepards
chances onf not going immediately super splat are what reduced by 25%?
that's not a whole lot. And he's still coming in like a bat out of hell
the moment you can tell me that 435 Meters Per Second(after
1 minute, shepard goes unconcious is 15 seconds according to the guy
with the nasa Fact we could extend that by 25% if you'd like to be what?
~18.5 Seconds?) is not coming in like a bat out of hell is the moment
you throw all forms of logic out the window

After 2 minutes he's falling at ~870 M/S
3 minutes : 1305 m/s 
4 minutes: 1740 M/s

Do
you see the trend here?  He is coming in like a mofo. With 25% less
atmosphere, and likely 25% less resisitance,  He's not going to be
slowing down near fast enough to prevent an "explosive" impact.(never
mind that at those speeds on earth Resistance and winds won't slow you
down fast enough, or mars, jupiter, any planet that we know off.) If the
winds are blowing hard enough maybe they'll slow him down somewhat but
not enough to reduce his speed substantially after 4 Minutes. It's more likely they'll change his trajectory than affect his Speed.

Can you show me where you even mention terminal velocity and that he would not accelerate beyond it? According to this post he would just continue to gain speed until he went splat. This is not a problem with calculations but a problem of ignoring terminal velocity all together. Unless you are saying that because we don't know the resistance of the atmosphere we should just ignore it and call it negligible, which is an even bigger error than just forgetting about it. This is your post. You never said the words, "He will not accelerate beyond terminal velocity". that is true. But it was most definitely was the conclusion of your argument.

Lets reduce 195km/h by 25% which is ~146.05km/h(just like we did with g and desnisty)  lets say, for the sake of argument, This is shepards best estimated Terminal velocity right now(cuase i bothced my attempt to find it)
at 4 seconds shepard is heading at 29.24 m/s or 105.264 km/h if you convert up, at 5 seconds he hits 131.58km/h and at 5.5seconds he is traveling at 144.738km/h He obviously hits the estimated terminal velocity between 5.5 seconds and 6 seconds. And is now officially traveling like a bat out of hell.

You tell me What object that hits that any surface that fast is going to be intact?

Here are 5 of them.
http://www.popularme...stories/4344037

And before anyone says that Shepard fell form higher altitude, this is from the article.

Dr. Seth Izenberg, a trauma specialist at Legacy Emmanuel Hospital in
Portland, Ore., says that while a fall from 20,000 feet sounds
incredible, the extreme height makes little difference. "Anything above
10 or 12 stories and you've reached terminal velocity. So a fall from
20,000 feet sounds dramatic, but there's really no difference from a
500-foot fall."

Modifié par squee913, 10 avril 2011 - 05:26 .

[CroGamer002]

TOO... MUCH... MATH AND PHYSIC!

[darth_lopez]

[quote]squee913 wrote...


[quote]squee913 wrote...

[quote]darth_lopez wrote...

I'm pretty sure in this case it does xD though thats the problem. Besides him going splat matches with "Meat in Tubes" I mean jeez it's not like i'm going ludicrously into this either >.> i could be running calculations to prove he burnt up in atmo.
[/quote]

Again, how do we know this? If we can not say for sure that he was traveling faster than terminal velocity and others have survived extreme falls at terminal velocity than it is possible for his body to do it as well. If there is even a small percentage chance that it was possible, than it can't be a plot hole, just one hell of a lucky break for Shep.

[/quote]
[quote]darth_lopez wrote...
-.- i never said he was traveling faster than his terminal velocity. GO to the the previous page Use your eyes READ. i tried calculating Terminal veleocity I'm pretty sure it's wrong The equations on Wikipedia by all means go try figuring it out yourself. [/quote]

I did read it.
[quote]

Actually, Time is the biggest variable. That and his accelaration. Those determine exactly how fast he is going
And
unless you would like to magically produce the number for resitance on
that planet you have to neglect it in this case Never mind that we know 
that in just basic physics(high school level stuff) Resistance is
considered neglegible in the Position, Velocity, and Acceleration
Formulas
and calculations neglecting it are still amazingly accurate. With an
atmosphere 25% less dense than earths(right?) that would likely be 25%
less Resistance. The winds are another unknown the angle of decent and
time, Though i'm 100% sure it took him more than 4 minutes to land, the
sruface is known to be Icy Though. Ice is not a nice substance.  Imagine
calling into a field of glass at just 435 m/s You would get sliced
diced impaled and explode all over the surface you impacted on. AND we
do know the accelartion due to gravity ~7.25 (25% less than earths.)

