546 réponses à ce sujet

[CroGamer002]

squee913 wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

But to say it was all a mess is seriously overstating things. It was fine and well organized.

No, it isn't. Smudboy has demonstrated this perfectly.

We have characters that have no relation to the plot. We are told to build a team but never told what we are building it for. Shepard begins calling this a suicide mission long before we are ever told of any suicide mission. Shepard and TIM talk about Harbringer even though in the story neither of them has ever communicated with him, much less been told of his name.

The plot is lazy and full of holes. It is not made well. It's entertaining, I'll grant it that, but is still sloppily written and organized.

1.)Exactly how many games do you know of that have side quests related to a team member that all have to do with the main plot? In almost every game I can think of, they are some personal matter that is separate and apart form the main story.

2.)No, we are not sure what we are building the team for.... that would be because anyone who has gone through the omega 4 relay has never come back (Oh, except for some scrap metal...) Thus, there is no way TO know what they are going to face.

3.) Shep calls it a suicide mission because anyone going through the Omega... you know what... just see point 2.

4.) Could you remind me what conversation between TIM and Shep talked about Harbinger? I remember a lot about the collectors, but I don't remember them even saying his name, or talking about him in particular.... ummm ever...

Before he/she says anything; Shepard does mention Harbinger to TIM after you either blow up or EMP Collector base.

Modifié par Mesina2, 07 avril 2011 - 07:46 .

[CroGamer002]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Mass Effect 2 didn't explain anything about the Reapers. It showed us some new things that contradicted the first game, but it didn't explain what we were seeing.

What stuff?

[Fiery Phoenix]

Mesina2 wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Mass Effect 2 didn't explain anything about the Reapers. It showed us some new things that contradicted the first game, but it didn't explain what we were seeing.

What stuff?

I think Saphra might be referring to the fact that we weren't told why the Collectors were building a Human-Reaper.

[dreman9999]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Mass Effect 2 didn't explain anything about the Reapers. It showed us some new things that contradicted the first game, but it didn't explain what we were seeing.

What was contradicted? And your forget the ME2 introducted the fact that  the reapers are made out of people.

[Almostfaceman]

dreman9999 wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Mass Effect 2 didn't explain anything about the Reapers. It showed us some new things that contradicted the first game, but it didn't explain what we were seeing.

What was contradicted? And your forget the ME2 introducted the fact that  the reapers are made out of people.

Well, partially out of an organic species, yes. 

[squee913]

Mesina2 wrote...

squee913 wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

But to say it was all a mess is seriously overstating things. It was fine and well organized.

No, it isn't. Smudboy has demonstrated this perfectly.

We have characters that have no relation to the plot. We are told to build a team but never told what we are building it for. Shepard begins calling this a suicide mission long before we are ever told of any suicide mission. Shepard and TIM talk about Harbringer even though in the story neither of them has ever communicated with him, much less been told of his name.

The plot is lazy and full of holes. It is not made well. It's entertaining, I'll grant it that, but is still sloppily written and organized.

1.)Exactly how many games do you know of that have side quests related to a team member that all have to do with the main plot? In almost every game I can think of, they are some personal matter that is separate and apart form the main story.

2.)No, we are not sure what we are building the team for.... that would be because anyone who has gone through the omega 4 relay has never come back (Oh, except for some scrap metal...) Thus, there is no way TO know what they are going to face.

3.) Shep calls it a suicide mission because anyone going through the Omega... you know what... just see point 2.

4.) Could you remind me what conversation between TIM and Shep talked about Harbinger? I remember a lot about the collectors, but I don't remember them even saying his name, or talking about him in particular.... ummm ever...

Before he/she says anything; Shepard does mention Harbinger to TIM after you either blow up or EMP Collector base.

Oh dear Zeus! Don't tell me we are calling the game broken now Because shep said, "Harbinger is coming!"
He said, "I am the Harbinger of your blah blah blah" What he hell else are you going to call him? Franky?

Modifié par squee913, 07 avril 2011 - 07:57 .

[Chewin]

Saphra Deden wrote...
This makes no sense because neither TIM or Shepard ever heard Harbringer's name or even actually talked to him. Up until that moment at the end, right before the credits roll, Shepard never once even acknowledged Harbringer's existence.

