546 réponses à ce sujet

[darth_lopez]

Almostfaceman wrote...

darth_lopez wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...

@darth_lopez - and THIS is why I said it's all ultimately speculation.
I have no problem with someone disagreeing with me - I have a problem when they start telling me their opinion is fact (in situations like this).  This message board is full of people who think their opinion is equivalent to the Word of God handed down by Moses on the tablets - and I like pointing out how silly they are.

I have been waiting to reply to this for a long time.  but i got caught up in arguing with squee. i felt a wee bit on the attacked side with this post. I just wanted to say Yes it's ultimate speculation, However between the two of us specifically i've been the one trying to support my statements with applicable facts and evidence relative to what we've been arguing. Not just my claim or phrases that have no particular value to the conversation and themselves lack substance.

Also just because something is speculation does not justify the total ambandonment of supporting evidence (like facts, and examples) that would certaintly help further your cause. The people who support their claims with facts and examples are typically the ones who tend to be correct  or are at least on to something that could turn out to be valid with more evidene (issaac newtons 3 laws of physics, Einsteins theory of relativity just about every other scientist, mathematician, philosopher, any Professional in a field)

An argument is an Opinion(or claim) with supporting facts that bring validity to the claim so long as they are applicable and relevant to the subject. An opinion is just: "Well for me Airbreaks work" Or "He could've had a Parachute" I'm sorry you feel that i had been arrogant in my defense of my claim and usage of applicable and relevant facts and examples.

We're talking about a fictional story - so it means that all the facts are not present.  "Supporting Evidence" becomes less important since this universe isn't as complete as ours.  We cannot, for instance, call the manufacturer of Sheps suit and ask them about the parachute.  We cannot check their web site.  None of this exists.  No author is this thorough.  Therefore in my opinion a lot of the effort you put into the discussion was pointless. 

It's ALL GUESSWORK.  As you have admitted.  

Yes it's partially guess work But When you pikc up on certain trends in military development from real life (some of which are still followed in mass effect Most obviously lack of laser/beam weapons as they are consider impractical, and developmenet of the normandy which is essentially a space sub can be attributed to practicality(in normandies case it's simply a better and more practical idea for observation, supply interception[also fits in this case with human Military doctrine in ME 1 making it a practical decision for alliance navy], and ambush manuevers) and then look at the liklihood an infantry man is going to be falling from Orbit, or any distance high enough to hit terminal velocity, You can accurately surmize  that Airbreaks simply don't exist in the armor because they would be impractical and see little to no use for general infantry.

could alliance paratroopers have armor with airbreaks and integrated Parachutes? By all means it would be totally believable then But Shepard is not an Alliance paratrooper No does he require consistent orbital drops when his Frigate The Normandy SR-1 is teh most advanced stealth ship in the galaxy undetectable by sensors every other species sensors(excluding reaper related ones).

Also another bit of reasoning here If shepard had a parachute integrated into his suit the whole time, or air breaks what was the point of shep dropping in the Mako or the kodiak when he could just simply drop down on to his target like a paratrooper?

The parachute idea came from me discussing with Koopman earlier about the survivability of Shep's brain.  For me, looking at what little we have to work with, I postulated the possibility of a parachute.  This could conceivably slow Shep's fall enough to (combined with the helmet) protect Sheps's brain enough for recovery.  Because Shep's brain was recovered.

The only necessary fact of the matter is that the slightly more plausible idea of a parachute came up. While it's still impractical and Infantrymen woudl likely never use the feature of the suit(excluding paratroopers IF we go under the assumption they still exist So Far we have no confirmation if paratroopers still exist or any equivalent type of trooper. If they did, as we see in all other forms of sci-fi, you might be able to guess they're delivered by Drop Pod instead of a parachute But this is assuming paratroopers exist in ME)

If someone can prove that it is a FACT that the suit does not have a parachute, then I'll have to disregard that possibility.  Until then, I can, in MY explanation of what could have happened, say it's possible for a parachute to have been deployed.

With all due respect, any guesses, for any reason, that the suit did not have a parachute, remain at heart guesses, not fact.

Wrong i'm making reasonable guesses based off of tendencies in Our actual military and considering in general the practicality of such a system. The liklihood that any such automated Parachute System existed is immensley small though Larger than the airbreak idea when you simply evaluate it on practicality.

Now, if the cut-scene had shown us Shepard's head exploding and his body turning to liquified goo - I would cede the "it's a plot-hole" argument.