So
considering there seems to be a nice 25% difference here. Shepards
chances onf not going immediately super splat are what reduced by 25%?
that's not a whole lot. And he's still coming in like a bat out of hell
the moment you can tell me that 435 Meters Per Second(after
1 minute, shepard goes unconcious is 15 seconds according to the guy
with the nasa Fact we could extend that by 25% if you'd like to be what?
~18.5 Seconds?) is not coming in like a bat out of hell is the moment
you throw all forms of logic out the window

After 2 minutes he's falling at ~870 M/S
3 minutes : 1305 m/s 
4 minutes: 1740 M/s

Do
you see the trend here?  He is coming in like a mofo. With 25% less
atmosphere, and likely 25% less resisitance,  He's not going to be
slowing down near fast enough to prevent an "explosive" impact.(never
mind that at those speeds on earth Resistance and winds won't slow you
down fast enough, or mars, jupiter, any planet that we know off.) If the
winds are blowing hard enough maybe they'll slow him down somewhat but
not enough to reduce his speed substantially after 4 Minutes. It's more likely they'll change his trajectory than affect his Speed. [/quote]

Can you show me where you even mention terminal velocity and that he would not accelerate beyond it? According to this post he would just continue to gain speed until he went splat. This is not a problem with calculations but a problem of ignoring terminal velocity all together. Unless you are saying that because we don't know the resistance of the atmosphere we should just ignore it and call it negligible, which is an even bigger error than just forgetting about it. This is your post. You never said the words, "He will not accelerate beyond terminal velocity". that is true. But it was most definitely was the conclusion of your argument.
[/quote]

It's kinda hard to miss Go here http://social.biowar...ndex/6968140/16 Now scroll down till you see a large White  Box with numbers in it.  However I would recommend disregarding it because the number is certaintly wrong.

Also i meant Read my Previous Posts not just the one.

[quote]
[quote]
Lets reduce 195km/h by 25% which is ~146.05km/h(just like we did with g and desnisty)  lets say, for the sake of argument, This is shepards best estimated Terminal velocity right now(cuase i bothced my attempt to find it)
at 4 seconds shepard is heading at 29.24 m/s or 105.264 km/h if you convert up, at 5 seconds he hits 131.58km/h and at 5.5seconds he is traveling at 144.738km/h He obviously hits the estimated terminal velocity between 5.5 seconds and 6 seconds. And is now officially traveling like a bat out of hell.

You tell me What object that hits that any surface that fast is going to be intact?
[/quote]

Here are 5 of them.
http://www.popularme...stories/4344037
[/quote]

First the argument isn't survivability it's Intactness and overall recoverability of the body. In the even that it doesn't spalt and become "Meat in Tubes" as jacob claims it becomes a slightly large plot hole. Because the game makes sure to tell you that he was in no good shape at all.

counter quotes from articles
[quote]
Because of the altitude, Magee lost consciousness mid-fall before
smashing through the glass roof of St. Nazaire's train station. Hours
later, he awoke to find German doctors putting him back together. His
injuries included a broken right leg and ankle, a nearly severed right
arm, and 28 shrapnel wounds from shards of glass.
[/quote]
His impact with the glass transfered some of his momentum to it though it obviously still hurt like hell, Nearly severed Arm and 28 shrapnel wounds A broken leg and Ankle It's shocking he didn't get completely sliced up from the glass. That glass probably saved his life awkwardly enough Another thing to note is that while the glass is solid there is a hollow area beneath it For him to continue falling it was not an Immediate Stop. as it's likely to have been in shepards case.

[quote]
. Luckily, she landed across a string of power lines before falling all
the way to the ground, and the 11,000-foot plummet left her with only a
broken pelvis.




The give in the lines dampened the force of her descent, says Izenberg,
who assists both police and the National Guard with trauma injuries. "By
the time she hit the ground she had already used up and transferred the
energy when she hit the power lines," he says. "In physics, [this
change in momentum] is called impulse."

[/quote]

Contact with power lines slowed decent and essentially saved the Diver.