Check this

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Saphra Deden wrote...

A character talking about a character they have never met, spoken to, or even heard of is a PLOT HOLE!

See Chewin's link above. Dude says his name like every five minutes, every time you fight one of the dudes he's controlling.

Heeey, this guy keeps saying the word Harbringer. Like, a lot. Maybe that's what we'll call him.

[JKoopman]

piemanz wrote...

JKoopman wrote...

Okay, fair enough. But how can you know that the plot is "very good" if you've only read 2/3rds of it?

I've said it multiple times before and I'll say it once more again, if ME3 comes along and fixes by way of exposition and elaboration everything that's wrong with ME2's plot, that'll be great. I'd love to have my faith restored in what had been my favorite franchise. But the way I see it, there's probably less than a 1% chance of that happening. ME2 went off on some tangent of a story, and that story is now concluded. ME3 will have it's own issues to deal with, and I find it extremely unlikely that it'll take the time to go back and explain the entire plot of the previous game. After all, how often was ME2 really relevant to the plot of ME1?

If you take the time to look at ME2's plot in a positive way rather than focusing on what you perceive to be the bad stuff, then you can already see what elements could have big implications in ME3. Of course i don't know this for sure but like i said you can't know for sure because the story is not finished.

If I have to intentionally put on plot blinders simply to enjoy a story, then it's difficult for me to either invest in it or take it seriously. But just for the sake of clarity, please elabortate on what parts of the Collector plot will potentially have big implications for ME3? All I can think of is whether you choose to keep or destroy the Collector base, and juding by how the "Big Ending Choice" of ME1 played out with the fate of the Council effectively having ZERO impact, I'm not expecting much; perhaps you'll overhear a few negative remarks from random NPCs if you choose to keep the base for Cerberus?

piemanz wrote...

I'm not really sure how you didn't see any tie in from ME1, Reapers??.I mean, what more tie in do you need?.You could also argue the whole ME universe is a tie in from ME1.I'm not really sure how you see the ME2 plot as a tangent either, i mean the collectors (formaly protheans) were taking human colonists to build a Reaper (which we can only assume is a bad sign for humanity as a whole).How the hell is this a tangent?

Did we manage to convine the galaxy of the impending Reaper threat? Nope. Everyone who matters still disbelieves us, even though we pass up multiple opportunities to collect evidence throughout the game. Did we find some method or means of fighting the Reapers; like a secret weakness or a super weapon or even a hint to the possible location of a super weapon? Nope. Did we find some way to stop the Reapers or delay them from entering the galaxy? In Arrival, yes. But did anyting in regards to the Collectors have any impact on the Reapers' plans? No one can really say for sure because we're given ABSOLUTELY NOTHING upon which to understand what the hell the point or purpose of the Human Reaper was and it didn't seem to have any relevance to the Reaper's ultimate invasion plans. It just seemed to be some sort of Reaper side project.

Stopping the Collectors seemed to have approximately ZERO relevance to stopping the Reapers, and that was even before Arrival came along and effectively undermined and negated the whole thing anyway. We're literally right back where we were at the end of ME1. Like smudboy even says at the end of his Arrival analysis, a new player could basically not even bother with ME2, simply play through Arrival and Lair of the Shadow Broker and be totally set for ME3.

So yes, it went off on a tangent.

Modifié par JKoopman, 07 avril 2011 - 08:09 .

[CulturalGeekGirl]

We learn a lot of really important stuff in ME2.  A LOT of stuff. Why do the reapers let organic life evolve if they're just going to reap them? What happens during a Reaper Attack? How do the Reapers monitor the Galaxy during their downtime?

These questions were neatly answered:

1. They let organic life evolve because they need us, either as slave races or fuel for their goo vats.

2. When they attack, it's going to take a while, because they're probably going to want to take a substantial portion of at least one of our races alive, in order to make collector-style minions. They're also going to want to take even MORE beings alive, in order to make one (or more) new reapers, a process that requires living sentients.

