546 réponses à ce sujet

[Zulu_DFA]

darth_lopez wrote...

squee913 wrote...


Actually, as prosecutors, you have to prove beyond doubt that there was NO WAY for Shep's body to survive impact. You would have to prove he was moving fast enough to burn up on re-entry. You can't.

actually you can :/ simple fact that things much larger than a Human body Have Burnt up in our atmospher just by driffting into it, shepards shields can barely stand radiation from the Sun on Heastrom, how are they supposed to survive what meterites can't? Then theres the fact that alcheras atmosphere is made fo methane and Ammonia, Methane is explosive.

The buring up is all about the trajectory of the object during re-entry. If the Normandy had assumed a geostationary position over Alchera before losing propulsion, then it (and Shepard) was just "gently" pulled down by Alchera's gravity. No burning up. A BioWare dev confirmed this was the case.

Still, Shepard falling out of the sky and coming to an abrupt stop at the end would equate being hit by a train traveling at some 200+ miles per hour. That probably could be handwaved by some steep ravine slope Shepard could hit with some really deep mushy snow at the bottom. With any luck, he might have not died instantly.

But the main problem is that the Blue Suns retrieval party came to Alchera WEEKS after the crash. By that time Shepard's brain would long be irrecoverable due to water crystalization and bursting of every single cell of it. There is simply now way around this. Therefore, Shepard had to be alive for a prolonged period of time after the crash, only failing moments before the Blue Suns arrived on the scene. Hence, HOW SHEPARD SURVIVED THE CRASH.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 13 avril 2011 - 04:24 .

[ADLegend21]

how did Arrival get to Shepard being dead? thjis has gone way OT *lights the Pacifen signal*

[Zulu_DFA]

ADLegend21 wrote...

how did Arrival get to Shepard being dead?

through the plot holes, naturally.

[Cypher0020]

watching his Arrival review right now.... I REALLY like his femshep....and regardless of opinions he has a really nice voice for giving reviews

[Fixers0]

Mesina2 wrote...

Fixers0 wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...

^Ah yes "Mass Effect comics"...

True. They are quite terrible!

What do you expect with Mac Walters.

Outstanding characters and big levels.

Big leves, like railroading in corridors in a space station and then forced into cover behind wais-high boxes in a mess hall, besides Mac Walter is a writer not a level designer.

Outstanding Characters, i would prefer to say, characters with a rich background, if they would be truly outstanding then, they would be more them just cannon fodder. 

[piemanz]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

darth_lopez wrote...

squee913 wrote...


Actually, as prosecutors, you have to prove beyond doubt that there was NO WAY for Shep's body to survive impact. You would have to prove he was moving fast enough to burn up on re-entry. You can't.

actually you can :/ simple fact that things much larger than a Human body Have Burnt up in our atmospher just by driffting into it, shepards shields can barely stand radiation from the Sun on Heastrom, how are they supposed to survive what meterites can't? Then theres the fact that alcheras atmosphere is made fo methane and Ammonia, Methane is explosive.

The buring up is all about the trajectory of the object during re-entry. If the Normandy had assumed a geostationary position over Alchera before losing propulsion, then it (and Shepard) was just "gently" pulled down by Alchera's gravity. No burning up. A BioWare dev confirmed this was the case.

Still, Shepard falling out of the sky and coming to an abrupt stop at the end would equate being hit by a train traveling at some 200+ miles per hour. That probably could be handwaved by some steep ravine slope Shepard could hit with some really deep mushy snow at the bottom. With any luck, he might have not died instantly.

But the main problem is that the Blue Suns retrieval party came to Alchera WEEKS after the crash. By that time Shepard's brain would long be irrecoverable due to water crystalization and bursting of every single cell of it. There is simply now way around this. Therefore, Shepard had to be alive for a prolonged period of time after the crash, only failing moments before the Blue Suns arrived on the scene. Hence, HOW SHEPARD SURVIVED THE CRASH.

It's always good to have a Bioware dev backing up your theory. There is no way Shep would be travelling fast enough to burn up on entry. I'm not sure what darth lopez means by bigger things have burnt up by drifting into the atmosphere. If he means jettisoned parts from a space shuttle, then you have to remember that these parts are jettisoned while the shuttle is orbiting at close to 18,000 mph.

As for sheps brain. I'm not sure where you're getting your info, but freezing would not cause every cell to burst. Sure there will be some damage and it's explained to some degree that they rebuilt Sheps neural pathways using organinc and inorganic material.

Modifié par piemanz, 13 avril 2011 - 08:53 .

[CroGamer002]

Fixers0 wrote...

