546 réponses à ce sujet

[piemanz]

aimlessgun wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

aimlessgun wrote...

It should be recognized though, if people saw something as a plothole, "it really isn't, let me explain!" is no excuse for a writer. Their failure of perception is a failure on the writer's part to communicate effectively.

OK, but what if it's because those people who failed to perceive just aren't very bright? 

Yes. If "never leave anything up to the imagination" becomes the new default rule for all media, I guess I'm going to have to go back to reading Shakespeare. Ugh.

If all plot points must be so transparent that the dumbest person who could ever watch your movie will instantly understand what is going on, it's very difficult to be subtle. That's how you get Twilight.

There's a difference between something that is subtle, and something that is unclear/confusing and can easily be interpreted in a different manner.

If you're knocked out of a story by a 'huh?' moment, and you have to go through some convoluted rationalization that is entirely outside the story to get it to work, that is a problem with the story. If the story actually gave you hints so you could understand this and you missed them, then it might be your fault.

The thing is, it seems people look at ME2 as a game rather than a sequal in what is a trilogy.If you want everything to make sense then you're not really understanding the point of the game, you're not understanding how it ties in from mass effect 1 and you're not understanding it's part in what will only be a complete story when ME3 is finished.

Like i said, you can blame the writers all you like but if you can't grasp the very basic fact that ME2 is simply the second chapter in a whole story then theres not a lot they can do.

[Aiten89]

None of the people discrediting his points have even mentioned specific things he has said. Quote a couple and think of ways he is incorrect.

I have watched all of Smudboys and Squees videos. They both have valid opinions and at one time or the other have both refuted the others point.
Mass Effect is a great game with a good fun plot however I find it hard to understand when people seem to think it lived up to its potential. It has its flaws and could have been better but that does not mean it is garbage.

Anyway Arrival was okay but I agree with smud on a few points and disagree on a few others. It certainly was no LotSB.

[Il Divo]

Aiten89 wrote...

None of the people discrediting his points have even mentioned specific things he has said. Quote a couple and think of ways he is incorrect.

The problem is not necessarily what he says, but the lack of overall substance to his video.

Smud's ME2 plot analysis was incredibly fun to watch because he combined intelligent criticisms with a good amount of humor. Sure, it got nitpicky, but the majority of his criticisms had to do with the bigger issues (Shuttle to nowhere, resurrection, human reaper, etc).

Dlc or not, Smud spends far more time on the nitpicks and snarky humor than on the substance that his previous videos contained.

Ex: His argument against Shepard going in alone, Shepard visiting Kelson's lab, or even the timer up above her base.

Modifié par Il Divo, 07 avril 2011 - 03:03 .

[BlackwindTheCommander]

He used to make excellent points, but now hes just attacking the series. Hes become the youtube equivalent of Fox News. There may be some truth to what he says but its so mixed up in bias and slander that its hard to get the information any more.

[JamieCOTC]

One of the main points smudboy seems to constantly miss is that, for whatever reason, the Reapers want Shepard alive. Arrival is no different. Still, he has a valid points. Another point where he is incorrect is in paying Seth Green $50.00 for one line. IIRC, it doesn't work that way. BW would have to pay him a set fee no matter how many lines he said. Still, the criticism is valid. They could have just reused some old lines.

Arrival is fun to play and it has some interesting implications, but it ultimately fails because it should have been a full on LotSB style mission and not a little side quest, which is what we got.

[Bourne Endeavor]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

aimlessgun wrote...

It should be recognized though, if people saw something as a plothole, "it really isn't, let me explain!" is no excuse for a writer. Their failure of perception is a failure on the writer's part to communicate effectively.

OK, but what if it's because those people who failed to perceive just aren't very bright? 

Yes. If "never leave anything up to the imagination" becomes the new default rule for all media, I guess I'm going to have to go back to reading Shakespeare. Ugh.

If all plot points must be so transparent that the dumbest person who could ever watch your movie will instantly understand what is going on, it's very difficult to be subtle. That's how you get Twilight.

I entered into a debate a while back on GameFaqs - yes I know, bad idea - where this became the primary defense for Shepard's revival, Mordin pulling the plot device out of his ass, Cerberus/TIM... and everything before I just washed my hands. Imagination is fine and I would be more than willing to overlook relatively minor inconsistencies in the narrative however ME2's main plot is a contrived mess. So much wasted potential because BioWare concluded people prefer shooting faceless mooks.