3. The Reapers decide to just outright orbitally bombard some planets, but they also spend some time on indoctrination and harvesting. Also, during the "downtime" they use a slave race to take samples, and evaluate which of the currently active races are best suited for slave-dom, which are best suited for reaper-dom, and which are best suited for orbital bombardment.

Ok, and someone else in this thread brought this up: Why are the collectors building a human reaper?

Because digitizing/goo-ifying sentient life in this way is how Reapers are always made! It's why the cycle happens. The collectors are doing it because the Reapers will it, the Collectors are just Harbie handpuppets at this point.

And I'm not "making up" justifications here. If you do not think Mass Effect 2 explicitly told us "The Reapers make new Reapers by harvesting a sentient race," then... well... I do not know how to have a conversation with you, because I do not understand how you process stories.

Also, Sovereign says that the Reapers are eternal, inorganic machines. Yet they may be made using organic life. Is this a contradiction? NO! I am not a plant. I think you will all agree that I am not a plant. Yet, if everyone in my family were vegetarians, plants would have been one of the primary materials used in my construction. So you can use plants to fuel your construction, and still consider yourself to NOT BE A PLANT. You can use organics in your construction, and not be organic!

[Almostfaceman]

Saphra Deden wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

What was contradicted? And your forget the ME2 introducted the fact that  the reapers are made out of people.

Sovereign in ME1 indicates quite the opposite.

Rudimentary creatures of blood and flesh.  You touch my mind, fumbling in ignorance incapable of understanding.  There is a realm of existence so far beyond your own you cannot even imagine it.  I am beyond your comprehension.  What you choose to call us is irrelevent.  we simply ARE.  Organic life is nothing but a genetic mutation, an accident.  We are eternal.  The pinnacle of evolution and existence.  Before us, you are nothing.  Your existence is irrelevent.  We are the end of everything.  We impose order on the chaos of organic evolution.  You exist because we allow it.  And you will end because we demand it.  My kind transcends your very understanding.  We are each a nation, independent, free of all weakness.  You cannot even grasp the nature of our existence.  We have no beginning.  We have no end.  We are infinite.

All this really indicates is that Reapers are more than their components (which, it seems, includes organics).  This is what we humans (a large portion of us) hold true about ourselves when we speak of our supernatural "spirit".  They exist on a higher plane of existence, maybe that accounts for dimensions outside those we know of.  

[cachx]

Why are we still talking about this guy?

[ADLegend21]

let me guess he says:
plotholes galore
short
nitpicks about Kenson and the artifact
nitpicks about having to kill 300,000 batarians?

[CroGamer002]

Saphra Deden wrote...

This is more than just sidequests, Squee. The characters themselvles have nothing to do with the main plot. The only ones who do are Mordin and Thane, and that is really pushing it with Thane. Mordin we need because of his expertise so that the Collector's technology can be countered, enabling us to fight them. This is well explained. A shame then that the samples Mordin experiments on pop out of thin air. Shepard says we collected samples, but where? When? 

Thane I say is connected to the main plot primarily because his motivation is well explained. He wants redemption and is a dead-man-walking anyway.

Yeah, like ME1 squadmates!

Ashley and Kaidan could have been just random soldiers.
Garrus might have investigated Saren but after that he is not needed for plot and his info is optional to get.
Wrex is just a merc that just happen to get hired by Shadow Broker to get Fist. After you get Fist and info for Tali Wrex can just leave and it would not change plot at all.
Tali just could have give you evidence and leave to continue her pilgrimage.
Liara is just a walking plot device. After she helped you with vision you could have just left her on Citadel. And her connection to Benezia is not very plot related




Also for ME2 squadmate not being related to plot?

Hmh:

Miranda lead Lazarus Project that resurrected Shepard.
Jacob protects Miranda.
Garrus and Tali have history with Shepard( ME1) and do not hesitate to help him/her.
Legion was sent to investigate Shepard's death and Reapers are enemy of his section of Geth.

Right, so we are gathering people together for an unspecificed purpose. If the purpose is so vague then by what criteria are we chosing these people? In Ocean's Eleven] the thieves are being gathered together for particular purposes. They don't just all join and then at the last minute figure out what they're supposed to do. There was planning.

