546 réponses à ce sujet

[Almostfaceman]

JKoopman wrote...

The point is, people were trying to defend ME2 by saying that anyone who felt that the Reapers were simply machines out to harvest organic races for their technology instead of semi-organic "sapient constructs" out to harvest organic races to facilitate Reaper baby-making were simply deluded, mistaken, "misinterpereting facts" and had nothing on which to support their position. They were saying that ME1 never suggested this. I've clearly shown otherwise.

Also, it was meant specifically to refute your argument that we learned something about the Reapers or their motivations in ME2. We learned an alternate theory. A possible explanation for their motives which conflicts with the previous possible explanation. So, which is it? And how does it help us? And if we can't be sure either way, then did we really learn anything.

EDI doesn't say she's guessing when she says they're sapient constructs.

Shepard: The Reapers are machines - why do they need humans at all?
EDI: Incorrect. Reapers are sapient constructs.  A hybrid of organic and inorganic material.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

JKoopman wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

JKoopman wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...

^So guessing of AI who was scanning every info from Collectors when in contact is less credible then squadmates just assuming from little info they got few seconds after?

You assume that EDI was somehow connected to the Collector database. We've been over this before. There is no evidence that suggests this is the case, and she doesn't say that she's pulling the info from Collector databanks. In fact, she uses many modifying phrases like "I assume", "It would seem", "It appears", etc that would indicate the exact opposite.

In point of fact, when questioned by Shepard about what purposes the Human Reaper could be for, EDI flat out says, "They may be facilitating the equivalent of Reaper reproduction. Or it could serve some other purpose. I do not have the data to speculate further."

How much more evidence do you need that this was all just speculation on EDI's part when she herself even tells you that she's speculating?

Your attempted mockery, as usual, falls flat.

You've just proved my point.

Nobody should be too surprised when a current theory gets replaced with another one. Nobody should take any theory as read.

Traditional science fiction (the kind that isn't Kurasawa movies in space) is all about trying to develop a theory based on evidence.  This means we have to continually re-evaluate all the evidence we've gathered, and determine our degree of confidence in that evidence.

Right now there are a few facts I'm fairly certain of For Now:  the Reapers Reap everything every 50,000 years or so, they've been doing this for tens of millions of years, the protheans were the last race of organics, the collectors are modified versions of the protheans, the Reapers can interact with the Citadal to open up a corridor to dark space, the Reapers build or modified the Keepers, the Reapers were controlling the Collectors, the collectors were dissolving humans into go and building something that looked like a Reaper, the collectors had pods for a LOT more humans than they had taken, the Reapers can do indoctrination.

I may have missed something, but that list contains most of the things we're actually pretty sure about. I'd say "reasonably sure" because they are things that we have both been told and seen direct evidence of.

So to make theories, we have to make some guesses. Because of that our theories may change as we  make educated guessed based on the information we're not sure of.

If we're only allowed to think about facts we're pretty sure are true, and not make educated guesses based on facts we are less sure of, then it's really hard for us to think or plan effectively.

The point is, people were trying to defend ME2 by saying that anyone who felt that the Reapers were simply machines out to harvest organic races for their technology instead of semi-organic "sapient constructs" out to harvest organic races to facilitate Reaper baby-making were simply deluded, mistaken, "misinterpereting facts" and had nothing on which to support their position. They were saying that ME1 never suggested this. I've clearly shown otherwise.

Also, it was meant specifically to refute your argument that we learned something about the Reapers or their motivations in ME2. We learned an alternate theory. A possible explanation for their motives which conflicts with the previous possible explanation. So, which is it? And how does it help us? And if we can't be sure either way, then did we really learn anything.

I didn't enter this argument under the premise that theories we develop in ME2 are definitely going to be proven right.

My premise is this: ME2 develops and advances ME1's plot. It isn't an unrelated, irrelevant side plot like some suggest, and most of the things smudboy lists as inconsistencies are not.