JamieCOTC wrote...

One of the main points smudboy seems to constantly miss is that, for whatever reason, the Reapers want Shepard alive. Arrival is no different. Still, he has a valid points. Another point where he is incorrect is in paying Seth Green $50.00 for one line. IIRC, it doesn't work that way. BW would have to pay him a set fee no matter how many lines he said. Still, the criticism is valid. They could have just reused some old lines.

Arrival is fun to play and it has some interesting implications, but it ultimately fails because it should have been a full on LotSB style mission and not a little side quest, which is what we got.

While his assumption is undoubtedly incorrect. I recall reading voice actors work via a hourly rate and are relatively underpaid; the average salary not exceeding 50k. So even for a well known actor, it is hardly breaking the purse strings to bring in Seth Green for a few hours. Either way, recycled work would have been sufficient.

For the video itself. What I did notice is how frequent BioWare reused aspects of ME2 and the indication of how moronic Shepard is. The most glaring being the Jack reference. Shepard fell for the exact same dupe in nearly identical fashion. Regardless, my estimation is smudboy has simply reached the point where ME2's plotholes have become comical in their abundance. So what's the point?

[lastpatriot]

squee913 wrote...

Your banner is awesome!  And kinda creepy... 

I'm all about being creepy my good sir.

[Tamahome560]

*facepalm*

Watched it. Regret it. He makes couple of points that do make sense but most of the review makes little to no sense to me. Though everyone has the right to their opinion.

[magnuskn]

Saphra Deden wrote...

squee913 wrote...

You know, I take it back... jokes are great, but only when they are related to a point. This feels like he is just trying way too hard to be funny. It just get worse and worse..... I finally get the feeling that he is just trying to show that he can be funnier than me.... Not that that is hard, but....

Stop obsessing over him. You'd do a better job defending ME2 if you focused your videos on explaining why the game is good and why it works and not ever mentioning Smudboy at all. If you did it that way people would draw their own conclusions and the truth in your vision would be clear for all to see.

+1

Squee, I enjoyed your videos counterpointing Smudboys drivel, but I think that you should do a review of the game yourself, not just answering points another person made.

Also, although I enjoy the way you do commentary, I really can't watch your "Let's play" Mass Effect videos, because you are doing them with another person and the constant giggling which apparently is necessary to bridge the awkwardness of that is killing me.

Modifié par magnuskn, 07 avril 2011 - 05:36 .

[aimlessgun]

piemanz wrote...

aimlessgun wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

aimlessgun wrote...

It should be recognized though, if people saw something as a plothole, "it really isn't, let me explain!" is no excuse for a writer. Their failure of perception is a failure on the writer's part to communicate effectively.

OK, but what if it's because those people who failed to perceive just aren't very bright? 

Yes. If "never leave anything up to the imagination" becomes the new default rule for all media, I guess I'm going to have to go back to reading Shakespeare. Ugh.

If all plot points must be so transparent that the dumbest person who could ever watch your movie will instantly understand what is going on, it's very difficult to be subtle. That's how you get Twilight.

There's a difference between something that is subtle, and something that is unclear/confusing and can easily be interpreted in a different manner.

If you're knocked out of a story by a 'huh?' moment, and you have to go through some convoluted rationalization that is entirely outside the story to get it to work, that is a problem with the story. If the story actually gave you hints so you could understand this and you missed them, then it might be your fault.

The thing is, it seems people look at ME2 as a game rather than a sequal in what is a trilogy.If you want everything to make sense then you're not really understanding the point of the game, you're not understanding how it ties in from mass effect 1 and you're not understanding it's part in what will only be a complete story when ME3 is finished.

Like i said, you can blame the writers all you like but if you can't grasp the very basic fact that ME2 is simply the second chapter in a whole story then theres not a lot they can do.

I don't see viewing ME2 out of trilogy context as the main issue in most of the problems people mention. But let's not get into that discussion here.

You cannot just blame the writers. But you also cannot just blame the viewers. On this forum most people seem to veer into one ridiculous extreme or the other: either the writers are a bunch of idiots, or the writers can do no wrong. BOTH the writers and individual viewers screw up, and I'm tired of people who pretend otherwise.

Modifié par aimlessgun, 07 avril 2011 - 05:35 .