I'm not arguing there's a plot hole. Just that Airbreaks, and Parachutes are Unlikly at best. When shep hit he hit the ground at terminal velocity, or whatever the first object he struck was at terminal velocity. He had no Airbreak system he had no autmotated parachute are Nearly certainties given What we know from Our Human Implementation of military devices. we aren't trying to figure out why krogan have 4 testicles here We know what we do histrorically when things aren't practical, mainly we don't use them and that should be sufficient enough to debunk the claim. I would think my argument using our past military research and determinations of practicality would Strengthen my claim Mostly because we're talking about a Human Designed Suit Worn by a Human Spec. Ops. Angent(let's not forget shep is N7).

[darth_lopez]

piemanz wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...

Il Divo wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...

I'm sorry, was I making a scientific argument, or was I explaining how a story point could work?

I'd say they're one and the same in this case. There's no logic flow to the conclusion that Shepard had a parachute. As I said, if we can choose whatever explanation we want, then there's no such thing as plotholes.

Exactly how was I making up whatever I wanted?  I'm pretty sure my argument was within certain parameters. 

Parameter 1:
Sheps body survived - did not burn to crisp, did not turn to liquified goo on impact of planet.
Parameter 2: 
Sheps brain suvived - Shep returns to us with his memories intact.
Parameter 3:
It is logical to me that a suit designed to survive the destruction of a spaceship (which can have a critical failure both in atmosphere and in space) have a parachute.

I'm not "making anything up".  I'm pointing at a possibility.

Now, if you want to suggest this is as ridiculous as me saying that UFO strangers from planet X grabbed Shep on the descent and set him down gently - I'll have to disagree with you.

Although i had dismissed this and concentrated my argument that he could have landed intact even without a parachute.There is a decent argument that their suits do have some kind of parachute built in.

Before landing on eden prime in ME1, Nialus clearly jumps out of the docking bay of the normandy in midflight, without an obvious parachute, and Shep and Co. seem to do the same a bit later.

Nope normandy stops for Shep and Co. and does a nice 180 after dropping them if i remember correctly. shep jumped down maybe 10 feet from the platform. While you are on to somethign with nihulus this is the only example of a Jump from a moving Ship in ME. Where as we have numerous examples of shepard either being dropped off at ground level by Shuttle or By normandy or By Mako instead of simply jumping. This would imply no parachute exists on his armor(no reason for a drop ship if you can Drop in by yourself). Also considering that Cerberus apparently has cutting edge technology(brought people back from dead with magic medical tech Built second super stealthy ship with an AI in it I think we can agree on this), If in ME 2 we never see shep jump straight from the normandy, from what i can remember, There are no reason to even theorize That parachutes existed in the armor before. Because if they did they certaintly don't now.

[Almostfaceman]

Well there's room for disagreement then, since you're making what are "to you" reasonable guesses. A reasonable guess for me (and I've been in the military, and no not behind a desk) is that a military 175 years into the future will possibly have a microframe parachute built-in for suits designed to survive atmospheric and space contingencies inherent in living aboard a spacecraft that can dwell in both atmospheric and space environments.

Modifié par Almostfaceman, 10 avril 2011 - 05:37 .

[darth_lopez]

Almostfaceman wrote...

Il Divo wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...

I'm sorry, was I making a scientific argument, or was I explaining how a story point could work?

I'd say they're one and the same in this case. There's no logic flow to the conclusion that Shepard had a parachute. As I said, if we can choose whatever explanation we want, then there's no such thing as plotholes.

Exactly how was I making up whatever I wanted?  I'm pretty sure my argument was within certain parameters. 

Parameter 1:
Sheps body survived - did not burn to crisp, did not turn to liquified goo on impact of planet.
Parameter 2: 
Sheps brain suvived - Shep returns to us with his memories intact.
Parameter 3:
It is logical to me that a suit designed to survive the destruction of a spaceship (which can have a critical failure both in atmosphere and in space) have a parachute.

I'm not "making anything up".  I'm pointing at a possibility.

Now, if you want to suggest this is as ridiculous as me saying that UFO strangers from planet X grabbed Shep on the descent and set him down gently - I'll have to disagree with you.

If the suit was designed to withstand re-entry or even just the destruction of the space ship Why does not everyone where the suit? Why do Escape pods, alot of them, Exist on the normandy? Would not a fully armored and armed crew Be better to fend off borders?

Suits of that magnitude Would make escape pods obsolete. If everyones got a parachute no reason to add Emergency Drop pods to a ship.The Existance of escape pods(which we don't have unless you count Ejection seats and Life Boats) Implies That Armors are not designed to sruvive Space Shipt Destruction. I'm Sorry it just doesn't work.

Modifié par darth_lopez, 10 avril 2011 - 05:39 .

[Almostfaceman]

darth_lopez wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...

Il Divo wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...

I'm sorry, was I making a scientific argument, or was I explaining how a story point could work?

