546 réponses à ce sujet

[Xeranx]

 I'm just going to chime in here to ask if anyone ever saw "The Real World San Francisco"?  At least I think that's the one with the guy Puck who was such a force to be reckoned with that he was still discussed (and a bit influential) months after he was forced out of the house.  My agreements with a few many of his points aside, I just have to give Smudboy credit for just being entertaining.  If I were Smudboy I'd be wearing a big grin every single day.

[JKoopman]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

JKoopman wrote...

Sovereign: "Your civilization is based on the technology of the mass relays; our technology. By using it, your society develops along the paths we desire."
Tali: "They're harvesting us! Letting our technology advance to the level they need, then wiping us out!"

You really think they wanted us to advance down the paths they desire just so we would manufacture lots of stupid consumer goods and substandard weapons that they could recycle? That makes no sense.

You think they need organic slaves to dig up ezzo for them? The geth will do it for a pat on the head. But for some reason they want organics specifically.

Just because you completely misinterpreted facts from the first game, does not mean it was a retcon.

It's easy to make baseless accusations. How about backing them up?

Explain to me why the Reapers would need to steer organic races along a particular technological path and harvest them only once they had achieved spaceflight and mastered mass effect technology if their only desire is to melt them down into grey goo and harvest them for their organic components and I'll gladly admit that I'm simply "misinterpereting facts".

I can easily think of an explanation for ME1's theory. Being that the Reapers are machines, they lack the capacity for creative thought. Thus, they rely on organic races to explore alternative potential applications for and evolutions of mass effect technology.

Modifié par JKoopman, 07 avril 2011 - 08:57 .

[Il Divo]

Xeranx wrote...

 I'm just going to chime in here to ask if anyone ever saw "The Real World San Francisco"?  At least I think that's the one with the guy Puck who was such a force to be reckoned with that he was still discussed (and a bit influential) months after he was forced out of the house.  My agreements with a few many of his points aside, I just have to give Smudboy credit for just being entertaining.  If I were Smudboy I'd be wearing a big grin every single day.

Noted. Love him or hate him, Smudboy is always going to be that guy everyone remembers here on the forums.

[Fixers0]

dreman9999 wrote...

What was contradicted? And your forget the ME2 introducted the fact that  the reapers are made out of people.

Really i only thought T-8000 was created out of orange glowing human goo.

[Fiery Phoenix]

Part of me really wants Smud back on the forum. Even if his presence often generated flame wars, he was actually quite interesting to have around.

[CroGamer002]

Il Divo wrote...

Xeranx wrote...

 I'm just going to chime in here to ask if anyone ever saw "The Real World San Francisco"?  At least I think that's the one with the guy Puck who was such a force to be reckoned with that he was still discussed (and a bit influential) months after he was forced out of the house.  My agreements with a few many of his points aside, I just have to give Smudboy credit for just being entertaining.  If I were Smudboy I'd be wearing a big grin every single day.

Noted. Love him or hate him, Smudboy is always going to be that guy everyone remembers here on the forums.

And lot of people ignore, for some reason, why he was perma-banned from BSN and keep wondering why isn't he very liked here.

[squee913]

JKoopman wrote...

We already knew from ME1 that Reapers use organics as slave races. That's nothing new. And the info about "goo vats" actually contradicts what we're given in ME1.

Sovereign: "Your civilization is based on the technology of the mass relays; our technology. By using it, your society develops along the paths we desire."
Tali: "They're harvesting us! Letting our technology advance to the level they need, then wiping us out!"

This actually makes more sense. After all, why would the Reapers direct organic races along a specific technological path and harvest us only once our civilizations had advanced to a desired point if their intention is to harvest us for our biology? Our biology isn't affected by our ability to achieve spaceflight or use mass relays. Why not begin the cycle of harvesting before the first organic race has made it into the Industrial Age, when no one would stand a chance against them?

JKoopman wrote...
That you used the word "probably" should be enough of an indication to you that this is all just your own supposition. This isn't stated for a fact anywhere in the story of ME2. For all the plot of ME2 makes clear, the Human Reaper was just some abberant experiment, and EDI's clearly stated guesses don't constitute confirmation of anything.