Subpremise: ME2's plot teaches us some valuable facts that will be relevant in ME3. It also gives us some suspect facts that we can use to theorize productively about ME3, as long as we don't take those theories as the gospel truth.

One of Smudboy's major assertions seems to be that the collector story isn't directly relevant to the main reaper plot. I disagree. The collector plot gives us a lot of really valuable information, that expands upon premises established in ME1.

Stuff we learned in ME2
The collectors are modified versions of the protheans, the Reapers were controlling the Collectors, the collectors were dissolving humans into go and building something that looked like a Reaper, the collectors had pods for a LOT more humans than they had taken, the collectors were previously known to take samples of various organic life forms

Stuff we think is probably true based on ME2,
The Collectors are losing effectiveness and may need to be replaced soon.

Stuff that might be true, and we can use to construct theories, as long as we are prepared to revise these theories in light of future evidence:
The Reapers aren't just going to murder all organics outright, they will probably try to capture some of them for one purpose or another. This gives us a new wrinkle in our strategy.

These are the central plot developments of ME2. I think they are important, interesting, and a logical progression from premises brought up in ME1. I am not 100% certain they are all true, they are just the best theory I have been able to make given the evidence presented so far.

I like being given evidence and allowed to develop theories based on that evidence. I prefer that method of storytelling over simply being explicitly told everything at the outset. That is why I think Mass Effect is a very well-written traditional science fiction story.

[Almostfaceman]

JKoopman wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...

JKoopman wrote...

Her being based on Reaper tech or not, the fact that she has to guess--even if one were to assume that they were "educated" guesses despite there being no evidence to support this position one way or the other--would seem to indicate that she doesn't know regardless.

You choose to believe EDI that knows what she's talking about. That's fine. That's your choice. But recognize that it IS a choice. That it ISN'T sacrosant fact. That it DOES conflict with the previously established motivations. And that people who don't subscribe to your specific belief AREN'T simply deluded and misrepresenting the plot.

Um, what previously established motivations?  Are you talking about what Tali said?  Because that was guesswork as well.

Yes, it was guesswork. I haven't said otherwise. But it was the originally established guesswork; and guesswork that makes substantially more sense, I might add. ME2 then came along and dropped an entirely different (and frankly ridiculous) set of guesswork on us with no elaboration. That's how and why people can say "Um, I thought this was what the Reapers were about. And now it's that?" and why it's not just some baseless claim. Pardon if I'm not making myself clear.

No, people can say "I thought X and now it's Y" because they forgot it was guesswork in the first place and made assumptions.  Now you're saying one guesswork is better than another.

And part of what EDI tells us isn't guesswork. (see previous post) 

[TMA LIVE]

The only thing I really didn't like about his review is when he asked, "Why didn't we just blow up the Omega 4 Relay?" And I'm like, "You want to blow up an entire system and the people in it because some aliens are abducting people? And you were against the whole Virmire explosion?"

Modifié par TMA LIVE, 07 avril 2011 - 11:22 .

[Kingthlayer]

xzxzxz701 wrote...

Stopped at 3:48. He doesn't even know what he is talking about.

Far longer than my 30 seconds lol.  I think it's a combination of his voice and really ****ty jokes that makes his videos unwatchable.

I do find the people who treat him like a god to be quite sad though, watching a review that is longer than half the DLC in the first place.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Big Mac Heart Attack wrote...

xzxzxz701 wrote...

Stopped at 3:48. He doesn't even know what he is talking about.

Far longer than my 30 seconds lol.  I think it's a combination of his voice and really ****ty jokes that makes his videos unwatchable.

I do find the people who treat him like a god to be quite sad though, watching a review that is longer than half the DLC in the first place.

Length doesn't enter into it, when it comes to entertainment. Have you ever heard of the Red Letter Media review of the Phantom menace? It's more than an hour long, almost as long as the movie, and it is GREAT. Maybe it's just spoiled me for criticism vids. Also, the RLM guy's voice is super annoying... but it's weird and annoying intentionally, and just gets more outrageous as the video goes on.