I'd say they're one and the same in this case. There's no logic flow to the conclusion that Shepard had a parachute. As I said, if we can choose whatever explanation we want, then there's no such thing as plotholes.

Exactly how was I making up whatever I wanted?  I'm pretty sure my argument was within certain parameters. 

Parameter 1:
Sheps body survived - did not burn to crisp, did not turn to liquified goo on impact of planet.
Parameter 2: 
Sheps brain suvived - Shep returns to us with his memories intact.
Parameter 3:
It is logical to me that a suit designed to survive the destruction of a spaceship (which can have a critical failure both in atmosphere and in space) have a parachute.

I'm not "making anything up".  I'm pointing at a possibility.

Now, if you want to suggest this is as ridiculous as me saying that UFO strangers from planet X grabbed Shep on the descent and set him down gently - I'll have to disagree with you.

If the suit was designed to withstand re-entry or even just the destruction of the space ship Why does not everyone where the suit? Why do Escape pods, alot of them, Exist on the normandy? Would not a fully armored and armed crew Be better to fend off borders?

Suits of that magnitude Would make escape pods obsolete. If everyones got a parachute no reason to add Emergency Drop pods to a ship.The Existance of escape pods(which we don't have unless you count Ejection seats and Life Boats) Implies That Armors are not designed to sruvive Space Shipt Destruction. I'm Sorry it just doesn't work.

The suit doesn't have to make escape pods obsolete at all.  An escape pod will necessarily have more shielding agains gamma rays/meteor impacts/vacuum leaks.  It will provide food and water.  It will provide stronger emergency signal power.  The suit can exist as a stop-gap measure.  Ship explodes?  Vaccuum exposure?  You're wearing your suit - there's a chance maybe a ship can pick you up in an hour.  Ship loses power approaching a city - you can parachute to the ground no prob.  These are not mutually exclusive concepts.

The people who did not have the suits on clearly did not have time to put them on.  Shepard and Liara/VS either did have time or perhaps they were getting ready to go planetside to check something out.

[darth_lopez]

Almostfaceman wrote...

Well there's room for disagreement then, since you're making what are "to you" reasonable guesses. A reasonable guess for me (and I've been in the military, and no not behind a desk) is that a military 175 years into the future will possibly have a microframe parachute built-in for suits designed to survive atmospheric and space contingencies inherent in living aboard a spacecraft that can dwell in both atmospheric and space environments.

Still Highly doubtful. Tell Me What was the liklihood that You (if you were simply an infantry man fighting on the ground and not a paratrooper) Would require parachute? If you were in the navy(not a pilot) Would you require a parachute to jump off your boat?

If you were in the military you should have no problem answering that the  liklihood you needed a parachute as general infantry was immensly small. You were probably typically deployed by APC(in this case MAKO) Or gunship(BlackHawk as an example, Hind for Russians)  Not quite sure how marines are deployed though i would guess by typically the same ways. Sure we have paratrooper but they are trained to jump outta **** specifically. and All pilots would have a parchute (Joker did not He had an escape pod directly behind him though)

[Almostfaceman]

darth_lopez wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...

Well there's room for disagreement then, since you're making what are "to you" reasonable guesses. A reasonable guess for me (and I've been in the military, and no not behind a desk) is that a military 175 years into the future will possibly have a microframe parachute built-in for suits designed to survive atmospheric and space contingencies inherent in living aboard a spacecraft that can dwell in both atmospheric and space environments.

Still Highly doubtful. Tell Me What was the liklihood that You (if you were simply an infantry man fighting on the ground and not a paratrooper) Would require parachute? If you were in the navy(not a pilot) Would you require a parachute to jump off your boat?

If you were in the military you should have no problem answering that the  liklihood you needed a parachute as general infantry was immensly small. You were probably typically deployed by APC(in this case MAKO) Or gunship(BlackHawk as an example, Hind for Russians)  Not quite sure how marines are deployed though i would guess by typically the same ways. Sure we have paratrooper but they are trained to jump outta **** specifically. and All pilots would have a parchute (Joker did not He had an escape pod directly behind him though)

You're thinking in our-time concepts.  You cannot make assumptions about the needs of the military in the future and expect no-one to disagree with you.

You keep mentioning ground troops - look I don't know any ground troops that we have currently that are trained in zero-gee tactics like Ashley mentions.  I don't know any that fly on spaceships.  I don't know any with magnetic boots - like Shep exhibited when he walked up the elevator in ME1.

I know that if I wanted to make a covert drop near a target without the mako, a parachute would come in handy - Normandy could drop me at high altitude and I could slip in.

[piemanz]

darth_lopez wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...