Please tell me I'm not the only one that see the hypocracy here.

I'm Guessing this is what ME1 ment

How dare you Guess that is what they meant in ME2!!!

[Il Divo]

JKoopman wrote...

It's easy to make baseless accusations. How about backing them up?

Explain to me why the Reapers would need to steer organic races along a particular technological path and harvest us only we had achieved spaceflight and mastered mass effect technology if their only desire is to melt us down into grey goo and harvest us for our organic components and I'll gladly admit that I'm simply "misinterpereting facts".

Considering we didn't even have a motivation in Mass Effect 1, I don't really see the problem. And no, Tali's comment is not helpful. Tali is not a Reaper, and is not qualified to say why they would want us, for any reason.

Mass Effect 1 tells us that the Reapers like to harvest all life, under the pretense that we cannot understand why. Mass Effect 2 gives a bit more insight, showing us a reason for the cycle's existence. Notice for example that the cycle is the means by which they determine which races are considered 'worthy' of Reaper-ification, protheans and humans amonsgt them.

[piemanz]

JKoopman wrote...

We already knew from ME1 that Reapers use organics as slave races. That's nothing new. And the info about "goo vats" actually contradicts what we're given in ME1.

Sovereign: "Your civilization is based on the technology of the mass relays; our technology. By using it, your society develops along the paths we desire."
Tali: "They're harvesting us! Letting our technology advance to the level they need, then wiping us out!"

This actually makes more sense. After all, why would the Reapers direct organic races along a specific technological path and harvest us only once our civilizations had advanced to a desired point if their intention is to harvest us for our biology? Our biology isn't affected by our ability to achieve spaceflight or use mass relays. Why not begin the cycle of harvesting before the first organic race has made it into the Industrial Age, when no one would stand a chance against them?

Conflicting information--especially conflicting information that makes no sense--doesn't give us a better understanding of the Reapers.

Esscence of a species would imply more than just biology, would it not?, this would also make sense in regards to sovereigns statements in ME1.

You seem to once again be showing your lack of imagination.

JKoopman wrote...

That you used the word "probably" should be enough of an indication to you that this is all just your own supposition. This isn't stated for a fact anywhere in the story of ME2. For all the plot of ME2 makes clear, the Human Reaper was just some abberant experiment, and EDI's clearly stated guesses don't constitute confirmation of anything.

And as we already knew that the Reapers would at least use a substantial number of organics as sleeper agents and slaves, I'd also question if this is really something relevant and important to the plot of ME3.

If it's not patently obvious that them building a human reaper will have implications for ME3 i dont know what to say...honestly.

[Almostfaceman]

JKoopman wrote...


We already knew from ME1 that Reapers use organics as slave races. That's nothing new. And the info about "goo vats" actually contradicts what we're given in ME1.

Sovereign: "Your civilization is based on the technology of the mass relays; our technology. By using it, your society develops along the paths we desire."
Tali: "They're harvesting us! Letting our technology advance to the level they need, then wiping us out!"

This actually makes more sense. After all, why would the Reapers direct organic races along a specific technological path and harvest us only once our civilizations had advanced to a desired point if their intention is to harvest us for our biology? Our biology isn't affected by our ability to achieve spaceflight or use mass relays. Why not begin the cycle of harvesting before the first organic race has made it into the Industrial Age, when no one would stand a chance against them?

Conflicting information--especially conflicting information that makes no sense--doesn't give us a better understanding of the Reapers.

Looking at our cells under a microscope isn't going to indicate to a Reaper whether or not we're going to make it to outer space.  They may be interested in our biology after we've passed some tests - like the ability to make it to outer space and kill one of them.  I'm not seeing the lack in logic here.

There is no conflicting information.  The very first dialogue with a Reaper is not going to tell us the whole story about them or what they're doing or why they're doing it.  It is possible and non-conflicting that they would want us for both our technological variants (to their technology) AND our biology.

[JKoopman]

squee913 wrote...

JKoopman wrote...

We already knew from ME1 that Reapers use organics as slave races. That's nothing new. And the info about "goo vats" actually contradicts what we're given in ME1.