Why would Shepard call this a suicide mission when he doesn't even know what he's going to try and do other than go through the relay? If he can't get through the relay there is is no mission. Again, this is the problem. Shepard is gathering all these people togethre with no plan in mind.

There was a plan.
It was to stop Collectors by infiltrating their base/homeworld.

And reason why they didn't had battle plan until they hit Omega 4 Relay?
Well nobody knew what's behind it and they needed element of surprise to hit Collectors.

The mission summary for Horizon has TIM talking about the Collector General and the summary for the Cruiser has him talking about Harbringer, mentioning him by name. Finally at the end of the game even Shepard warns that "Harbringer is coming". This makes no sense because neither TIM or Shepard ever heard Harbringer's name or even actually talked to him. Up until that moment at the end, right before the credits roll, Shepard never once even acknowledged Harbringer's existence.

Harbinger was not mentioned until the end of ME2 by Shepard.
And how does Shepard knows about Harbinger?

Remember that datapad you get from Joker and how Harbinger talks to Shepard while he/she is running to Normandy in Suicide Mission?

And about TIM knowing about Collector General?
"ASSUMING DIRECT CONTROL!"

[dreman9999]

Fixers0 wrote...

Found it in one of smudboy's videos, slightly edited to be more clear.

Smudboy's list of why mass effect 2 has a bad plot.
1. Plot holes.
2. Lack of plot expostion of the development.
3. Random plot progression
4. Mysterious/unclear enemy goals and plan.
5. Disconnected from the overarching plot of Mass Effect.
6. Retcons.
7. Poor Pacing of events.
8. Too Passive protaganist.
9. A poor 'antagonist.
10. 1 dimensional plot devices .
11. Flimsy and unknow plot or goal.
12 Useless Characters side stories.

1. Ya, they are there.

2.The plot is about getting ready for a suicide misson, which you do. How is it a lack of a development.

3. This is in all stories. It's not a fault, though I do agree with this with the start of the suicide mission, that is too forced and rushed.

4.3 part story, the mystery is there for a reason.

5.Not at all. In fact it cements it. ME1 make the Reapers the bad guy and your learn they are coming to kill everyone. ME2 shows how it would look like. The collectors are not the bad guys, Mordin said it him self"they're just tools for the reapers."The collectorshow to use what will happen to us if we lose. By the time we finish the collector ship mission the Reapers are the bad guy ageint.

6.Not at all. Just the mechanic for one change is not fully thought out. But just having one doesn't mean it's bad.

7.Only on the start of the susicide mission when you lose your crew.

8.This is just a big giant question "Why do we have to be with Curberus?" And the awnser is.....the have the ship, the ship only function under their control, the Aliance does not have the funding to give or make a new ship for Sheperd that is reaquiered for the mission and you expect the Council, that makes you buy your own guns, to give you a ship,?They didn't even do that last time. Long awnser short, because they are the only ones who can help you.
9.HA, He never understood that this is a roleplaying game and that he has to play a role. You have to make the changes to the character. If you had a stale charcter that's your problem.
10.All epics have this. ME1 was we have to find Saren, DA:O was that you have to stop the dark spawn. This does not make the plot poor.
11.Let see now, we know the reapers are coming and we soon find out that humans are dissapering so we try to find out......The story also, starts with TIM planning for away to keep Sheperd alive for insurance. After the worst thing happens, your revived and then told that the humans are dissapearing. Though he may not know who is doing it, he nowsit's not the reapers themselve and they maybe using an unknow agent, which it clear due to the reapers are not only the only threat, but they are known to use agents, example Seran. So off couse he makes a plan to take out the agent who ever they maybe.  In short it was never about the collecters, just what ever agent  that was helping the reapers, a team was made to deal with them. And since the agent is using stealth to do this, an army would not work.
12. Character growth is story, look at Ender's Game and tell me otherwise. And it part of the plot, due to the getting ready for the suicide missin.

Modifié par dreman9999, 07 avril 2011 - 08:39 .

[squee913]

Saphra Deden wrote...