Well there's room for disagreement then, since you're making what are "to you" reasonable guesses. A reasonable guess for me (and I've been in the military, and no not behind a desk) is that a military 175 years into the future will possibly have a microframe parachute built-in for suits designed to survive atmospheric and space contingencies inherent in living aboard a spacecraft that can dwell in both atmospheric and space environments.

Still Highly doubtful. Tell Me What was the liklihood that You (if you were simply an infantry man fighting on the ground and not a paratrooper) Would require parachute? If you were in the navy(not a pilot) Would you require a parachute to jump off your boat?

If you were in the military you should have no problem answering that the  liklihood you needed a parachute as general infantry was immensly small. You were probably typically deployed by APC(in this case MAKO) Or gunship(BlackHawk as an example, Hind for Russians)  Not quite sure how marines are deployed though i would guess by typically the same ways. Sure we have paratrooper but they are trained to jump outta **** specifically. and All pilots would have a parchute (Joker did not He had an escape pod directly behind him though)

The thing is, sheps not in the infantry, he's SpecOps. His missions would need space land and air training and any relevant equipment.

[darth_lopez]

Almostfaceman wrote...


The suit doesn't have to make escape pods obsolete at all.  An escape pod will necessarily have more shielding agains gamma rays/meteor impacts/vacuum leaks.

We know from ME 1 that Armors in the ME universe can handle a various degree of extreme environments (thank you exploration with mako) They certaintly have  few problems as far as Radiation and Micro Meteor Impacts go. Nothing can really protect against leaks of the suit environment though. You're pretty much screwed. Lets not forget we have kinetic barriers that will stop high velocity objects from Seriously injuring us and if you are drifting at a speed of .0002 km/h toward a rock going .000003 km/h i doubt You're gonna feel a lot of pain on impact (equivalent of falling into pillows Loaded with magical super soft bunnies).

Also if you had a suit capable of surviving star ship destruction why is the pilot, who has britlle bones, not wearing one?

  It will provide food and water.  It will provide stronger emergency signal power.  The suit can exist as a stop-gap measure.  Ship explodes?  Vaccuum exposure?  You're wearing your suit - there's a chance maybe a ship can pick you up in an hour.  Ship loses power approaching a city - you can parachute to the ground no prob.  These are not mutually exclusive concepts.

Again why are not all members of the crew seemingly given a suit then? Also if your ship lost Power Approching a city you are gonna have one hell of a time opening the air lock before impact. Even if it did lose power you could still probably use an escape pod(i'm sure modern life boats have a manual whinch) I'm 100% positive those have their own power supply and A manual launch mechanism.  No need to parachute when you have emergency drop pod.

The people who did not have the suits on clearly did not have time to put them on.  Shepard and Liara/VS either did have time or perhaps they were getting ready to go planetside to check something out.

Why did they not wear suits in the battle fo the citadel when it would've been most i mportant too?  IF you intend to say they had suits and they weren't wearing them for that battle (with ships being destroyed left right upside down) i would really liek to see some ingame or inlore proof that the entire crew had combat suits.

[darth_lopez]

piemanz wrote...

darth_lopez wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...

Well there's room for disagreement then, since you're making what are "to you" reasonable guesses. A reasonable guess for me (and I've been in the military, and no not behind a desk) is that a military 175 years into the future will possibly have a microframe parachute built-in for suits designed to survive atmospheric and space contingencies inherent in living aboard a spacecraft that can dwell in both atmospheric and space environments.

Still Highly doubtful. Tell Me What was the liklihood that You (if you were simply an infantry man fighting on the ground and not a paratrooper) Would require parachute? If you were in the navy(not a pilot) Would you require a parachute to jump off your boat?

If you were in the military you should have no problem answering that the  liklihood you needed a parachute as general infantry was immensly small. You were probably typically deployed by APC(in this case MAKO) Or gunship(BlackHawk as an example, Hind for Russians)  Not quite sure how marines are deployed though i would guess by typically the same ways. Sure we have paratrooper but they are trained to jump outta **** specifically. and All pilots would have a parchute (Joker did not He had an escape pod directly behind him though)

The thing is, sheps not in the infantry, he's SpecOps. His missions would need space land and air training and any relevant equipment.

Yes He had An APC that could Air Drop into anything. I think this covers it quite well. Or do you intend to overlook the consitent use of the Mako and Kodiac?

[xboxlivegamer]

*facepalm*

God damn it.

[piemanz]

darth_lopez wrote...

piemanz wrote...

darth_lopez wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...

Well there's room for disagreement then, since you're making what are "to you" reasonable guesses. A reasonable guess for me (and I've been in the military, and no not behind a desk) is that a military 175 years into the future will possibly have a microframe parachute built-in for suits designed to survive atmospheric and space contingencies inherent in living aboard a spacecraft that can dwell in both atmospheric and space environments.