Sovereign: "Your civilization is based on the technology of the mass relays; our technology. By using it, your society develops along the paths we desire."
Tali: "They're harvesting us! Letting our technology advance to the level they need, then wiping us out!"

This actually makes more sense. After all, why would the Reapers direct organic races along a specific technological path and harvest us only once our civilizations had advanced to a desired point if their intention is to harvest us for our biology? Our biology isn't affected by our ability to achieve spaceflight or use mass relays. Why not begin the cycle of harvesting before the first organic race has made it into the Industrial Age, when no one would stand a chance against them?

JKoopman wrote...
That you used the word "probably" should be enough of an indication to you that this is all just your own supposition. This isn't stated for a fact anywhere in the story of ME2. For all the plot of ME2 makes clear, the Human Reaper was just some abberant experiment, and EDI's clearly stated guesses don't constitute confirmation of anything.

Please tell me I'm not the only one that see the hypocracy here.

I'm Guessing this is what ME1 ment

How dare you Guess that is what they meant in ME2!!!

Where did I say I was guessing about anything? ME1 flat out tells us what the Reapers are harvesting us for: They are harvesting us for our technology, then wiping us out. It doesn't explain WHY they're harvesting us for our technology, but then neither does ME2 explain WHY the Reapers are apparently harvesting us for our biology. It simply tells us WHAT they're harvesting us for. In ME1, it's our technology. In ME2, it's our biology.

[JKoopman]

Il Divo wrote...

JKoopman wrote...

It's easy to make baseless accusations. How about backing them up?

Explain to me why the Reapers would need to steer organic races along a particular technological path and harvest us only we had achieved spaceflight and mastered mass effect technology if their only desire is to melt us down into grey goo and harvest us for our organic components and I'll gladly admit that I'm simply "misinterpereting facts".

Considering we didn't even have a motivation in Mass Effect 1, I don't really see the problem. And no, Tali's comment is not helpful. Tali is not a Reaper, and is not qualified to say why they would want us, for any reason.

But EDI is qualified to say why they would want us?

To quote squee, am I the only one who sees the hypocricy here?

Modifié par JKoopman, 07 avril 2011 - 09:03 .

[Almostfaceman]

squee913 wrote...

Please tell me I'm not the only one that see the hypocracy here.

I'm Guessing this is what ME1 ment

How dare you Guess that is what they meant in ME2!!!

Yes it does seem to be that JKoopman is getting in the habit of making his own suppositions about ME but not allowing anyone else to do so.

[squee913]

JKoopman wrote...

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

JKoopman wrote...

Sovereign: "Your civilization is based on the technology of the mass relays; our technology. By using it, your society develops along the paths we desire."
Tali: "They're harvesting us! Letting our technology advance to the level they need, then wiping us out!"

You really think they wanted us to advance down the paths they desire just so we would manufacture lots of stupid consumer goods and substandard weapons that they could recycle? That makes no sense.

You think they need organic slaves to dig up ezzo for them? The geth will do it for a pat on the head. But for some reason they want organics specifically.

Just because you completely misinterpreted facts from the first game, does not mean it was a retcon.

It's easy to make baseless accusations. How about backing them up?

Explain to me why the Reapers would need to steer organic races along a particular technological path and harvest them only once they had achieved spaceflight and mastered mass effect technology if their only desire is to melt them down into grey goo and harvest them for their organic components and I'll gladly admit that I'm simply "misinterpereting facts".

I can easily think of an explanation for ME1's theory. Being that the Reapers are machines, they lack the capacity for creative thought. Thus, they rely on organic races to explore alternative potential applications for and evolutions of mass effect technology.

The simplest answer is so that hey know what they are up against. If you are trying to wipe out galactic civ every 50,000 years, it is a lot easier when you know what kind of tech they use and how to counter it. What if the galaxy did not use Mass Effect and instead developed completely different tech that the reapers did not know how to counter? Why do farmers make sure Corn grows in a controlled line? To make it easier to chop down. (ok, maybe not really, but you get the point.)

[Almostfaceman]

JKoopman wrote...

Il Divo wrote...