Man, I need to watch those again.

[squee913]

Saphra Deden wrote...


Let's summarize the threat at the end of ME1, shall we?

ME1: The Reapers plan to invade the galaxy and harvest it for unspecified reasons.

ME2: The Reaprs plan to invade the galaxy and harvest it for unspecified reasons.

I hate this over simplification, because I can do this all day.

Star Wars 4 : The rebels are fighting for their lives against he empire, but here is hope!

Star Wars 5: The rebels are fighting for their lives against he empire, but here is hope!

Matix 1: The humans are fighting a war against the machines to free mankind.

Matix 2: The humans are fighting a war against the machines to free mankind.

Fellowship of the ring: Frodo and Sam try to find a way into Mordor, and Sauron gathers his forces to attack middle earth.

Two Towers: Frodo and Sam try to find a way into Mordor, and Sauron gathers his forces to attack middle earth.

See? I can over simplify all day long.

[JKoopman]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

One of Smudboy's major assertions seems to be that the collector story isn't directly relevant to the main reaper plot. I disagree. The collector plot gives us a lot of really valuable information, that expands upon premises established in ME1.

Stuff we learned in ME2
The collectors are modified versions of the protheans, the Reapers were controlling the Collectors, the collectors were dissolving humans into go and building something that looked like a Reaper, the collectors had pods for a LOT more humans than they had taken, the collectors were previously known to take samples of various organic life forms

All of which is effectively irrelevant as of the destruction of the Collectors and the Human Reaper. It was a side-story. That side story has been concluded. I don't see how any of it is going to be relevant to ME3.

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Stuff we think is probably true based on ME2,
The Collectors are losing effectiveness and may need to be replaced soon.

I can't recall where this was speculated anywhere in ME2. I certainly never got the impression that the Collectors were being phased out or that humanity was being considered by the Reapers as a replacement.

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Stuff that might be true, and we can use to construct theories, as long as we are prepared to revise these theories in light of future evidence:
The Reapers aren't just going to murder all organics outright, they will probably try to capture some of them for one purpose or another. This gives us a new wrinkle in our strategy.

Except that we already knew that the Reapers weren't simply going to murder everyone outright, because it was explained in ME1 how the Reapers would use whole colonies of indoctrinated Protheans as "bait" to lure out hidden enclaves. We know that Reapers use organics as slaves via the Keepers. How does it change anything? It's useless, redundant information.

That's why people say that ME2 went off on a tangent and will have no relevance to ME3. We didn't learn or accomplish anything useful or relevant to the central plotline of stopping the Reaper invasion. We're literally right back where we started at the end of ME1, except now the Reapers are at our doorstep instead of being a threat at some arbitrarily distant point in time. Others have said it best: ME2 was filler. There was no plot-relevant reason for it to have even existed. You could easily go from ME1 directly to ME3 simply assuming that x years have passed and be none the worse off for it.

Modifié par JKoopman, 07 avril 2011 - 11:31 .

[squee913]

JKoopman wrote...

squee913 wrote...

You just don't want to admit that there is more than one way to interpret what Sovereign said.

At least we're getting somewhere. You admit that there's more than one possible way to interperet the conversation with Sovereign. That's at least a step up from (to use your own words) swearing up and down that ME2 showed us without a shadow of a doubt that the Reapers organics for our biological components in order to facilitate Reaper reproduction, and that anyone who thinks otherwise is just "misinterpereting facts".

I'm sorry? when did I ever say this? Please, do tell.

[Almostfaceman]

squee913 wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...


Let's summarize the threat at the end of ME1, shall we?

ME1: The Reapers plan to invade the galaxy and harvest it for unspecified reasons.

ME2: The Reaprs plan to invade the galaxy and harvest it for unspecified reasons.