Big leves, like railroading in corridors in a space station and then forced into cover behind wais-high boxes in a mess hall, besides Mac Walter is a writer not a level designer.

Outstanding Characters, i would prefer to say, characters with a rich background, if they would be truly outstanding then, they would be more them just cannon fodder. 

BIG LEVELS DUDE, BIG LEVELS!!!!!

And what the hell are you talking about characters and cannon fodder?

[CroGamer002]

Nashiktal wrote...

Good characters? Yes.

Big levels? What you smokin? Levels in ME1 were bigger than 2. 

BIG LEVELS DUDE, BIG LEVELS!!!!!

[atheelogos]

piemanz wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

darth_lopez wrote...

squee913 wrote...


Actually, as prosecutors, you have to prove beyond doubt that there was NO WAY for Shep's body to survive impact. You would have to prove he was moving fast enough to burn up on re-entry. You can't.

actually you can :/ simple fact that things much larger than a Human body Have Burnt up in our atmospher just by driffting into it, shepards shields can barely stand radiation from the Sun on Heastrom, how are they supposed to survive what meterites can't? Then theres the fact that alcheras atmosphere is made fo methane and Ammonia, Methane is explosive.

The buring up is all about the trajectory of the object during re-entry. If the Normandy had assumed a geostationary position over Alchera before losing propulsion, then it (and Shepard) was just "gently" pulled down by Alchera's gravity. No burning up. A BioWare dev confirmed this was the case.

Still, Shepard falling out of the sky and coming to an abrupt stop at the end would equate being hit by a train traveling at some 200+ miles per hour. That probably could be handwaved by some steep ravine slope Shepard could hit with some really deep mushy snow at the bottom. With any luck, he might have not died instantly.

But the main problem is that the Blue Suns retrieval party came to Alchera WEEKS after the crash. By that time Shepard's brain would long be irrecoverable due to water crystalization and bursting of every single cell of it. There is simply now way around this. Therefore, Shepard had to be alive for a prolonged period of time after the crash, only failing moments before the Blue Suns arrived on the scene. Hence, HOW SHEPARD SURVIVED THE CRASH.

As for sheps brain. I'm not sure where you're getting your info, but freezing would not cause every cell to burst. Sure there will be some damage and it's explained to some degree that they rebuilt Sheps neural pathways using organinc and inorganic material.

dude brain tissue exposed to a "thick atmosphere of methane and ammonia" would destroy all the data said brain holds.

[piemanz]

atheelogos wrote...

dude brain tissue exposed to a "thick atmosphere of methane and ammonia" would destroy all the data said brain holds.

Thats assuming Sheps brain was actually exposed to it. Since he/she was probably dead before even hitting the surface he wouldn't be breathing it in, and the planets temperature means he would freeze within a couple of hours which would also protect him against it.

[Fixers0]

Mesina2 wrote...

Fixers0 wrote...

Big leves, like railroading in corridors in a space station and then forced into cover behind wais-high boxes in a mess hall, besides Mac Walter is a writer not a level designer.

Outstanding Characters, i would prefer to say, characters with a rich background, if they would be truly outstanding then, they would be more them just cannon fodder. 

BIG LEVELS DUDE, BIG LEVELS!!!!!

And what the hell are you talking about characters and cannon fodder?

That proves nothing, Big levels do not equal quality, shooting around for 20 mintutes isn't that interesting.

All Characters a cannon fodder it's simple as that,

[squee913]

Fixers0 wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...

Fixers0 wrote...

Big leves, like railroading in corridors in a space station and then forced into cover behind wais-high boxes in a mess hall, besides Mac Walter is a writer not a level designer.

Outstanding Characters, i would prefer to say, characters with a rich background, if they would be truly outstanding then, they would be more them just cannon fodder. 

BIG LEVELS DUDE, BIG LEVELS!!!!!

And what the hell are you talking about characters and cannon fodder?

That proves nothing, Big levels do not equal quality, shooting around for 20 mintutes isn't that interesting.

All Characters a cannon fodder it's simple as that,

First of all, big levels have absolutely nothing to do with the writer. Secondly, none of my team was cannon fodder. I valued all of them... well, Jacob is debatable... Are you suggesting that just because they can die, they are cannon fodder? What kind of sense does that make? So, every soldier in the world is just cannon fodder? It just means you have to actually take risks and understand that you CAN"T use them as cannon fodder because they won't come back. If they were cannon fodder to you, that sounds more like a personal choice than a fault of the writer.

[CroGamer002]

Well I was asked what I expect from Mac so I gave an answer.

Sure big levels have nothing to do with writing, but I expect to happen. He said it, damn it!