JKoopman wrote...

It's easy to make baseless accusations. How about backing them up?

Explain to me why the Reapers would need to steer organic races along a particular technological path and harvest us only we had achieved spaceflight and mastered mass effect technology if their only desire is to melt us down into grey goo and harvest us for our organic components and I'll gladly admit that I'm simply "misinterpereting facts".

Considering we didn't even have a motivation in Mass Effect 1, I don't really see the problem. And no, Tali's comment is not helpful. Tali is not a Reaper, and is not qualified to say why they would want us, for any reason.

But EDI is qualified to to say why they would want us?

To quote squee, am I the only one that see the hypocricy here?

All I see is both Tali and EDI making suppositions about the Reapers... which leaves room for mystery and interpretation and an interesting story.

[CroGamer002]

JKoopman wrote...

Where did I say I was guessing about anything? ME1 flat out tells us what the Reapers are harvesting us for: They are harvesting us for our technology, then wiping us out. It doesn't explain WHY they're harvesting us for our technology, but then neither does ME2 explain WHY the Reapers are apparently harvesting us for our biology. It simply tells us WHAT they're harvesting us for. In ME1, it's our technology. In ME2, it's our biology.

Who says that?

Sovereign or squadmate?

[piemanz]

squee913 wrote...

JKoopman wrote...

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

JKoopman wrote...

Sovereign: "Your civilization is based on the technology of the mass relays; our technology. By using it, your society develops along the paths we desire."
Tali: "They're harvesting us! Letting our technology advance to the level they need, then wiping us out!"

You really think they wanted us to advance down the paths they desire just so we would manufacture lots of stupid consumer goods and substandard weapons that they could recycle? That makes no sense.

You think they need organic slaves to dig up ezzo for them? The geth will do it for a pat on the head. But for some reason they want organics specifically.

Just because you completely misinterpreted facts from the first game, does not mean it was a retcon.

It's easy to make baseless accusations. How about backing them up?

Explain to me why the Reapers would need to steer organic races along a particular technological path and harvest them only once they had achieved spaceflight and mastered mass effect technology if their only desire is to melt them down into grey goo and harvest them for their organic components and I'll gladly admit that I'm simply "misinterpereting facts".

I can easily think of an explanation for ME1's theory. Being that the Reapers are machines, they lack the capacity for creative thought. Thus, they rely on organic races to explore alternative potential applications for and evolutions of mass effect technology.

The simplest answer is so that hey know what they are up against. If you are trying to wipe out galactic civ every 50,000 years, it is a lot easier when you know what kind of tech they use and how to counter it. What if the galaxy did not use Mass Effect and instead developed completely different tech that the reapers did not know how to counter? Why do farmers make sure Corn grows in a controlled line? To make it easier to chop down. (ok, maybe not really, but you get the point.)

Exactly, galactic civilisations heart is at the Citadel simply because the Reapers made it easy for it to be that way.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

****Warning! I use Harry Potter spoilers as analogies in this reply. ZOMG. Welcome to five years ago, internet!****

JKoopman wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...
We learn a lot of really important stuff in ME2.  A LOT of stuff. Why do the reapers let organic life evolve if they're just going to reap them? What happens during a Reaper Attack? How do the Reapers monitor the Galaxy during their downtime?
These questions were neatly answered:
1. They let organic life evolve because they need us, either as slave races or fuel for their goo vats.

We already knew from ME1 that Reapers use organics as slave races. That's nothing new. And the info about "goo vats" actually contradicts what we're given in ME1.

Where in ME1 did we hear that the Reapers use anything other than individual indoctrination? Where did they tell us that they subvert entire races, and turn them into servants?  Where did we learn that they use us to make Reapers?There are the Keepers, yes, but their function and design is radically different than the collectors, and has very different implications. The fact that the Reapers once made a slave race, millions of years ago, is one thing. The fact that they made one the last time they were here, and maintained that Race for 50,000 years until it reached the end of its usability for them... that has different implications altogether.

Sovereign: "Your civilization is based on the technology of the mass relays; our technology. By using it, your society develops along the paths we desire."
Tali: "They're harvesting us! Letting our technology advance to the level they need, then wiping us out!"