I hate this over simplification, because I can do this all day.

Star Wars 4 : The rebels are fighting for their lives against he empire, but here is hope!

Star Wars 5: The rebels are fighting for their lives against he empire, but here is hope!

Matix 1: The humans are fighting a war against the machines to free mankind.

Matix 2: The humans are fighting a war against the machines to free mankind.

Fellowship of the ring: Frodo and Sam try to find a way into Mordor, and Sauron gathers his forces to attack middle earth.

Two Towers: Frodo and Sam try to find a way into Mordor, and Sauron gathers his forces to attack middle earth.

See? I can over simplify all day long.

 Pure genius! 

[Il Divo]

JKoopman wrote...

Sovereign specifically states that the Reapers intentionally develop organic races down a desired technological path and harvest us at the apex of our civilizations, from which Tali extrapolates that they're harvesting us for our technology. As I said, this makes far more sense than allowing organic species to rise to the apex of their technological glory before harvesting them for their biological components.

The Reapers harvesting the galaxy for biological components is no more or less sensible than their motives being 'beyond understanding'. All that conversation actually tells us is that the Reapers have a God complex. Your logic is that "this is more sensible" but the Reapers have already stated that their logic is 'beyond us' in the first place. You're the only person I've yet seen who thought that the purpose of the cycle was for our technology. Every other person I've spoken to did not have any indication as to the Reapers' potential goals, until ME2.  

And Tali is not considered an expert source. She is presented with all the same information as the audience, and it is not established that she has more behind the scenes information in the manner that EDI does. EDI could be wrong, which she herself admits, but the likelihood of her simply choosing a random motivation out of a hat is far less than that of a squadmate.

You act like I'm just pulling this out of my ass. People were specifically saying that there was no evidence whatsoever to support the idea that Reapers weren't harvesting organics to be used in Reaper reproduction, and that anyone who thought otherwise was just "misinterpereting facts" from ME1 and there was no contradiction or conflict of motivations. Not only have I shown that there was substantial evidence to support that idea, but also that the idea that organics are used to facilitate Reaper reproduction is even admitted in ME2 to be nothing more than speculation on EDI's part.

Except that throughout the suicide mission (and before), EDI has repeatedly shown that she is able to analyze information/situations on the fly. Even on the Collector Ship, in a manner of seconds EDI was able to confirm that they contained Prothean DNA. EDI's speculation that every Reaper is part organic could be a throw-away, but to say that she simply 'made it up' is suspect. This is different from Tali's which is a very clear throw-away line, much like "They are going to target Earth!".

At this point, continuing to argue the fact just makes you all look like hypocrites.

No, it just means that we consider the source when dealing with plot points.

One of my favorites criticisms of Mass Effect 2 is when people talk about how the Collectors were going to target Earth because of that squad mate who says so on the Collector Ship. The remark is definitely stupid, but it's not based on any sort of evidence, hence why the conclusion that the Collectors are going to target Earth itself, as they currently are equipped, is unsupported.

Modifié par Il Divo, 07 avril 2011 - 11:44 .

[squee913]

Saphra Deden wrote...

squee913 wrote...

I hate this over simplification, because I can do this all day.

Star Wars 4 : The rebels are fighting for their lives against he empire, but here is hope!

Star Wars 5: The rebels are fighting for their lives against he empire, but here is hope!

Ah ah ah! Not so fast. Star Wars 5 changes that conflict for its protagonist. You know, that fellow who is the main character of the story, the character we are meant to identify with?

Also I don't think bringing up the Matrix trilogy will help you here. Those are some of the worst sequels ever made.

I haven't over simplifed, I have just simplified. You are trying to avoid adressing the point I was making.

But now you are talking about character development not the over all plot. Two very different things and far more complicated than the once sentence you used to sum up ME1 and ME2. How did know Vader was lukes father change the empires plans? Our the Rebel's desperate struggle? Or.... anything beyond Lukes own personal feelings?