This is more than just sidequests, Squee. The characters themselvles have nothing to do with the main plot. The only ones who do are Mordin and Thane, and that is really pushing it with Thane. Mordin we need because of his expertise so that the Collector's technology can be countered, enabling us to fight them. This is well explained. A shame then that the samples Mordin experiments on pop out of thin air. Shepard says we collected samples, but where? When? 

Thane I say is connected to the main plot primarily because his motivation is well explained. He wants redemption and is a dead-man-walking anyway.

Much like in any of the Baldur's Gate Stories, most of the characters were optional. Hell, you could say Wrex and Garrus were not nessary, since you never even had to talk to talk to them to advance the story. Sten, Liliana, the mutt, never added anything to dragon age. Imoen was the ONLY plot essential party memeber in BG2. You must hate a lot of games if you think all the teammates need to be conected to teh main plot.

Right, so we are gathering people together for an unspecificed purpose. If the purpose is so vague then by what criteria are we chosing these people? In Ocean's Eleven the thieves are being gathered together for particular purposes. They don't just all join and then at the last minute figure out what they're supposed to do. There was planning.

Why would Shepard call this a suicide mission when he doesn't even know what he's going to try and do other than go through the relay? If he can't get through the relay there is is no mission. Again, this is the problem. Shepard is gathering all these people togethre with no plan in mind.

When you have no idea what you might face, you try to build a team that can handle a lot of different situations. For example, tech experts, powerful Biotics, Experienced Mercenaries, Skilled Snipers, Thieves, ... Jacob....

What part of we are trying to do a mission, cut off from all help, and no one has ever completed before, would not give reason for Shep to cal it suicide?

The mission summary for Horizon has TIM talking about the Collector General and the summary for the Cruiser has him talking about Harbringer, mentioning him by name. Finally at the end of the game even Shepard warns that "Harbringer is coming". This makes no sense because neither TIM or Shepard ever heard Harbringer's name or even actually talked to him. Up until that moment at the end, right before the credits roll, Shepard never once even acknowledged Harbringer's existence.

TIM may have mentioned him in his report AFTER you met him. It was pretty clear, he was in charge, so I don't understand where the confusion is. He runs around saying I am Harbinger this I am Harbinger that. I suppose you could cal him Franky...  Either way, THIS makes Mass Effect 2 a bad story?

[piemanz]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

We learn a lot of really important stuff in ME2.  A LOT of stuff. Why do the reapers let organic life evolve if they're just going to reap them? What happens during a Reaper Attack? How do the Reapers monitor the Galaxy during their downtime?

These questions were neatly answered:

1. They let organic life evolve because they need us, either as slave races or fuel for their goo vats.

2. When they attack, it's going to take a while, because they're probably going to want to take a substantial portion of at least one of our races alive, in order to make collector-style minions. They're also going to want to take even MORE beings alive, in order to make one (or more) new reapers, a process that requires living sentients.

3. The Reapers decide to just outright orbitally bombard some planets, but they also spend some time on indoctrination and harvesting. Also, during the "downtime" they use a slave race to take samples, and evaluate which of the currently active races are best suited for slave-dom, which are best suited for reaper-dom, and which are best suited for orbital bombardment.

Ok, and someone else in this thread brought this up: Why are the collectors building a human reaper?

Because digitizing/goo-ifying sentient life in this way is how Reapers are always made! It's why the cycle happens. The collectors are doing it because the Reapers will it, the Collectors are just Harbie handpuppets at this point.

And I'm not "making up" justifications here. If you do not think Mass Effect 2 explicitly told us "The Reapers make new Reapers by harvesting a sentient race," then... well... I do not know how to have a conversation with you, because I do not understand how you process stories.

Also, Sovereign says that the Reapers are eternal, inorganic machines. Yet they may be made using organic life. Is this a contradiction? NO! I am not a plant. I think you will all agree that I am not a plant. Yet, if everyone in my family were vegetarians, plants would have been one of the primary materials used in my construction. So you can use plants to fuel your construction, and still consider yourself to NOT BE A PLANT. You can use organics in your construction, and not be organic!

Pretty much this...Among other things aswell.

Also @ Koopman  Me and you just took away compltely different experiences away from ME2, we're never going to agree

Modifié par piemanz, 07 avril 2011 - 08:39 .