Modifié par Mesina2, 13 avril 2011 - 10:40 .

[atheelogos]

piemanz wrote...

atheelogos wrote...

dude brain tissue exposed to a "thick atmosphere of methane and ammonia" would destroy all the data said brain holds.

Thats assuming Sheps brain was actually exposed to it. Since he/she was probably dead before even hitting the surface he wouldn't be breathing it in, and the planets temperature means he would freeze within a couple of hours which would also protect him against it.

lol no.... just no. Sheps suite was ripped open and you don't have to breath it for it to get into your body. Besides do you think Shep could hit the ground at those speeds and not be torn open? The atmosphere had plenty of ways in.

"he would freeze " Freezing almost always spits skin open. Ice in cells never bodes well.

[piemanz]

atheelogos wrote...

piemanz wrote...

atheelogos wrote...

dude brain tissue exposed to a "thick atmosphere of methane and ammonia" would destroy all the data said brain holds.

Thats assuming Sheps brain was actually exposed to it. Since he/she was probably dead before even hitting the surface he wouldn't be breathing it in, and the planets temperature means he would freeze within a couple of hours which would also protect him against it.

lol no.... just no. Sheps suite was ripped open and you don't have to breath it for it to get into your body. Besides do you think Shep could hit the ground at those speeds and not be torn open? The atmosphere had plenty of ways in.

"he would freeze " Freezing almost always spits skin open. Ice in cells never bodes well.

An oxygen leak does not = suit ripped open. Yes the atmosphere will enter through cuts but it's not going to be circulating around his body is it....he's dead.

[Fixers0]

squee913 wrote...

Fixers0 wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...

Fixers0 wrote...

Big leves, like railroading in corridors in a space station and then forced into cover behind wais-high boxes in a mess hall, besides Mac Walter is a writer not a level designer.

Outstanding Characters, i would prefer to say, characters with a rich background, if they would be truly outstanding then, they would be more them just cannon fodder. 

BIG LEVELS DUDE, BIG LEVELS!!!!!

And what the hell are you talking about characters and cannon fodder?

That proves nothing, Big levels do not equal quality, shooting around for 20 mintutes isn't that interesting.

All Characters a cannon fodder it's simple as that,

First of all, big levels have absolutely nothing to do with the writer. Secondly, none of my team was cannon fodder. I valued all of them... well, Jacob is debatable... Are you suggesting that just because they can die, they are cannon fodder? What kind of sense does that make? So, every soldier in the world is just cannon fodder? It just means you have to actually take risks and understand that you CAN"T use them as cannon fodder because they won't come back. If they were cannon fodder to you, that sounds more like a personal choice than a fault of the writer.

Because we don't no why we are recruiting people at all, we except for Mordin who is important to the part, all characters just work in the same way, with canned loyalty and recruitment, except for Legion,Miranda and Jacob who are encounter in the main plot.

[Bourne Endeavor]

squee913 wrote...

Actually, as prosecutors, you have to prove beyond doubt that there was NO WAY for Shep's body to survive impact. You would have to prove he was moving fast enough to burn up on re-entry. You can't. You cannot prove that we see him catch on fire since it could simply be cold gases reacting to his heated suit, or that he was moving fast enough to heat up the gas, but not fast enough for it to burn through the armor. You would have to prove that there was no way he could have fallen in such a way as to be recoverable. you can't. If you can show us evidence that there is no way possible for Shep to have made that landing intact, THEN the burden of proof will move. So far, the best you've done is say, well he could have been moving fast enough to burn up, and it is unlikely for him to survive that fall intact.
A prosecutor is not going to win a case by saying,

"That guy could have killed him, and it's unlikely someone else did it..."
Honestly, I'm with the idea that was are just shootin the breeze on a forum... but you brought it up.

The example you outlined does not represent what I posted. The prosecution would provide overwhelming scientific evidence that would suggest his body could not survive either scenario, let alone his brain be intact to rebuild an identical variation, which is the crux of this debate. Can the brain survive?

Now your immediate rebuttal will be we do not know if science has evolved to such an extent to claim the human body could sustain itself under those circumstances. Here is where we have our qualm. The game in no way offers anything to indicate this is probable despite ample opportunity and hence solidifies the argument it is a plot hole due to lack of exposition. When questions arise in the second act, it is the responsibility of that act to provide an answer, especially when of a contradictory nature. You boldly cite this as excellent writing, yet this is one of numerous instances where the questions are left to linger and handwaved aside.

What particularly irks me is when BioWare takes a jab at JRPGs for their stories and yet that very genre has handled resurrection better than they have. It would have required a mere minute or two of dialogue at best unless they wisely abandoned this plot angle in lieu of the more believable escape pod/coma design.