This actually makes more sense. After all, why would the Reapers direct organic races along a specific technological path and harvest us only once our civilizations had advanced to a desired point if their intention is to harvest us for our biology? Our biology isn't affected by our ability to achieve spaceflight or use mass relays. Why not begin the cycle of harvesting before the first organic race has made it into the Industrial Age, when no one would stand a chance against them?

Conflicting information--especially conflicting information that makes no sense--doesn't give us a better understanding of the Reapers.

No offense to Tali, but that was just her theory. If a character in a book develops a theory, and then later that theory is contradicted by evidence, that is not a plot hole. In Harry Potter there is a ton of evidence that Snape was clearly evil. It's logical for the characters to conclude that he's probably evil. Then, a book or two later, more evidence comes to light, proving that he is good! Directly contradicting what characters said earlier! That isn't a plothole! Is it a plothole on House when they develop one diagnosis based on the evidence, and then later in the episode they realize they've been looking at the evidence wrong, and what they thought was Lupus is actually Cholera? No! It's a new assessment of what is going on, given new information.

Evidence in ME1 caused the characters to come to one conclusion. Additional evidence from ME2, added to the evidence in ME1, causes characters to alter their conclusion. This happens in every mystery story. You come up with a theory, new evidence comes to light, you change your theory. You still haven't provided any place where evidence in ME2 directly contradicts evidence in ME1 - only that new evidence makes theories that characters in ME1 developed seem incorrect. You were willing to take those theories as read in ME1 - you were emotionally invested in the idea that Snape was evil, and now that new evidence comes to light, you're upset. I can understand that.  I hate it when I have a good theory all worked up and then the plot goes and contradicts it... I'm looking at you, Lost!

JKoopman wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

2. When they attack, it's going to take a while, because they're probably going to want to take a substantial portion of at least one of our races alive, in order to make collector-style minions. They're also going to want to take even MORE beings alive, in order to make one (or more) new reapers, a process that requires living sentients.

That you used the word "probably" should be enough of an indication to you that this is all just your own supposition. This isn't stated for a fact anywhere in the story of ME2.

No, it isn't a fact. It's our new theory, based on the current evidence we have available... see above. In the same way it wasn't stated explicitly that reapers were reaping us for our tech and only our tech (a character simply drew that conclusion from evidence available at the time), what Mass Effect 2 is providing us with is more clues, using which we can update our hypothesis. I like stories where we're given evidence and can theorize along with the characters, untll the big reveal. That is the kind of story Mass Effect is. It isn't for everyone.

So ok, to stick entirely to the facts we learned in ME2, omitting any obvious conclusions, we learned this:

2. The last time the reapers attacked, they took the time to take a bunch of Protheans to use as a servant race. They just indoctrinated them at first, but that degrades a species over time, so they replaced bits of them with tech. At this point, so much of them has been replaced with tech that they are waning in their usefulness.

I admit that I am just forming a theory based on the evidence when I say that these facts suggest that they will probably do something like this again.

If you do not think that the fact that someone did something before indicates they will probably do it again, that's fine. I'm willing to make that leap, until/unless ME3 comes by and gives me some contradictory evidence. I will admit that a lot of Mass Effect's plot relies on your willingness to entertain a theory that is not yet established as fact. The willingness to play along with the Lupus hypothesis, until it turns out to be something else. If you are completely unwilling to entertain a theory that has not been proven as fact, and insist that all theories you are presented with never change in the face of new evidence, then I can see why you would have a problem with this story.

JKoopman wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...
3. The Reapers decide to just outright orbitally bombard some planets, but they also spend some time on indoctrination and harvesting. Also, during the "downtime" they use a slave race to take samples, and evaluate which of the currently active races are best suited for slave-dom, which are best suited for reaper-dom, and which are best suited for orbital bombardment.

Again, nothing we didn't already know from ME1.

All we learn in ME1 is that the Reapers killed most of the Protheans, indoctrinating some of them in order to find and kill the rest.