Still Highly doubtful. Tell Me What was the liklihood that You (if you were simply an infantry man fighting on the ground and not a paratrooper) Would require parachute? If you were in the navy(not a pilot) Would you require a parachute to jump off your boat?

If you were in the military you should have no problem answering that the  liklihood you needed a parachute as general infantry was immensly small. You were probably typically deployed by APC(in this case MAKO) Or gunship(BlackHawk as an example, Hind for Russians)  Not quite sure how marines are deployed though i would guess by typically the same ways. Sure we have paratrooper but they are trained to jump outta **** specifically. and All pilots would have a parchute (Joker did not He had an escape pod directly behind him though)

The thing is, sheps not in the infantry, he's SpecOps. His missions would need space land and air training and any relevant equipment.

Yes He had An APC that could Air Drop into anything. I think this covers it quite well. Or do you intend to overlook the consitent use of the Mako and Kodiac?

I've not overlooked it at all.The mako makes a lot more sense than parachuting if you intend to travel a distance upon landing. That doesn't necessarily mean parachutes become redundant.

[darth_lopez]

Almostfaceman wrote...

darth_lopez wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...

Well there's room for disagreement then, since you're making what are "to you" reasonable guesses. A reasonable guess for me (and I've been in the military, and no not behind a desk) is that a military 175 years into the future will possibly have a microframe parachute built-in for suits designed to survive atmospheric and space contingencies inherent in living aboard a spacecraft that can dwell in both atmospheric and space environments.

Still Highly doubtful. Tell Me What was the liklihood that You (if you were simply an infantry man fighting on the ground and not a paratrooper) Would require parachute? If you were in the navy(not a pilot) Would you require a parachute to jump off your boat?

If you were in the military you should have no problem answering that the  liklihood you needed a parachute as general infantry was immensly small. You were probably typically deployed by APC(in this case MAKO) Or gunship(BlackHawk as an example, Hind for Russians)  Not quite sure how marines are deployed though i would guess by typically the same ways. Sure we have paratrooper but they are trained to jump outta **** specifically. and All pilots would have a parchute (Joker did not He had an escape pod directly behind him though)

You're thinking in our-time concepts.  You cannot make assumptions about the needs of the military in the future and expect no-one to disagree with you.

I don't expect you to agree 100% with me But I'm no tmaking assumptions I'm making pretty good educated guesses based off our past experiences.

You keep mentioning ground troops - look I don't know any ground troops that we have currently that are trained in zero-gee tactics like Ashley mentions.  I don't know any that fly on spaceships.  I don't know any with magnetic boots - like Shep exhibited when he walked up the elevator in ME1.

Centrifugal Force. OR is it centripedal force? Teh assumption shep had magnetic boots has no real evidence. He could have been Clinging to the exact center off of the Citadel because of the Way the citadel maintains it's artificial gravity. I think.

edit:And in either case nothing is confirmed by the game. nor do we really have any tendencies we can look at to shed some light on the situation

I should just leave it as infantrymen. Besides do we ever see an example of Zero G Combat? (nope we don't)

I know that if I wanted to make a covert drop near a target without the mako, a parachute would come in handy - Normandy could drop me at high altitude and I could slip in.

Yet shepard never does that. Illos he risks crashign in the mako to make a landing. If he had a parachute he would not need to make that risk.

Modifié par darth_lopez, 10 avril 2011 - 06:13 .

[darth_lopez]

piemanz wrote...



I've not overlooked it at all.The mako makes a lot more sense than parachuting if you intend to travel a distance upon landing. That doesn't necessarily mean parachutes become redundant.

Again Consider Illos. They knew exactly where saren was they slipped in under the radar. They dropped the mako at substantial risk to persons inside. No parachute. If shep had a parachute why did he not employ it then?

also definition of Infantry
http://dictionary.re...browse/infantry
Spec ops is not excluded.

Modifié par darth_lopez, 10 avril 2011 - 06:11 .

[piemanz]

darth_lopez wrote...

piemanz wrote...



I've not overlooked it at all.The mako makes a lot more sense than parachuting if you intend to travel a distance upon landing. That doesn't necessarily mean parachutes become redundant.

Again Consider Illos. They knew exactly where saren was they slipped in under the radar. They dropped the mako at substantial risk to persons inside. No parachute. If shep had a parachute why did he not employ it then?

Maybe they fealt that the Mako was essential due to Saren having an army of geth protecting him.One thing the mako does give you is a **** load of firepower.

[Almostfaceman]

darth_lopez wrote...