We are shooting the breeze on a forum. This is a debate and I opted to drive home why this specific scene lacks consistency in the narrative. You are free to deduce your own theories however Almostfaceman was essentially disregarding what the definition of a plot hole is. No one has to care about them but they were there regardless whether or not you wish to deny them.

Kooper said it best in another topic. The occasional slip is acceptable and often brought up for amusement sake; Miranda appearing after Jacob's loyalty mission despite potentially being dead for one. ME2 just steps well beyond occasional and has a plethora of them. The individual missions is where this game shines from a story perspective. The main plot frankly might fall short against Halo's.

squee913 wrote...

First of all, big levels have absolutely nothing to do with the writer. Secondly, none of my team was cannon fodder. I valued all of them... well, Jacob is debatable... Are you suggesting that just because they can die, they are cannon fodder? What kind of sense does that make? So, every soldier in the world is just cannon fodder? It just means you have to actually take risks and understand that you CAN"T use them as cannon fodder because they won't come back. If they were cannon fodder to you, that sounds more like a personal choice than a fault of the writer.

I believe he meant because they have no relevance in the plot, they are merely fodder or tag along buddies. Personally I would disagree - which I find immensely ironic because I've basically watched sides debate wise here - because I determine cannon fodder as generic grunt (no pun ) soldiers with no depth, personality were worth as fodder. When I play any RTS game much of my officers will fit this definition unless I roleplay them otherwise. In Total War, I couldn't care less about my sons so long as they win battles. My legion of troops are equally just numbers, fodder for my conquest. With the crew of ME2, not even remotely similar, hence why I have yet to complete a file where I kill off any of them.

... well not files I intend to keep. :innocent:

Modifié par Bourne Endeavor, 13 avril 2011 - 02:05 .

[Zulu_DFA]

piemanz wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

darth_lopez wrote...

squee913 wrote...


Actually, as prosecutors, you have to prove beyond doubt that there was NO WAY for Shep's body to survive impact. You would have to prove he was moving fast enough to burn up on re-entry. You can't.

actually you can :/ simple fact that things much larger than a Human body Have Burnt up in our atmospher just by driffting into it, shepards shields can barely stand radiation from the Sun on Heastrom, how are they supposed to survive what meterites can't? Then theres the fact that alcheras atmosphere is made fo methane and Ammonia, Methane is explosive.

The buring up is all about the trajectory of the object during re-entry. If the Normandy had assumed a geostationary position over Alchera before losing propulsion, then it (and Shepard) was just "gently" pulled down by Alchera's gravity. No burning up. A BioWare dev confirmed this was the case.

Still, Shepard falling out of the sky and coming to an abrupt stop at the end would equate being hit by a train traveling at some 200+ miles per hour. That probably could be handwaved by some steep ravine slope Shepard could hit with some really deep mushy snow at the bottom. With any luck, he might have not died instantly.

But the main problem is that the Blue Suns retrieval party came to Alchera WEEKS after the crash. By that time Shepard's brain would long be irrecoverable due to water crystalization and bursting of every single cell of it. There is simply now way around this. Therefore, Shepard had to be alive for a prolonged period of time after the crash, only failing moments before the Blue Suns arrived on the scene. Hence, HOW SHEPARD SURVIVED THE CRASH.

It's always good to have a Bioware dev backing up your theory. There is no way Shep would be travelling fast enough to burn up on entry. I'm not sure what darth lopez means by bigger things have burnt up by drifting into the atmosphere. If he means jettisoned parts from a space shuttle, then you have to remember that these parts are jettisoned while the shuttle is orbiting at close to 18,000 mph.

As for sheps brain. I'm not sure where you're getting your info, but freezing would not cause every cell to burst. Sure there will be some damage and it's explained to some degree that they rebuilt Sheps neural pathways using organinc and inorganic material.

He wasn't exactly backing up my theory, just stating the obvious: Shepard (and the Normandy pieces) would not burn up in the atmosphere.

As for the brain. Catch two mice, kill them. Take one and study its brain cells under a microscope. Put the second one in a freezer while you're messing with the first. After a few hours study the brain of the second one.

There is a of course a way to prevent the glaciation of the brain (see Cryonics), but it involves a compex procedure in lab conditions and special chemicals. You can, of course, say that Shepard's furure fancy suit maybe had such a built-in system, but somehow it's far less plausible, than it having a simple self-seal capability (like the Quarians' suits have, according to Kal'Reegar, and like any space combat suit should be designed to have), which, contrary to popular belief, prevented Shepard from dying in that cutscene  => Mako theory.