Where in ME1 was it established or hinted that the Reapers build and maintain a multi-generational slave race for the point of obtaining samples from other species in order to study them and determine which species are most suited for future use? I don't remember that ever being established. I also don't remember it being established that some races were being evaluated for other reasons, to determine if they were useful as building materials for Reapers. These are all new facts, building on preliminary ideas established in ME1.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 07 avril 2011 - 09:11 .

[Fixers0]

Fixers0 wrote...

Found it in one of smudboy's videos, slightly edited to be more clear.

Smudboy's list of why mass effect 2 has a bad plot.
1. Plot holes.
2. Lack of plot expostion of the development.
3. Random plot progression
4. Mysterious/unclear enemy goals and plan.
5. Disconnected from the overarching plot of Mass Effect.
6. Retcons.
7. Poor Pacing of events.
8. Too Passive protaganist.
9. A poor 'antagonist.
10. 1 dimensional plot devices .
11. Flimsy and unknow plot or goal.
12 Useless Characters side stories.

Just to clarify, i think it's better to give an example of what Smudboy means.

1. Why didn't we show the footage of the Collectors from freedoms Progess to the Alliance.
2. There was no build-up to the final conclusion.
3. TIM gives us main plot missions at random intervals, there's no journey or adventure.
4. We never find anything out of exact plan of the Collectors (or the Reapers) over the course of the game.
5. The game was just mass effect 1.5 stop the Reapers before the enter the Galaxy.
6. Reapers suddenly need organics to pro-create, without further expostion this is a retcon.
7. The game i just event after event, ther is no specific storyline.
8. Shepard has no curiosity in what's going on and never propses an idea, it's always, TIM, EDI, Joker or a squadmate. 
9. Both Harbinger and The Collector general were virtualy invisible in the plot.
10. A shuttle to no were.
11. The Goal behind the game remains very unclear, go through the Omega 4 Relay but first recruit Characters.
12. the Character story's had nothing to do with the stopping the Collectors/Reapers.

Personaly i agree with the majority of this points, though i think that this list can be reduced to four or five main plot problems .

Modifié par Fixers0, 07 avril 2011 - 09:13 .

[squee913]

JKoopman wrote...

Where did I say I was guessing about anything? ME1 flat out tells us what the Reapers are harvesting us for: They are harvesting us for our technology, then wiping us out. It doesn't explain WHY they're harvesting us for our technology, but then neither does ME2 explain WHY the Reapers are apparently harvesting us for our biology. It simply tells us WHAT they're harvesting us for. In ME1, it's our technology. In ME2, it's our biology.

No, they say, "They are letting us advance to the level they need and then wiping us out." That is very different than They are harvesting us for our technology, then wiping us out. and could mean many different things. You are simply GUESSING that it what it meant.

Tali was making a guess based on what little Sovereign had told them. EDI has been mining Collector databases every time she has been near them. So yes, I would say EDI would be in a better position to tell us what they want.

Modifié par squee913, 07 avril 2011 - 09:13 .

[JKoopman]

Mesina2 wrote...

JKoopman wrote...

Where did I say I was guessing about anything? ME1 flat out tells us what the Reapers are harvesting us for: They are harvesting us for our technology, then wiping us out. It doesn't explain WHY they're harvesting us for our technology, but then neither does ME2 explain WHY the Reapers are apparently harvesting us for our biology. It simply tells us WHAT they're harvesting us for. In ME1, it's our technology. In ME2, it's our biology.

Who says that?

Sovereign or squadmate?

And who says anything about the Reapers harvesting us to facilitate Reaper reproduction by melting organics into grey goo?

Harbinger or Normandy AI?

ME1 established a supposed motivation for the Reapers: That they are harvesting organics for their technology. This is supported by Sovereign; an actual Reaper. ME2 comes along, contradicts the established motivation via a "squadmate's" supposition with no supporting exposition from Harbinger and suddenly it's sacrosanct bibilical truth and anyone who subscribes to the original motivation is just "misinterpereting facts"? The fudge?

If you simply would rather subscribe to the later motivation, that's fine. But don't try to claim that ME2's motivation didn't contradict ME1's or tell people who're puzzled by the sudden change in motivations that they just didn't pay enough attention.