We know from ME 1 that Armors in the ME universe can handle a various degree of extreme environments (thank you exploration with mako) They certaintly have  few problems as far as Radiation and Micro Meteor Impacts go. Nothing can really protect against leaks of the suit environment though. You're pretty much screwed. Lets not forget we have kinetic barriers that will stop high velocity objects from Seriously injuring us and if you are drifting at a speed of .0002 km/h toward a rock going .000003 km/h i doubt You're gonna feel a lot of pain on impact (equivalent of falling into pillows Loaded with magical super soft bunnies).

Hence why I called the suits a "stop-gap" measure.  They help a person survive, but they do not preclude the necessity for escape pods.

Again why are not all members of the crew seemingly given a suit then? Also if your ship lost Power Approching a city you are gonna have one hell of a time opening the air lock before impact. Even if it did lose power you could still probably use an escape pod(i'm sure modern life boats have a manual whinch) I'm 100% positive those have their own power supply and A manual launch mechanism.  No need to parachute when you have emergency drop pod.

I answered this question, but I'll answer it again.  The Normandy was surprise attacked.  It is very plausible for a wartime "red alert" setting to involve mandatory suit-wear if time permits for those crewmen to acquire their suits.

Technology exists right now that answers the air lock problem - explosive bolts.  Power out?  Can't reach an escape pod? Falling in an atmosphere?  Hit the Emergency Hatch Release - the door blows off and weee we jump out the door and parachute down.

Why did they not wear suits in the battle fo the citadel when it would've been most i mportant too?  IF you intend to say they had suits and they weren't wearing them for that battle (with ships being destroyed left right upside down) i would really liek to see some ingame or inlore proof that the entire crew had combat suits.

I'm not even sure what you're referring to at this point.  All my squad wore combat suits in the battle for the Citadel.

[darth_lopez]

piemanz wrote...

darth_lopez wrote...

piemanz wrote...



I've not overlooked it at all.The mako makes a lot more sense than parachuting if you intend to travel a distance upon landing. That doesn't necessarily mean parachutes become redundant.

Again Consider Illos. They knew exactly where saren was they slipped in under the radar. They dropped the mako at substantial risk to persons inside. No parachute. If shep had a parachute why did he not employ it then?

Maybe they fealt that the Mako was essential due to Saren having an army of geth protecting him.One thing the mako does give you is a **** load of firepower.

Shepard hasn't had any trouble killing a **** load of **** before on foot.

[piemanz]

darth_lopez wrote...

piemanz wrote...

darth_lopez wrote...

piemanz wrote...



I've not overlooked it at all.The mako makes a lot more sense than parachuting if you intend to travel a distance upon landing. That doesn't necessarily mean parachutes become redundant.

Again Consider Illos. They knew exactly where saren was they slipped in under the radar. They dropped the mako at substantial risk to persons inside. No parachute. If shep had a parachute why did he not employ it then?

Maybe they fealt that the Mako was essential due to Saren having an army of geth protecting him.One thing the mako does give you is a **** load of firepower.

Shepard hasn't had any trouble killing a **** load of **** before on foot.

No, but it's a lot easier in the Mako.

[Almostfaceman]

darth_lopez wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...

darth_lopez wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...

Well there's room for disagreement then, since you're making what are "to you" reasonable guesses. A reasonable guess for me (and I've been in the military, and no not behind a desk) is that a military 175 years into the future will possibly have a microframe parachute built-in for suits designed to survive atmospheric and space contingencies inherent in living aboard a spacecraft that can dwell in both atmospheric and space environments.

Still Highly doubtful. Tell Me What was the liklihood that You (if you were simply an infantry man fighting on the ground and not a paratrooper) Would require parachute? If you were in the navy(not a pilot) Would you require a parachute to jump off your boat?

If you were in the military you should have no problem answering that the  liklihood you needed a parachute as general infantry was immensly small. You were probably typically deployed by APC(in this case MAKO) Or gunship(BlackHawk as an example, Hind for Russians)  Not quite sure how marines are deployed though i would guess by typically the same ways. Sure we have paratrooper but they are trained to jump outta **** specifically. and All pilots would have a parchute (Joker did not He had an escape pod directly behind him though)

You're thinking in our-time concepts.  You cannot make assumptions about the needs of the military in the future and expect no-one to disagree with you.

I don't expect you to agree 100% with me But I'm no tmaking assumptions I'm making pretty good educated guesses based off our past experiences.

You keep mentioning ground troops - look I don't know any ground troops that we have currently that are trained in zero-gee tactics like Ashley mentions.  I don't know any that fly on spaceships.  I don't know any with magnetic boots - like Shep exhibited when he walked up the elevator in ME1.

