546 réponses à ce sujet

[Whatever42]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

ME2 does have a well-structured plot.

No, it doesn't. It's a mess. The plot may still be entertaining, but it's not put together well.

Sure it's well put together.

This series is put together where you first work for the paragon faction, you then work for the renegade faction, and in game three you're on your own.

So in game #1, you get the story rolling, meet the council, get your ship, recruit your crew, do a bunch of side missions, do some main missions to learn where the action is doing down, and then the big finale. During that time, you can be paragon and hug the council whenever the opportunity presents itself, or you can be a renegade and insult the council and hang up on them alot. At the end, you can save them or kill them.

So in game #2, you start with a hard reset through your death and ressurection, you meet TIM, get your ship, recruit your crew, do a bunch of side missions (loyalty missions for the most part), do some main missions where you learn where the action is going down, and then the big finale. During that time, you can be renegade and make kissy faces at TIM or you can be a paragon and insult TIM whenever possible. At the end, you can give TIM the biggest prize of his life or you can royally screw him and laugh in his face.

Both games have some plotholes.

The difference is more in the story elements. In #1 you had visions, convesations with Saren, Spectre status, conversations with Sovereign, nuclear holocaut. You learned about the Reapers, about the protheans, and you ended with an epic space battle where you became the biggest hero in the goddam galaxy. The side mission were mostly useless crap but the main story was awesome.

In #2, you ran through a bunch of collector vessels learning about stuff. The collectors turned out to be a pretty dull enemy. You do learn a bit more about indoctriantion fields and the fate of the protheans but its pretty slim compared to ME1. Sure, its middle chapter syndrome but its also a litle unexciting. The sidemissions were freaking awesome but oddly, that just highlighted the weak story elements of the main story.

But to say it was all a mess is seriously overstating things. It was fine and well organized.

[squee913]

magnuskn wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

squee913 wrote...

You know, I take it back... jokes are great, but only when they are related to a point. This feels like he is just trying way too hard to be funny. It just get worse and worse..... I finally get the feeling that he is just trying to show that he can be funnier than me.... Not that that is hard, but....

Stop obsessing over him. You'd do a better job defending ME2 if you focused your videos on explaining why the game is good and why it works and not ever mentioning Smudboy at all. If you did it that way people would draw their own conclusions and the truth in your vision would be clear for all to see.

+1

Squee, I enjoyed your videos counterpointing Smudboys drivel, but I think that you should do a review of the game yourself, not just answering points another person made.

Also, although I enjoy the way you do commentary, I really can't watch your "Let's play" Mass Effect videos, because you are doing them with another person and the constant giggling which apparently is necessary to bridge the awkwardness of that is killing me.

Ahh, you should watch the solo LP then. I have a Let's Play of 1 and 2 where it is just me with no guests. You might like that one more since it is less about conversation, and more about the game. As for making a review; as I said I did a play-through of the entire game solo, where I spend a lot of the time talking about why I like the game. That took a lot more time and effort than anything I did to refute Smudboy. Hell, I even point out flaws when I see them. Can't get a more existence review than that 

[piemanz]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

But to say it was all a mess is seriously overstating things. It was fine and well organized.

No, it isn't. Smudboy has demonstrated this perfectly.

We have characters that have no relation to the plot. We are told to build a team but never told what we are building it for. Shepard begins calling this a suicide mission long before we are ever told of any suicide mission. Shepard and TIM talk about Harbringer even though in the story neither of them has ever communicated with him, much less been told of his name.

The plot is lazy and full of holes. It is not made well. It's entertaining, I'll grant it that, but is still sloppily written and organized.

I don't think i played the same game as you...this is the ME2 forums right?

Modifié par piemanz, 07 avril 2011 - 07:26 .

[Dean_the_Young]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Man I wish I knew how to make internet videos.

Maybe... I should learn? I have iMovie!

For what it's worth, I prefer the mystique and being able to imagine a strong, wise voice with just a hint of playful coyness hiding underneath.

[Fiery Phoenix]

Saphra Deden is secretly Smudboy.

You heard it here first!

Modifié par Fiery Phoenix, 07 avril 2011 - 07:28 .

[CroGamer002]

Saphra Deden wrote...

piemanz wrote...

I don't think i played the same game as you...This is the ME2 forums right?