[piemanz]

aimlessgun wrote...

piemanz wrote...

aimlessgun wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

aimlessgun wrote...

It should be recognized though, if people saw something as a plothole, "it really isn't, let me explain!" is no excuse for a writer. Their failure of perception is a failure on the writer's part to communicate effectively.

OK, but what if it's because those people who failed to perceive just aren't very bright? 

Yes. If "never leave anything up to the imagination" becomes the new default rule for all media, I guess I'm going to have to go back to reading Shakespeare. Ugh.

If all plot points must be so transparent that the dumbest person who could ever watch your movie will instantly understand what is going on, it's very difficult to be subtle. That's how you get Twilight.

There's a difference between something that is subtle, and something that is unclear/confusing and can easily be interpreted in a different manner.

If you're knocked out of a story by a 'huh?' moment, and you have to go through some convoluted rationalization that is entirely outside the story to get it to work, that is a problem with the story. If the story actually gave you hints so you could understand this and you missed them, then it might be your fault.

The thing is, it seems people look at ME2 as a game rather than a sequal in what is a trilogy.If you want everything to make sense then you're not really understanding the point of the game, you're not understanding how it ties in from mass effect 1 and you're not understanding it's part in what will only be a complete story when ME3 is finished.

Like i said, you can blame the writers all you like but if you can't grasp the very basic fact that ME2 is simply the second chapter in a whole story then theres not a lot they can do.

I don't see viewing ME2 out of trilogy context as the main issue in most of the problems people mention. But let's not get into that discussion here.

You cannot just blame the writers. But you also cannot just blame the viewers. On this forum most people seem to veer into one ridiculous extreme or the other: either the writers are a bunch of idiots, or the writers can do no wrong. BOTH the writers and individual viewers screw up, and I'm tired of people who pretend otherwise.

I'll just say this.

I think when ME3 is done and dusted a lot of people will appreciate just how good a sequal ME2 really was.

[aimlessgun]

Firstly, I hope you are correct.

But people can have different opinions on whether or not that makes up for deficiencies they perceived in the 2nd game. I'm tempted to go on about this but it's a terrible idea when ME3 isn't even out

[Whatever42]

iakus wrote...

But aside from that, how did you like the reviiew?

Oh, I don't watch smudboy reviews anymore. Its basically for the same reason I don't watch Ebert reviews - the reviewer doesn't review the piece from any angle I would regard as useful.

If I want to draw some sort of extistential meaning from every movie I watched, I would watch Ebert. If I was obsessive about any possible plotholes, I would watch Smudboy.

Now, if you were to do reviews, I would be far more interested.

[JKoopman]

piemanz wrote...

squee913 wrote...

Autoclave wrote...

I don't understand people that defend so vehemently the Mass Effect 2 plot. People like you regard smudboy as some sort of heretic that dared to raise against your religion. 

Why cannot you just admit it to yourself that ME2 has a fantastic gameplay and a crappy plot? You are trying to see ME2 as the ultimate gaming experience and feel coerced to defend whatever inconsistency the game is throwing at you. 

Probably because... try to grasp this concept... a lot of use actually like the plot. Sure it has it's flaws, but it is still a great story. 
Here is something that might be even harder to grasp... Not everyone has the same opinion as you. Some people can see the exact same thing you do and come to a different conclusion. And you know what? That does not make them, fanboys, religious fanatics, or even less intelligent. It just makes them normal.

This.

The plot is actually very good if you spend your time trying to understand it filling in the blanks with your own made-up rationalizations and fanfictions rather than ripping it apart and disecting it.Most of the people who complain about it don't seem to understand whats going on in my opinion.You can blame the writers all you like but ultimately it's not their problem if you can't grasp the bigger picture.

That said, i found this review quite humerous.

I went ahead and fixed that for you.

You can't "understand" something that isn't there, and inventing your own rationalizations to fill in the gaps and plotholes in the narrative isn't an example of a writer being clever or subtle. You seem to be making the argument that the people who find fault with ME2's plot are simply too dumb to understand it, whereas I would make the case that the people who take no exception to ME2's plot are simply too dumb to understand what's wrong with it.

Modifié par JKoopman, 07 avril 2011 - 06:34 .

[piemanz]

JKoopman wrote...

piemanz wrote...

squee913 wrote...

Autoclave wrote...