[quote]
Thirty thousand feet in the air, the hail shredded the mylar skin of The
Solo Spirit and Fossett's passenger capsule began falling from the sky.
To brace for impact, Fossett lay across the bench of the capsule and
awaited his fate.




Shockingly, when the remnants of The Solo Spirit splashed down, Fossett
found himself totally unhurt. As the capsule filled with water, he
scrambled out with a life raft, and was eventually rescued after more
than 10 hours at sea.



[/quote]
Spalsh down different from impact with solid object and he was contained in a basket

[quote]
Hanson took off running down a hotel corridor, straight for the
double-paned window. The 275-pound Hanson lost his balance and smashed
through the glass headfirst. Tumbling over, he fell 160 feet before
landing on his feet atop an asphalt-covered first-floor overhang.


It was probably the overhang that allowed Hanson to walk away from the
incident with just a broken leg and a few scratches. Richard G. Snyder,
in a 1963 paper published by the Civil Aeromedical Research Institute
called "Human Survivability of Extreme Impacts in Free-Fall," said
inebriated individuals had a disproportionate survival rate, and
theorized that it might be because they are more relaxed.
[/quote]
1) he's drunk
2) he fell from 160 feet not 500
3) he did not contact the ground
4) he has a higher terminal velocity because of his weight and it is unlikely he hit it from 160 feet fall.

[quote]
. Reuters reported that Munich police had detained a BASE jumper after
they found him dangling by his parachute from a construction crane 150
feet above the ground. According to the report, the man had leapt from
the 35th floor of an unfinished highrise--almost 500 feet up--only to
have his parachute fail. Luckily for him the tangled lines of his
parachute snagged the crane, saving him from near certain death.
[/quote]
 
This last one doesn't even touch any solid surface. As such it is not applicable in teh discussion.


Please Read your articles before Posting them.


[quote]
And before anyone says that Shepard fell form higher altitude, this is from the article.

[quote]
Dr. Seth Izenberg, a trauma specialist at Legacy Emmanuel Hospital in
Portland, Ore., says that while a fall from 20,000 feet sounds
incredible, the extreme height makes little difference. "Anything above
10 or 12 stories and you've reached terminal velocity. So a fall from
20,000 feet sounds dramatic, but there's really no difference from a
500-foot fall."[/quote]


[/quote]


Most of us have known what terminal velocity was since someone mentioned it. Thank you for restablishing that he doesn't fall faster than Terminal Velocity.  You should note that your quoted Doctor makes no Refrences to "Mess" or lethality of the fall Only the Velocity.

Modifié par darth_lopez, 10 avril 2011 - 05:53 .

[darth_lopez]

Mesina2 wrote...

TOO... MUCH... MATH AND PHYSIC!

i'm sorry v.v

[Almostfaceman]

darth_lopez wrote...
huge snip

One minor correction - it's not Meat IN Tubes it's Meat AND Tubes.

[darth_lopez]

Almostfaceman wrote...

darth_lopez wrote...
huge snip

One minor correction - it's not Meat IN Tubes it's Meat AND Tubes.

And again the entailment that you are only Meat and Tubes is still there, along with the implication that You are not intact in any identifiable or easily recoverable way.

[piemanz]

darth_lopez wrote...

according to wikipedia, 195km/h for a ski diver in belly to earth fre fall possition. He's accelerating by Gravitational Acceleration. And if we tried to estimate terminal velocity for him, probably more accurately by reducing this number by 25% (just like with desnity of atmosphere and gravity) ( because i am 100% certain my calculation for it is wrong)  He'll hit Term. after about 5.5 seconds. Don't forget he likely goes unconcious after 15seconds (Guy with Nasa Fact) and no longer has any control over his velocity and direction.