Centrifugal Force. OR is it centripedal force? Teh assumption shep had magnetic boots has no real evidence. He could have been Clinging to the exact center off of the Citadel because of the Way the citadel maintains it's artificial gravity. I think.

edit:And in either case nothing is confirmed by the game. nor do we really have any tendencies we can look at to shed some light on the situation

I should just leave it as infantrymen. Besides do we ever see an example of Zero G Combat? (nope we don't)

I know that if I wanted to make a covert drop near a target without the mako, a parachute would come in handy - Normandy could drop me at high altitude and I could slip in.

Yet shepard never does that. Illos he risks crashign in the mako to make a landing. If he had a parachute he would not need to make that risk.

The centrifugal force you mention pressed people's feet to the plane 90% opposite of the wall of the elevator -otherwise people would be walking up the side of the elevator all the time.

Ilos requires a tank since we're fighting tons of geth - this does not preclude the handiness of parachutes for covert drops (that I've mentioned before).

I'm not sure why you mention we don't ever see zero gee combat - Ash mentions she trains for it.  So it's a part of the game universe.

[darth_lopez]

Almostfaceman wrote...

darth_lopez wrote...

We know from ME 1 that Armors in the ME universe can handle a various degree of extreme environments (thank you exploration with mako) They certaintly have  few problems as far as Radiation and Micro Meteor Impacts go. Nothing can really protect against leaks of the suit environment though. You're pretty much screwed. Lets not forget we have kinetic barriers that will stop high velocity objects from Seriously injuring us and if you are drifting at a speed of .0002 km/h toward a rock going .000003 km/h i doubt You're gonna feel a lot of pain on impact (equivalent of falling into pillows Loaded with magical super soft bunnies).

Hence why I called the suits a "stop-gap" measure.  They help a person survive, but they do not preclude the necessity for escape pods.

I may have jumpped the gun with that one. But it certaintly does devalue escape pods in atmosphere Substantially.

Technology exists right now that answers the air lock problem - explosive bolts.  Power out?  Can't reach an escape pod? Falling in an atmosphere?  Hit the Emergency Hatch Release - the door blows off and weee we jump out the door and parachute down.

I thought i mentioned manual Releases and how they'd be included in escape pods for safety sake. I don't see how Parachuting is better than emergency drop pod.  Located right next to the exit hatch. and/ Or conveniently through out the ship.

Why did they not wear suits in the battle fo the citadel when it would've been most i mportant too?  IF you intend to say they had suits and they weren't wearing them for that battle (with ships being destroyed left right upside down) i would really liek to see some ingame or inlore proof that the entire crew had combat suits.

I'm not even sure what you're referring to at this point.  All my squad wore combat suits in the battle for the Citadel.

All your squad members, Joker was not. This i would think implies that no suits exist for the remainder of the crew.

[darth_lopez]

piemanz wrote...

darth_lopez wrote...

piemanz wrote...

darth_lopez wrote...

piemanz wrote...



I've not overlooked it at all.The mako makes a lot more sense than parachuting if you intend to travel a distance upon landing. That doesn't necessarily mean parachutes become redundant.

Again Consider Illos. They knew exactly where saren was they slipped in under the radar. They dropped the mako at substantial risk to persons inside. No parachute. If shep had a parachute why did he not employ it then?

Maybe they fealt that the Mako was essential due to Saren having an army of geth protecting him.One thing the mako does give you is a **** load of firepower.

Shepard hasn't had any trouble killing a **** load of **** before on foot.

No, but it's a lot easier in the Mako.

True enough but it was also a situation where stealth would've been immensley useful

[darth_lopez]

Almostfaceman wrote...

darth_lopez wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...

darth_lopez wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...

Well there's room for disagreement then, since you're making what are "to you" reasonable guesses. A reasonable guess for me (and I've been in the military, and no not behind a desk) is that a military 175 years into the future will possibly have a microframe parachute built-in for suits designed to survive atmospheric and space contingencies inherent in living aboard a spacecraft that can dwell in both atmospheric and space environments.

Still Highly doubtful. Tell Me What was the liklihood that You (if you were simply an infantry man fighting on the ground and not a paratrooper) Would require parachute? If you were in the navy(not a pilot) Would you require a parachute to jump off your boat?

If you were in the military you should have no problem answering that the  liklihood you needed a parachute as general infantry was immensly small. You were probably typically deployed by APC(in this case MAKO) Or gunship(BlackHawk as an example, Hind for Russians)  Not quite sure how marines are deployed though i would guess by typically the same ways. Sure we have paratrooper but they are trained to jump outta **** specifically. and All pilots would have a parchute (Joker did not He had an escape pod directly behind him though)

You're thinking in our-time concepts.  You cannot make assumptions about the needs of the military in the future and expect no-one to disagree with you.