I don't understand people that defend so vehemently the Mass Effect 2 plot. People like you regard smudboy as some sort of heretic that dared to raise against your religion. 

Why cannot you just admit it to yourself that ME2 has a fantastic gameplay and a crappy plot? You are trying to see ME2 as the ultimate gaming experience and feel coerced to defend whatever inconsistency the game is throwing at you. 

Probably because... try to grasp this concept... a lot of use actually like the plot. Sure it has it's flaws, but it is still a great story. 
Here is something that might be even harder to grasp... Not everyone has the same opinion as you. Some people can see the exact same thing you do and come to a different conclusion. And you know what? That does not make them, fanboys, religious fanatics, or even less intelligent. It just makes them normal.

This.

The plot is actually very good if you spend your time trying to understand it filling in the blanks with your own made-up rationalizations and fanfictions rather than ripping it apart and disecting it.Most of the people who complain about it don't seem to understand whats going on in my opinion.You can blame the writers all you like but ultimately it's not their problem if you can't grasp the bigger picture.

That said, i found this review quite humerous.

I went ahead and fixed that for you.

You can't "understand" something that isn't there, and inventing your own rationalizations to fill in the gaps and plotholes in the narrative isn't an example of a writer being clever or subtle. You seem to be making the argument that the people who complain about ME2's plot are simply too dumb to understand it, whereas I would make the case that the people who take no exception to ME2's plot are simply too dumb to understand what's wrong with it.

Honestly, i'm not intrested in getting into another debate, i think me and you know exactly where we stand.

I'm not saying people are too dumb to understand it at all, i'm saying they simply fail at seeing the big picture.If you're reading a book and you read 2/3rds of it, would you expect to know how it ends or how certain elements that you do know of all tie in?.No of course not, thats my point.

Now plot holes are a totally different matter, but i think i covered that with you in extreme detail already so theres not much point in going into it again.

[JKoopman]

piemanz wrote...

JKoopman wrote...

piemanz wrote...

squee913 wrote...

Autoclave wrote...

I don't understand people that defend so vehemently the Mass Effect 2 plot. People like you regard smudboy as some sort of heretic that dared to raise against your religion. 

Why cannot you just admit it to yourself that ME2 has a fantastic gameplay and a crappy plot? You are trying to see ME2 as the ultimate gaming experience and feel coerced to defend whatever inconsistency the game is throwing at you. 

Probably because... try to grasp this concept... a lot of use actually like the plot. Sure it has it's flaws, but it is still a great story. 
Here is something that might be even harder to grasp... Not everyone has the same opinion as you. Some people can see the exact same thing you do and come to a different conclusion. And you know what? That does not make them, fanboys, religious fanatics, or even less intelligent. It just makes them normal.

This.

The plot is actually very good if you spend your time trying to understand it filling in the blanks with your own made-up rationalizations and fanfictions rather than ripping it apart and disecting it.Most of the people who complain about it don't seem to understand whats going on in my opinion.You can blame the writers all you like but ultimately it's not their problem if you can't grasp the bigger picture.

That said, i found this review quite humerous.

I went ahead and fixed that for you.

You can't "understand" something that isn't there, and inventing your own rationalizations to fill in the gaps and plotholes in the narrative isn't an example of a writer being clever or subtle. You seem to be making the argument that the people who complain about ME2's plot are simply too dumb to understand it, whereas I would make the case that the people who take no exception to ME2's plot are simply too dumb to understand what's wrong with it.

Honestly, i'm not intrested in getting into another debate, i think me and you know exactly where we stand.

I'm not saying people are too dumb to understand it at all, i'm saying they simply fail at seeing the big picture.If you're reading a book and you read 2/3rds of it, would you expect to know how it ends or how certain elements that you do know of all tie in?.No of course not, thats my point.

Now plot holes are a totally different matter, but i think i covered that with you in extreme detail already so theres not much point in going into it again.

Okay, fair enough. But how can you know that the plot is "very good" if you've only read 2/3rds of it?

I've said it multiple times before and I'll say it once more again, if ME3 comes along and fixes by way of exposition and elaboration everything that's wrong with ME2's plot, that'll be great. I'd love to have my faith restored in what had been my favorite franchise. But the way I see it, there's probably less than a 1% chance of that happening. ME2 went off on some tangent of a story, and that story is now concluded. ME3 will have it's own issues to deal with, and I find it extremely unlikely that it'll take the time to go back and explain the entire plot of the previous game. After all, how often was ME2 really relevant to the plot of ME1?