I'm not say it wasn't important to the character, or the viewer, but how does this change the construction of the second Death star? Or the Rebel's plan to destroy it? Or even the battle to destroy it? Take out Luke and Vader, and the movie would have ended up pretty much the same way.

[JKoopman]

squee913 wrote...

JKoopman wrote...

squee913 wrote...

You just don't want to admit that there is more than one way to interpret what Sovereign said.

At least we're getting somewhere. You admit that there's more than one possible way to interperet the conversation with Sovereign. That's at least a step up from (to use your own words) swearing up and down that ME2 showed us without a shadow of a doubt that the Reapers organics for our biological components in order to facilitate Reaper reproduction, and that anyone who thinks otherwise is just "misinterpereting facts".

I'm sorry? when did I ever say this? Please, do tell.

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

What was contradicted? And your forget the ME2 introducted the fact that  the reapers are made out of people.

Sovereign in ME1 indicates quite the opposite.

He never does. Stop making things up.

You didn't say it. Whatever(can't be bothered to include the numbers) did. I just borrowed your part about swearing up and down without a shadow of a doubt. It was a step up for the argument as a whole, not with you personally. Sorry if there was any confusion.

Modifié par JKoopman, 07 avril 2011 - 11:43 .

[Almostfaceman]

Il Divo wrote...

JKoopman wrote...

Sovereign specifically states that the Reapers intentionally develop organic races down a desired technological path and harvest us at the apex of our civilizations, from which Tali extrapolates that they're harvesting us for our technology. As I said, this makes far more sense than allowing organic species to rise to the apex of their technological glory before harvesting them for their biological components.

Tali does not have any basis for such a claim, that's why your logic is skewed. The Reapers harvesting the galaxy for biological components is no more or less sensible than their motives being 'beyond understanding'. All that conversation actually tells us is that the Reapers have a God complex. Your logic is that "this is more sensible" but the Reapers have already stated that their logic is 'beyond us' in the first place. You're the only person I've yet seen who thought that the purpose of the cycle was for our technology. Every other person I've spoken to did not have any indication as to the Reapers' potential goals, until ME2.  

And Tali is not considered an expert source. She is presented with all the same information as the audience, and it is not established that she has more behind the scenes information in the manner that EDI does. EDI could be wrong, which she herself admits, but the likelihood of her simply choosing a random motivation out of a hat is far less than that of a squadmate.

You act like I'm just pulling this out of my ass. People were specifically saying that there was no evidence whatsoever to support the idea that Reapers weren't harvesting organics to be used in Reaper reproduction, and that anyone who thought otherwise was just "misinterpereting facts" from ME1 and there was no contradiction or conflict of motivations. Not only have I shown that there was substantial evidence to support that idea, but also that the idea that organics are used to facilitate Reaper reproduction is even admitted in ME2 to be nothing more than speculation on EDI's part.

Except that throughout the suicide mission (and before), EDI has repeatedly shown that she is able to analyze information/situations on the fly. Even on the Collector Ship, in a manner of seconds EDI was able to confirm that they contained Prothean DNA. EDI's speculation that every Reaper is part organic could be a throw-away, but to say that she simply 'made it up' is suspect. This is different from Tali's which is a very clear throw-away line, much like "They are going to target Earth!".

At this point, continuing to argue the fact just makes you all look like hypocrites.

No, it just means that we consider the source when dealing with plot points.

One of my favorites criticisms of Mass Effect 2 is when people talk about how the Collectors were going to target Earth because of that squad mate who says so on the Collector Ship. The remark is definitely stupid, but it's not based on any sort of evidence, hence why the conclusion that the Collectors are going to target Earth itself, as they currently are equipped, is unsupported.

I'll go one step further - EDI asserts that the Reapers are part organic.  It is not guess-work, she flat-out corrects Shepard in this matter:

Shepard: The Reapers are machines - why do they need humans at all?
EDI: Incorrect. Reapers are sapient constructs.  A hybrid of organic and inorganic material.