We both played the same game, but only one of us bothered to analyze what we were presented with. That's where your confusion is coming from.

[piemanz]

Fiery Phoenix wrote...

Saphra Deden is secretly Smudboy.

You heard it here first!

That would explain a lot

[Almostfaceman]

Saphra Deden wrote...

piemanz wrote...

I don't think i played the same game as you...This is the ME2 forums right?

We both played the same game, but only one of us bothered to analyze what we were presented with. That's where your confusion is coming from.

Ahhh, quit it with the arrogant smarminess - just because one person's analysis doesn't come to the same conclusions as yours doesn't indicate there is an absence of analysis.  Let's pour some "ego-shrink" on you shall we?

[Dean_the_Young]

Fiery Phoenix wrote...

Saphra Deden is secretly Smudboy.

You heard it here first!

You aren't Zulu.


You are infringing upon his monopoly of crazy.

[Dean_the_Young]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Yes. If "never leave anything up to the imagination" becomes the new default rule for all media, I guess I'm going to have to go back to reading Shakespeare. Ugh.

If all plot points must be so transparent that the dumbest person who could ever watch your movie will instantly understand what is going on, it's very difficult to be subtle. That's how you get Twilight.

Hey, it took some people three books to realize that Edward was supposed to be attractive.

[Fiery Phoenix]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Fiery Phoenix wrote...

Saphra Deden is secretly Smudboy.

You heard it here first!

You aren't Zulu.


You are infringing upon his monopoly of crazy.

I used to think Zulu was Smud, actually.

[Almostfaceman]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Fiery Phoenix wrote...

Saphra Deden is secretly Smudboy.

You heard it here first!

You aren't Zulu.


You are infringing upon his monopoly of crazy.

roflmao 

[Fiery Phoenix]

Saphra Deden wrote...

If you analyze Mass Effect 2 you'll see how sloppy the plot is in places. This isn't debatable.

To be honest, it doesn't look like ME2 was supposed to have any plot to speak of in the first place. Casey Hudson said, and I quote, the characters ARE the story.

Modifié par Fiery Phoenix, 07 avril 2011 - 07:37 .

[Almostfaceman]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...

Ahhh, quit it with the arrogant smarminess - just because one person's analysis doesn't come to the same conclusions as yours doesn't indicate there is an absence of analysis.  Let's pour some "ego-shrink" on you shall we?

If you analyze Mass Effect 2 you'll see how sloppy the plot is in places. This isn't debatable.

Ah, just stop it.  I'm laughing so hard my sides hurt.  This coming from the person who thinks it's a good idea to merge with Reapers rather than fight them to the death.  I'm on to your "I'll say anything ridiculous to get attention" gig.

[Fixers0]

Found it in one of smudboy's videos, slightly edited to be more clear.

Smudboy's list of why mass effect 2 has a bad plot.
1. Plot holes.
2. Lack of plot expostion of the development.
3. Random plot progression
4. Mysterious/unclear enemy goals and plan.
5. Disconnected from the overarching plot of Mass Effect.
6. Retcons.
7. Poor Pacing of events.
8. Too Passive protaganist.
9. A poor 'antagonist.
10. 1 dimensional plot devices .
11. Flimsy and unknow plot or goal.
12 Useless Characters side stories.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

I read a lot of Science fiction, from all eras, and I've watched pretty much every major SF show in the cannon. I think Mass Effect has one of the best-written stories in all of Science Fiction... so far. They still have the chance to blow it with the ending, though I hope to god they don't.

Are there some problems, some logical inconsistencies? Yes, and honestly, the vast majority of those plot holes and inconsistencies are in Arrival.  I agree that the whole plan to crash the meteor needs more explanation, and that Shepard's aplomb about the Reaper Artifact is stupid. I've pointed that out, and so has everyone else. Nothing in his review is original or insightful at all. I can't find a single thing he says that didn't appear in several other reviews prior to this one... the difference being that he uses pretty graphics and speaks slowly, in order to better appeal to people who can't read. (Note, this is obviously a hyperbolic joke, meant to show my increasing ire. I am not actually claiming anyone who can read this is illiterate.)