[Almostfaceman]

JKoopman wrote...

Okay, fair enough. But how can you know that the plot is "very good" if you've only read 2/3rds of it?

I've said it multiple times before and I'll say it once more again, if ME3 comes along and fixes by way of exposition and elaboration everything that's wrong with ME2's plot, that'll be great. I'd love to have my faith restored in what had been my favorite franchise. But the way I see it, there's probably less than a 1% chance of that happening. ME2 went off on some tangent of a story, and that story is now concluded. ME3 will have it's own issues to deal with, and I find it extremely unlikely that it'll take the time to go back and explain the entire plot of the previous game. After all, how often was ME2 really relevant to the plot of ME1?

Ah yes, and then it seems to come down to the "glass half full" and "glass half empty" situation.

[piemanz]

JKoopman wrote...

Okay, fair enough. But how can you know that the plot is "very good" if you've only read 2/3rds of it?

I've said it multiple times before and I'll say it once more again, if ME3 comes along and fixes by way of exposition and elaboration everything that's wrong with ME2's plot, that'll be great. I'd love to have my faith restored in what had been my favorite franchise. But the way I see it, there's probably less than a 1% chance of that happening. ME2 went off on some tangent of a story, and that story is now concluded. ME3 will have it's own issues to deal with, and I find it extremely unlikely that it'll take the time to go back and explain the entire plot of the previous game. After all, how often was ME2 really relevant to the plot of ME1?

If you take the time to look at ME2's plot in a positive way rather than focusing on what you perceive to be the bad stuff, then you can already see what elements could have big implications in ME3. Of course i don't know this for sure but like i said you can't know for sure because the story is not finished.

I'm not really sure how you didn't see any tie in from ME1, Reapers??.I mean, what more tie in do you need?.You could also argue the whole ME universe is a tie in from ME1.I'm not really sure how you see the ME2 plot as a tangent either, i mean the collectors (formaly protheans) were taking human colonists to build a Reaper (which we can only assume is a bad sign for humanity as a whole).How the hell is this a tangent?

Modifié par piemanz, 07 avril 2011 - 07:13 .

[Anacronian Stryx]

squee913 wrote...
Probably because... try to grasp this concept... a lot of use actually like the plot. Sure it has it's flaws, but it is still a great story. 

Honestly i have been wanting to ask you this for some time, Do you know the difference between plot and story?

[Whatever42]

Saphra Deden wrote...

ME2 should have a well structured plot regardless of its place in the trilogy. ME3 can't 'fix' it in that regard.

ME2 does have a well-structured plot. The main story is just a little weak and overshadowed by the strong character stories.

[Ty2011]

Hmmm.. don't know who this "smudboy" is or why he deserves his own thread. But I have to agree the review wasn't good. Just sounded like a bunch of nerdrage to me. Too much complaining, too much bias and no decent points.

Modifié par Ty2011, 07 avril 2011 - 07:09 .

[piemanz]

Anacronian Stryx wrote...

squee913 wrote...
Probably because... try to grasp this concept... a lot of use actually like the plot. Sure it has it's flaws, but it is still a great story. 

Honestly i have been wanting to ask you this for some time, Do you know the difference between plot and story?

Theres a plot and overarching plot, you can argue that the plot is disjointed, but it's going to seem that way if you think of all the character missions as a story instead of a diversion within the plot.

Modifié par piemanz, 07 avril 2011 - 07:18 .

[aimlessgun]

Now, we have Saphra expressing a critical opinion. The important thing to note is that it cannot be 'wrong'. Someone's experience of a piece of entertainment is what it is, negative or positive.

A writer has to decide whether or not they value the reaction of that person. If many people share the same negative reaction, a writer may want to take the criticism to heart and try to change things. But it comes down to knowing your audience and also knowing what you want as a writer. So it really is Bioware's right to set their own goals in this regard and write to them. But if people perceive the end product as crap, they cannot be wrong about their experience. Those people were displeased and Bioware failed them. Whether or not that matters to Bioware or to anyone else is what would be up for debate.

(as for improving someone's experience retrospectively via arguing with them on the forums, whether or not that ever works is questionable, though plausible esp. wrt to future playthroughs)

Modifié par aimlessgun, 07 avril 2011 - 07:18 .