[Fiery Phoenix]

I believe the whole complaint about squadmates being irrelevant is because in ME1, the majority of the squad were not only relevant, but were also directly integral to the plot, so people went to ME2 expecting the same. In ME1, without Talli, we wouldn't have exposed Saren; without Liara, we wouldn't have pinpointed Ilos. Wrex, Ashley and Kaidan were also relevant in their own ways throughout the story. Garrus was the least relevant squadmate in ME1, but even then, he still felt connected in some way.

[2kgnsiika]

I couldn't go far past the first sentence. Delibarately referring to Arrival as Bring Down the Sky is supposed to be ironic, right? It's supposed to show how unimaginative BW is for having batarians and a crashing asteroid in both the final DLC for ME1 and ME2, right?
Did he for a moment consider that this was deliberate and intentionally ironic on BW's part? Having Shepard prevent a batarian killing millions of humans in BDtS and making him kill 300,000 batarians in Arrival is a deliciously dramatic conclusion to ME2, and goes to show that easy to label people terrorists, but sometimes you have to do terrible things to save the galaxy.

[JKoopman]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

We learn a lot of really important stuff in ME2.  A LOT of stuff. Why do the reapers let organic life evolve if they're just going to reap them? What happens during a Reaper Attack? How do the Reapers monitor the Galaxy during their downtime?

These questions were neatly answered:

1. They let organic life evolve because they need us, either as slave races or fuel for their goo vats.

We already knew from ME1 that Reapers use organics as slave races. That's nothing new. And the info about "goo vats" actually contradicts what we're given in ME1.

Sovereign: "Your civilization is based on the technology of the mass relays; our technology. By using it, your society develops along the paths we desire."
Tali: "They're harvesting us! Letting our technology advance to the level they need, then wiping us out!"

This actually makes more sense. After all, why would the Reapers direct organic races along a specific technological path and harvest us only once our civilizations had advanced to a desired point if their intention is to harvest us for our biology? Our biology isn't affected by our ability to achieve spaceflight or use mass relays. Why not begin the cycle of harvesting before the first organic race has made it into the Industrial Age, when no one would stand a chance against them?

Conflicting information--especially conflicting information that makes no sense--doesn't give us a better understanding of the Reapers.

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

2. When they attack, it's going to take a while, because they're probably going to want to take a substantial portion of at least one of our races alive, in order to make collector-style minions. They're also going to want to take even MORE beings alive, in order to make one (or more) new reapers, a process that requires living sentients.

That you used the word "probably" should be enough of an indication to you that this is all just your own supposition. This isn't stated for a fact anywhere in the story of ME2. For all the plot of ME2 makes clear, the Human Reaper was just some abberant experiment, and EDI's clearly stated guesses don't constitute confirmation of anything.

And as we already knew that the Reapers would at least use a substantial number of organics as sleeper agents and slaves, I'd also question if this is really something relevant and important to the plot of ME3.

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

3. The Reapers decide to just outright orbitally bombard some planets, but they also spend some time on indoctrination and harvesting. Also, during the "downtime" they use a slave race to take samples, and evaluate which of the currently active races are best suited for slave-dom, which are best suited for reaper-dom, and which are best suited for orbital bombardment.

Again, nothing we didn't already know from ME1.

Modifié par JKoopman, 07 avril 2011 - 08:42 .

[Whatever42]

Saphra Deden wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

What was contradicted? And your forget the ME2 introducted the fact that  the reapers are made out of people.

Sovereign in ME1 indicates quite the opposite.

He never does. Stop making things up.

[Whatever42]

JKoopman wrote...

Sovereign: "Your civilization is based on the technology of the mass relays; our technology. By using it, your society develops along the paths we desire."
Tali: "They're harvesting us! Letting our technology advance to the level they need, then wiping us out!"

You really think they wanted us to advance down the paths they desire just so we would manufacture lots of stupid consumer goods and substandard weapons that they could recycle? That makes no sense.

You think they need organic slaves to dig up ezzo for them? The geth will do it for a pat on the head. But for some reason they want organics specifically.

Just because you completely misinterpreted facts from the first game, does not mean it was a retcon.