[JKoopman]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

****Warning! I use Harry Potter spoilers as analogies in this reply. ZOMG. Welcome to five years ago, internet!****

JKoopman wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...
We learn a lot of really important stuff in ME2.  A LOT of stuff. Why do the reapers let organic life evolve if they're just going to reap them? What happens during a Reaper Attack? How do the Reapers monitor the Galaxy during their downtime?
These questions were neatly answered:
1. They let organic life evolve because they need us, either as slave races or fuel for their goo vats.

We already knew from ME1 that Reapers use organics as slave races. That's nothing new. And the info about "goo vats" actually contradicts what we're given in ME1.

Where in ME1 did we hear that the Reapers use anything other than individual indoctrination? Where did they tell us that they subvert entire races, and turn them into servants?  Where did we learn that they use us to make Reapers?There are the Keepers, yes, but their function and design is radically different than the collectors, and has very different implications. The fact that the Reapers once made a slave race, millions of years ago, is one thing. The fact that they made one the last time they were here, and maintained that Race for 50,000 years until it reached the end of its usability for them... that has different implications altogether.

Sovereign: "Your civilization is based on the technology of the mass relays; our technology. By using it, your society develops along the paths we desire."
Tali: "They're harvesting us! Letting our technology advance to the level they need, then wiping us out!"

This actually makes more sense. After all, why would the Reapers direct organic races along a specific technological path and harvest us only once our civilizations had advanced to a desired point if their intention is to harvest us for our biology? Our biology isn't affected by our ability to achieve spaceflight or use mass relays. Why not begin the cycle of harvesting before the first organic race has made it into the Industrial Age, when no one would stand a chance against them?

Conflicting information--especially conflicting information that makes no sense--doesn't give us a better understanding of the Reapers.

No offense to Tali, but that was just her theory. If a character in a book develops a theory, and then later that theory is contradicted by evidence, that is not a plot hole. In Harry Potter there is a ton of evidence that Snape was clearly evil. It's logical for the characters to conclude that he's probably evil. Then, a book or two later, more evidence comes to light, proving that he is good! Directly contradicting what characters said earlier! That isn't a plothole! Is it a plothole on House when they develop one diagnosis based on the evidence, and then later in the episode they realize they've been looking at the evidence wrong, and what they thought was Lupus is actually Cholera? No! It's a new assessment of what is going on, given new information.

Evidence in ME1 caused the characters to come to one conclusion. Additional evidence from ME2, added to the evidence in ME1, causes characters to alter their conclusion. This happens in every mystery story. You come up with a theory, new evidence comes to light, you change your theory. You still haven't provided any place where evidence in ME2 directly contradicts evidence in ME1 - only that new evidence makes theories that characters in ME1 developed seem incorrect. You were willing to take those theories as read in ME1 - you were emotionally invested in the idea that Snape was evil, and now that new evidence comes to light, you're upset. I can understand that.  I hate it when I have a good theory all worked up and then the plot goes and contradicts it... I'm looking at you, Lost!

JKoopman wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

2. When they attack, it's going to take a while, because they're probably going to want to take a substantial portion of at least one of our races alive, in order to make collector-style minions. They're also going to want to take even MORE beings alive, in order to make one (or more) new reapers, a process that requires living sentients.

That you used the word "probably" should be enough of an indication to you that this is all just your own supposition. This isn't stated for a fact anywhere in the story of ME2.

No, it isn't a fact. It's our new theory, based on the current evidence we have available... see above. In the same way it wasn't stated explicitly that reapers were reaping us for our tech and only our tech (a character simply drew that conclusion from evidence available at the time), what Mass Effect 2 is providing us with is more clues, using which we can update our hypothesis. I like stories where we're given evidence and can theorize along with the characters, untll the big reveal. That is the kind of story Mass Effect is. It isn't for everyone.

So ok, to stick entirely to the facts we learned in ME2, omitting any obvious conclusions, we learned this:

2. The last time the reapers attacked, they took the time to take a bunch of Protheans to use as a servant race. They just indoctrinated them at first, but that degrades a species over time, so they replaced bits of them with tech. At this point, so much of them has been replaced with tech that they are waning in their usefulness.