And BTW, @darth_lopez. Shepard's shields, aka kinetic barriers, can't stand radiation, heat or energy weapons at all. The gameplay mechanic of the Tali recruitment mission is just that - a lore-breaching gameplay mechanic, a "plot hole", if you will.

[piemanz]

Zulu_DFA wrote...


He wasn't exactly backing up my theory, just stating the obvious: Shepard (and the Normandy pieces) would not burn up in the atmosphere.

No, but he was agreeing with what i've been saying , and as you may know the obvious is not always obvious around here.

I'm not saying there was no brain damage, there must have been or they wouldnt have needed to rebuild sheps neural pathways.

Modifié par piemanz, 13 avril 2011 - 05:28 .

[packardbell]

He' sounds like a freaking Elcor.

[Destroy Raiden_]

It was OK this round not as funny or thought provoking as the others the only real thing to me was like yeah now that I think about it was weird is the point made about shep not being strapped down and he gave a scene idea as to shep could've been struggling to get free.

I thought it was odd shep wakes up 1/2 second later is leaping off the table and going commander falcon on the guards asses but he couldn't take their guns?

I found more but I wasnt' soo nit picky as all these scenes were reused shep kept say we or they found us some things like that you should let slid.

As are as what I thought about the whole thing in general I already told BW but overall I liked arrival and think everyone is being too nit picky on it.

[darth_lopez]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

darth_lopez wrote...

squee913 wrote...


Actually, as prosecutors, you have to prove beyond doubt that there was NO WAY for Shep's body to survive impact. You would have to prove he was moving fast enough to burn up on re-entry. You can't.

actually you can :/ simple fact that things much larger than a Human body Have Burnt up in our atmospher just by driffting into it, shepards shields can barely stand radiation from the Sun on Heastrom, how are they supposed to survive what meterites can't? Then theres the fact that alcheras atmosphere is made fo methane and Ammonia, Methane is explosive.

The buring up is all about the trajectory of the object during re-entry. If the Normandy had assumed a geostationary position over Alchera before losing propulsion, then it (and Shepard) was just "gently" pulled down by Alchera's gravity. No burning up. A BioWare dev confirmed this was the case.

Still, Shepard falling out of the sky and coming to an abrupt stop at the end would equate being hit by a train traveling at some 200+ miles per hour. That probably could be handwaved by some steep ravine slope Shepard could hit with some really deep mushy snow at the bottom. With any luck, he might have not died instantly.

But the main problem is that the Blue Suns retrieval party came to Alchera WEEKS after the crash. By that time Shepard's brain would long be irrecoverable due to water crystalization and bursting of every single cell of it. There is simply now way around this. Therefore, Shepard had to be alive for a prolonged period of time after the crash, only failing moments before the Blue Suns arrived on the scene. Hence, HOW SHEPARD SURVIVED THE CRASH.

Unaware that devs made comment in this, and i'm no physicit i came to the same conclusion most people who just go about their lives and look up at the sky at night from time to time would've .

Furthermore i don't beleive my statement and quote actually proved anything, infact i'm pretty sure it was the opposite, Convert 200 mph(assmued maximum speed) to Kilometers per second and figure out how many degrees Kelvin his suit was at (apparently degrees kelvin= kmps)(i don't believe it was too hot at all). HOwever it wasn't until like last night i realized my error

I do doubt his Terminal Velocity was some 200+ mph though. But we have no way of knowing all the factors we need to calculated. Although i'm pretty certain it's inline relativ to eartsh (122-200 depending on Weight and i believe the distance fallen)

Also unaware of what time he was recovered.

And BTW, @darth_lopez. Shepard's shields, aka kinetic barriers, can't stand radiation, heat or energy weapons at all. The gameplay mechanic of the Tali recruitment mission is just that - a lore-breaching gameplay mechanic, a "plot hole", if you will.

I believe that was my point. We know for a fact that Sheps suit is very susceptible to enviro. Hazards. both in ME 1 (unless it's a survivor or liberator if i remember correctly) and in ME 2 there are cases where planets with environmental extremes will kill you if left exposed for too long. Haestrum being a clear example of radiation, Xawin being a clear example of Cold. There is a planet in artemis tau that serves as adequate example of Heat and another for preasure.  We know for a fact that Sheps suit is immensly vulnerable to such hazards.

I'm not entirely sure how you see talis recruitment mission on heastrom as "lore breaching" as i've never seen it explicity stated that Kinetic barriers can withstand irradiation (although i believe i see how the idea came about (Bombardment of hyper fast radioactive particles right?))

Modifié par darth_lopez, 14 avril 2011 - 05:54 .