The thing you are also not getting here si that Terminal velocity on a planet that's has 25% less atmospheric desnisty than earth With 25% less gravity than earth Isn't  going to have a Terminal velocity of   .002 km/h AkA:fluffy magical air bunny cushion speed. Nor will it be likely to have a terminal velocity of 1k/mh AKA Walking while drunk speed. nor is it likely to have a terminal velocity of 3 km/h AKA walking. Nor 9km/h (very slow car) nor 50km/h 70km/h (both of wich can be lethal speeds. look at car accidents While this isn't free fall it is certaintly a good place to see how certaint velocities affect bodies)

Also this isn't even factoring in the known icy surface of the planet. and upon checking the ME wiki it's 15% off gravitationally from Earth, there is no information on Atmospheric density though. it does however have a 17% change in pressure( i took a comment earlier about pressure as density. my bad again)
http://masseffect.wi...om/wiki/Alchera
So all estimates are off by 10% on gravity(It has it's gravity is 85% of earths (Earths gravity -15%) new g is 8.34) and Atmospheric Denisty is presently unknown

I'm aware and factored in  what i don't know (AKA variables), and since you're not really telling me anything i dont already know, you're no closer to proving it's impossible for Sheps body to survive intact, or something resembling intact.

[squee913]

darth_lopez wrote...

It's kinda hard to miss Go here http://social.biowar...ndex/6968140/16 Now scroll down till you see a large White  Box with numbers in it.  However I would recommend disregarding it because the number is certaintly wrong.

Also i meant Read my Previous Post[/i][i]s not just the one.

You stated that you never said he would fall faster than terminal velocity. I showed you clearly did. The fact that you recanted is great but that doesn't erase the fact you stated you said it. The only reason why I made a deal of it is because you accused me of not READING your posts. I read them just fine. You simply forgot what you wrote.

First the argument isn't survivability it's Intactness and overall recoverability of the body. In the even that it doesn't spalt and become "Meat in Tubes" as jacob claims it becomes a slightly large plot hole. Because the game makes sure to tell you that he was in no good shape at all.


Please Read your articles before Posting them.

You clearly asked what object can survive impact at those speeds. I will give you the last one (not sure how I missed that, but I admit I am not the sharpest tool in the shed) but the other all survived a drop that would have caused terminal velocity. The guy who fell form 16 stories still counts since the doctor said you usually hit terminal velocity after 10 or 12 stories (if he was not at it, he was close enough for it to matter) They all survived. If a body can survive it, than it is more than possible that it can at least make the fall and remain intact enough to recover. We have no idea how shepard landed. Something could have broken his fall, or affected it. Did he fall through a glass roof? Not likely, but you cannot assume he hit the ground at full speed and a 90 degree angle.

Modifié par squee913, 10 avril 2011 - 06:16 .

[didymos1120]

squee913 wrote...

And before anyone says that Shepard fell form higher altitude, this is from the article.
*snip*

Here's a couple more cases of extreme falls:

Ivan Chisov:

Ivan Mikhailovich Chisov was a Soviet Airforce Lieutenant who is notable for surviving a fall of nearly 22,000 feet (6 700 meters).

Lieutenant Chisov was a Soviet Airforce Lieutenant on an Ilyushin Il-4 bomber. In January of 1942, German fighters attacked his bomber, forcing him to bail out at an altitude of approximately 22,000 feet. With the battle still raging around him, Lt. Chisov intentionally did not open his parachute, since he feared that he would just be an easy target for an angry German while he was dangling from his parachute harness. He planned on dropping below the level of the battle, and then, once he was out of sight of the German fighters, he would open his chute and land safely. However, he lost consciousness on the way down, and was unable to pull the rip cord.

Miraculously, he was not killed. He hit the edge of a snowy ravine at an estimated speed of somewhere between 120 and 150 mph, then slid, rolled, and plowed his way down to the bottom. He suffered spinal injuries and a broken pelvis, but was able to fly again three months later.

Nicholas Alkemade:

Flight Sergeant Nicholas Stephen Alkemade (1923–1987) was a tail gunner for a Royal Air Force Avro Lancaster bomber during World War II who survived a fall of 18,000 feet (5500 m) without a parachute after his plane was shot down over Germany.

On March 24, 1944, 21 year old Alkemade was a member of No. 115 Squadron RAF and his Lancaster II, "S for Sugar", was flying to the east of Schmallenberg, Germany on its return from a 300-bomber raid on Berlin, when it was attacked by a Luftwaffe Junkers Ju 88 night-fighter, caught fire and began to spiral out of control. Because his parachute was destroyed by the fire, Alkemade opted to jump from the aircraft without one, preferring to die by impact rather than fire. He fell 18,000 feet (5500 m) to the ground below.