I admit that I am just forming a theory based on the evidence when I say that these facts suggest that they will probably do something like this again.

If you do not think that the fact that someone did something before indicates they will probably do it again, that's fine. I'm willing to make that leap, until/unless ME3 comes by and gives me some contradictory evidence. I will admit that a lot of Mass Effect's plot relies on your willingness to entertain a theory that is not yet established as fact. The willingness to play along with the Lupus hypothesis, until it turns out to be something else. If you are completely unwilling to entertain a theory that has not been proven as fact, and insist that all theories you are presented with never change in the face of new evidence, then I can see why you would have a problem with this story.

JKoopman wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...
3. The Reapers decide to just outright orbitally bombard some planets, but they also spend some time on indoctrination and harvesting. Also, during the "downtime" they use a slave race to take samples, and evaluate which of the currently active races are best suited for slave-dom, which are best suited for reaper-dom, and which are best suited for orbital bombardment.

Again, nothing we didn't already know from ME1.

All we learn in ME1 is that the Reapers killed most of the Protheans, indoctrinating some of them in order to find and kill the rest.

Where in ME1 was it established or hinted that the Reapers build and maintain a multi-generational slave race for the point of obtaining samples from other species in order to study them and determine which species are most suited for future use? I don't remember that ever being established. I also don't remember it being established that some races were being evaluated for other reasons, to determine if they were useful as building materials for Reapers. These are all new facts, building on preliminary ideas established in ME1.

I can pretty much dismiss this entire post with one word: Keepers.

[CroGamer002]

^So guessing of AI who was scanning every info from Collectors when in contact is less credible then squadmates just assuming from little info they got few seconds after?

[Almostfaceman]

JKoopman wrote...

I can pretty much dismiss this entire post with one word: Keepers.

The Keepers run a ship.  They do not obtain samples from other species in order to study them and determine which species are more suited for future use.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

[quote]JKoopman wrote...

[quote]Mesina2 wrote...

[quote]JKoopman wrote...

Where did I say I was guessing about anything? ME1 flat out tells us what the Reapers are harvesting us for: They are harvesting us for our technology, then wiping us out. It doesn't explain WHY they're harvesting us for our technology, but then neither does ME2 explain WHY the Reapers are apparently harvesting us for our biology. It simply tells us WHAT they're harvesting us for. In ME1, it's our technology. In ME2, it's our biology.
[/quote]

Who says that?

Sovereign or squadmate?

[/quote]

And who says anything about the Reapers harvesting us to facilitate Reaper reproduction by melting organics into grey goo?

Harbinger or Normandy AI?

ME1 established a supposed motivation for the Reapers: That they are harvesting organics for their technology. This is supported by Sovereign; an actual Reaper.ME2 comes along, contradicts the established motivation via a "squadmate's" supposition with no supporting exposition
from Harbinger and suddenly it's sacrosanct bibilical truth and anyone
who subscribes to the original motivation is just "misinterpereting
facts"? The fudge?

If you simply would rather subscribe to the
later motivation, that's fine. But don't try to claim that ME2's
motivation didn't contradict ME1's or tell people who're puzzled by the
sudden change in motivations that they just didn't pay enough attention.
[/quote][/quote]

Where is this supported by him? His speech you quote only indicates that they shape our progression by letting us use the mass relays. Not WHY they shape our progression by letting us use the mass relays.

I think it is so we never develop tech that makes us harder to Reap. In ME1 I honestly thought it was for both reasons: they limit our technology so we don't do anything expected, and also so we develop the technology they want. Sovereign's statement can clearly be interpreted several ways.

Basically there are two theories about why the Reapers Reap. In ME1, there was an equal amount of evidence for both of those theories. Now there is more evidence for one of them, and evidence for a new theory altogether. This is how theories are supposed to work! You build one based on the existing facts and then, when new facts come to light, you update your theories! You don't just stick to your theory of Lamarkian evolution after more evidence for Darwinian evolution comes to light, just because, at first, Lamarkian evolution seemed like the more likely theory! You adapt which theory you favor as you gather evidence!