He lost credibility for me during his Mass Effect 2 reviews, I had to stop after a couple (and this is from someone who has watched the Red Letter Media Phantom Menace Review more than once), because otherwise my brain was going to shut down. He completely misses the point of the central plot in ME2, which was designed to give us more insight into the Reaper's process, and how that process involves indoctrination, slave races, and the abduction of billions of living sentients to fuel the Reaper's goo vats. I'd bet dollars to donuts that the behavior of the collectors and the whys and wherefores of the abduction of live sentients is a huge factor in ME3, and that it's something we'll be glad we were told about then.

Sure, the central plot of ME2 was horribly muddied by unrelated recruitment and loyalty missions. But to say that it's inherently bad or irrelevant is to take an extremely narrow view of the scope of the world-building the Mass Effect team is doing here.

I also have an unrelated problem with Smudboys reviews in general: the question of budget and scope. He acts like all his suggestions are rational improvements, but, seventy percent of the time, they're budget-crushing crazy talk, the design and implementation equivalent of saying "and all characters should have forty seperate outfits, that we can change whenever we want!" Sure it would be fun, but that's not the level of resources we're talking about right now. I know it's often unreasonable to ask someone who has no history in game development and no skills as a developer to put themselves in those shoes and think about what is required to make the changes they're suggestiong, but he's just really egregious about it.

So yeah. Fan of Mass Effect, not a fan of Smudboy. And that's fine. I think it's OK if you like him, but don't act like he's some golden revelation down from the sky. He's like any other reviewer - he has opinions, and some people find them entertaining, while others don't. That said, he's more "on" in Arrival than any other review I've seen, but that's because Arrival is, in actuality, nearly as fundamentally broken as he imagines all of Mass Effect 2 to be. He paints them both with the same brush, which makes me question his critical eye. If you can look at Mass Effect 2 and say "the writing in this is as inconsistent as the writing in Arrival," I can't ever take you seriously.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 07 avril 2011 - 07:45 .

[Fiery Phoenix]

Fixers0 wrote...

Found it in one of smudboy's videos, slightly edited to be more clear.

Smudboy's list of why mass effect 2 has a bad plot.
1. Plot holes.
2. Lack of plot expostion of the development.
3. Random plot progression
4. Mysterious/unclear enemy goals and plan.
5. Disconnected from the overarching plot of Mass Effect.
6. Retcons.
7. Poor Pacing of events.
8. Too Passive protaganist.
9. A poor 'antagonist.
10. 1 dimensional plot devices .
11. Flimsy and unknow plot or goal.
12 Useless Characters side stories.

This entire list is precisely what Smud has been saying for the past year. I think it's largely spot on.

[squee913]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

But to say it was all a mess is seriously overstating things. It was fine and well organized.

No, it isn't. Smudboy has demonstrated this perfectly.

We have characters that have no relation to the plot. We are told to build a team but never told what we are building it for. Shepard begins calling this a suicide mission long before we are ever told of any suicide mission. Shepard and TIM talk about Harbringer even though in the story neither of them has ever communicated with him, much less been told of his name.

The plot is lazy and full of holes. It is not made well. It's entertaining, I'll grant it that, but is still sloppily written and organized.

1.)Exactly how many games do you know of that have side quests related to a team member that all have to do with the main plot? In almost every game I can think of, they are some personal matter that is separate and apart form the main story.

2.)No, we are not sure what we are building the team for.... that would be because anyone who has gone through the omega 4 relay has never come back (Oh, except for some scrap metal...) Thus, there is no way TO know what they are going to face.

3.) Shep calls it a suicide mission because anyone going through the Omega... you know what... just see point 2.

4.) Could you remind me what conversation between TIM and Shep talked about Harbinger? I remember a lot about the collectors, but I don't remember them even saying his name, or talking about him in particular.... ummm ever...

[dreman9999]

Saphra Deden wrote...

ME2 should have a well structured plot regardless of its place in the trilogy. ME3 can't 'fix' it in that regard.

ME2 plot is not bad.
In a more detailed look, a plot is what happen in the story. And for a plot to be bad it must have event in it that are unexplained and lead to no where. ME2 plot is too simple for that to happen, though theyare mistakes but not enough to make it bad. And in anycase this is part 2 of  a three part story, something won't be explained untill later.
In like how ignorant Smugboy sound when he quetion why Wilson batryed the project only to find out later in the LofSB that he was payed off by the SB as an agent.