I don't expect you to agree 100% with me But I'm no tmaking assumptions I'm making pretty good educated guesses based off our past experiences.

You keep mentioning ground troops - look I don't know any ground troops that we have currently that are trained in zero-gee tactics like Ashley mentions.  I don't know any that fly on spaceships.  I don't know any with magnetic boots - like Shep exhibited when he walked up the elevator in ME1.

Centrifugal Force. OR is it centripedal force? Teh assumption shep had magnetic boots has no real evidence. He could have been Clinging to the exact center off of the Citadel because of the Way the citadel maintains it's artificial gravity. I think.

edit:And in either case nothing is confirmed by the game. nor do we really have any tendencies we can look at to shed some light on the situation

I should just leave it as infantrymen. Besides do we ever see an example of Zero G Combat? (nope we don't)

I know that if I wanted to make a covert drop near a target without the mako, a parachute would come in handy - Normandy could drop me at high altitude and I could slip in.

Yet shepard never does that. Illos he risks crashign in the mako to make a landing. If he had a parachute he would not need to make that risk.

The centrifugal force you mention pressed people's feet to the plane 90% opposite of the wall of the elevator -otherwise people would be walking up the side of the elevator all the time.

Centripetal Force. And it causes an object to gravitate orthogonally toward the center due to rotation. Also on the subject of the elevator it doesn't go the right way.  It's actually a really weird elevator.

Ilos requires a tank since we're fighting tons of geth - this does not preclude the handiness of parachutes for covert drops (that I've mentioned before).

No but it was a situation where someone who is supposed to be Spec Ops would obviously realize the hadniness of stealth and would, considering he's had no real problems before killing geth, likly forego the armro for a nice covert drop right ontop of saren.

I'm not sure why you mention we don't ever see zero gee combat - Ash mentions she trains for it.  So it's a part of the game universe.

It's a little sad we don't see it. Either way though Ash is still an Infantryman. not specifically a zero-gee shcok trooper.

Modifié par darth_lopez, 10 avril 2011 - 06:27 .

[Almostfaceman]

darth_lopez wrote...
*snip*

Look, you're quibbling at this point.  My points are all perfectly logical and probable in my opinion. 

If I'm fighting those four-legged Colossus Geth on the ground - I want the Mako handy.  Ship sensors tell me the enemy forces are advancing, I drop to stop them, the Mako is there for that.

My point about high-altitude covert parachute drops still stands, unless you cannot really imagine a scenario that this could be implemented - do I really have to draw you up a scenario?

The zero-gee point about Ash is that she has training not typical of an infantryman of this time period.  Don't read into it any more than that.

Modifié par Almostfaceman, 10 avril 2011 - 06:35 .

[Almostfaceman]

darth_lopez wrote...

*snip*

The force on the Presidium is centrifugal force.  People are not being steered toward the center of the Presidium, they are being forced to walk on the floor-plane of the Presidium.  People are not capable of walking up the side of the elevator.  Because of the spinning motion and the smaller diameter of the Presidium, its gravity is 1/3 that of the gravity on the ward arms, which operate in a larger diameter.

[darth_lopez]

Almostfaceman wrote...

darth_lopez wrote...
*snip*

Look, you're quibbling at this point.  My points are all perfectly logical and probable in my opinion. 

If I'm fighting those four-legged Colossus Geth on the ground - I want the Mako handy.  Ship sensors tell me the enemy forces are advancing, I drop to stop them, the Mako is there for that.

I already gave points that the mako would be handy However stealth would be equally handy here too. Whatever shepards actual reason for taking the mako i doubt we'll ever actually know. But Stealth and Brute force we both equally handy there.

My point about high-altitude covert parachute drops still stands, unless you cannot really imagine a scenario that this could be implemented - do I really have to draw you up a scenario?

Not in mass effect no i can't imagine a scenario. Real life there are plenty  But in Mass effect they don't really seem to need parachutes. they seemingly have frigates and drop ships for everything.  You could draw me up a scenario though if you think it would help your point.

The zero-gee point about Ash is that she has training not typical of an infantryman of this time period.  Don't read into it any more than that.

Her training is nto typical to this time period no But the zero-gee portion of her training still stems from practicality. It is practical in Mass Effect to train Troops in Zero G Fighting. Here It's not because why? They will never experience it.  I would think retro-boosters more likely at this point to be included in the armor some where or as an attachment for Zero G combat. But we never see zero g combat so it can't beconfirmed. What we do know is that the Make employs retro-boosters to slow decent instead of a parachute(surpised no one pointed that out until now)