But his fall was broken by pine trees and a soft snow cover on the ground. He was able to move his arms and legs and suffered only a sprained leg. The Lancaster crashed in flames, killing the pilot — Jack Newman — and three other members of the seven-man crew. They are buried in Hanover War Cemetery.

Alkemade was subsequently captured and interviewed by the Gestapo, who were initially suspicious of his claim to have fallen without a parachute until the wreckage of the aircraft was examined. He was then a celebrated POW before being repatriated in May 1945. (Reportedly the orderly Germans were so impressed that Alkemade had bailed out without a parachute and lived that they gave him a certificate testifying to the fact.) He worked in the chemical industry after the war and died on June 22, 1987.

Shep's got an advantage here: he/she was already dead, so the unlikelihood of surviving isn't an issue.  The corpse just has to stay in one piece. Much easier to accomplish.  And unless she/he somehow managed to go into rigor during the fall, the corpse gets all the benefits of the relaxed falling drunk person.

Modifié par didymos1120, 10 avril 2011 - 06:19 .

[squee913]

didymos1120 wrote...

squee913 wrote...

And before anyone says that Shepard fell form higher altitude, this is from the article.
*snip*

Here's a couple more cases of extreme falls:

Ivan Chisov:

Ivan Mikhailovich Chisov was a Soviet Airforce Lieutenant who is notable for surviving a fall of nearly 22,000 feet (6 700 meters).

Lieutenant Chisov was a Soviet Airforce Lieutenant on an Ilyushin Il-4 bomber. In January of 1942, German fighters attacked his bomber, forcing him to bail out at an altitude of approximately 22,000 feet. With the battle still raging around him, Lt. Chisov intentionally did not open his parachute, since he feared that he would just be an easy target for an angry German while he was dangling from his parachute harness. He planned on dropping below the level of the battle, and then, once he was out of sight of the German fighters, he would open his chute and land safely. However, he lost consciousness on the way down, and was unable to pull the rip cord.

Miraculously, he was not killed. He hit the edge of a snowy ravine at an estimated speed of somewhere between 120 and 150 mph, then slid, rolled, and plowed his way down to the bottom. He suffered spinal injuries and a broken pelvis, but was able to fly again three months later.

Nicholas Alkemade:

Flight Sergeant Nicholas Stephen Alkemade (1923–1987) was a tail gunner for a Royal Air Force Avro Lancaster bomber during World War II who survived a fall of 18,000 feet (5500 m) without a parachute after his plane was shot down over Germany.

On March 24, 1944, 21 year old Alkemade was a member of No. 115 Squadron RAF and his Lancaster II, "S for Sugar", was flying to the east of Schmallenberg, Germany on its return from a 300-bomber raid on Berlin, when it was attacked by a Luftwaffe Junkers Ju 88 night-fighter, caught fire and began to spiral out of control. Because his parachute was destroyed by the fire, Alkemade opted to jump from the aircraft without one, preferring to die by impact rather than fire. He fell 18,000 feet (5500 m) to the ground below.

But his fall was broken by pine trees and a soft snow cover on the ground. He was able to move his arms and legs and suffered only a sprained leg. The Lancaster crashed in flames, killing the pilot — Jack Newman — and three other members of the seven-man crew. They are buried in Hanover War Cemetery.

Alkemade was subsequently captured and interviewed by the Gestapo, who were initially suspicious of his claim to have fallen without a parachute until the wreckage of the aircraft was examined. He was then a celebrated POW before being repatriated in May 1945. (Reportedly the orderly Germans were so impressed that Alkemade had bailed out without a parachute and lived that they gave him a certificate testifying to the fact.) He worked in the chemical industry after the war and died on June 22, 1987.

Shep's got an advantage here: he/she was already dead, so the unlikelihood of surviving isn't an issue.  The corpse just has to stay in one piece. Much easier to accomplish.

Damn Shepard... always getting a handicap!!

[darth_lopez]

piemanz wrote...


I'm aware and factored in  what i don't know (AKA variables), and since you're not really telling me anything i dont already know, you're no closer to proving it's impossible for Sheps body to survive intact, or something resembling intact.

Not necessarily true. " Meat and Tubes" implies alot about sheps condition

[Almostfaceman]

Just watched the 5th Element again yesterday - now that's a Lazarus Project. Assembled a person from the remains of a hand. Ahhh, I love science fiction.