Modifié par Almostfaceman, 07 avril 2011 - 11:46 .

[JKoopman]

Il Divo wrote...

JKoopman wrote...

Sovereign specifically states that the Reapers intentionally develop organic races down a desired technological path and harvest us at the apex of our civilizations, from which Tali extrapolates that they're harvesting us for our technology. As I said, this makes far more sense than allowing organic species to rise to the apex of their technological glory before harvesting them for their biological components.

The Reapers harvesting the galaxy for biological components is no more or less sensible than their motives being 'beyond understanding'. All that conversation actually tells us is that the Reapers have a God complex. Your logic is that "this is more sensible" but the Reapers have already stated that their logic is 'beyond us' in the first place. You're the only person I've yet seen who thought that the purpose of the cycle was for our technology. Every other person I've spoken to did not have any indication as to the Reapers' potential goals, until ME2.  

And Tali is not considered an expert source. She is presented with all the same information as the audience, and it is not established that she has more behind the scenes information in the manner that EDI does. EDI could be wrong, which she herself admits, but the likelihood of her simply choosing a random motivation out of a hat is far less than that of a squadmate.

But, again, that gets back into "Why is it not okay for Tali to take what a Reaper tells her and extrapolate the 'obvious' meaning behind it, but it IS okay for EDI to look at a humanoid Reaper-in-progress and extrapolate the 'obvious' meaning behind that?" What makes one "jumping to conclusions" and "misinterpereting facts" but makes the other accepted truth?

Il Divo wrote...

JKoopman wrote...

You act like I'm just pulling this out of my ass. People were specifically saying that there was no evidence whatsoever to support the idea that Reapers weren't harvesting organics to be used in Reaper reproduction, and that anyone who thought otherwise was just "misinterpereting facts" from ME1 and there was no contradiction or conflict of motivations. Not only have I shown that there was substantial evidence to support that idea, but also that the idea that organics are used to facilitate Reaper reproduction is even admitted in ME2 to be nothing more than speculation on EDI's part.

Except that throughout the suicide mission (and before), EDI has repeatedly shown that she is able to analyze information/situations on the fly. Even on the Collector Ship, in a manner of seconds EDI was able to confirm that they contained Prothean DNA. EDI's speculation that every Reaper is part organic could be a throw-away, but to say that she simply 'made it up' is suspect. This is different from Tali's which is a very clear throw-away line, much like "They are going to target Earth!".

Yes, EDI relates the Collector/Prothean connection after you upload your scans to her. And she interfaces with the Collector databanks aboard the ship after you've created a physical bridge between their systems allowing her to do so.

Again, she flat out tells you in ME2 that she's speculating about the purposes of the Human Reaper. I don't understand how this is even a continued point of debate.

Modifié par JKoopman, 07 avril 2011 - 11:56 .

[Almostfaceman]

JKoopman wrote...

Il Divo wrote...

JKoopman wrote...

Sovereign specifically states that the Reapers intentionally develop organic races down a desired technological path and harvest us at the apex of our civilizations, from which Tali extrapolates that they're harvesting us for our technology. As I said, this makes far more sense than allowing organic species to rise to the apex of their technological glory before harvesting them for their biological components.

The Reapers harvesting the galaxy for biological components is no more or less sensible than their motives being 'beyond understanding'. All that conversation actually tells us is that the Reapers have a God complex. Your logic is that "this is more sensible" but the Reapers have already stated that their logic is 'beyond us' in the first place. You're the only person I've yet seen who thought that the purpose of the cycle was for our technology. Every other person I've spoken to did not have any indication as to the Reapers' potential goals, until ME2.  

And Tali is not considered an expert source. She is presented with all the same information as the audience, and it is not established that she has more behind the scenes information in the manner that EDI does. EDI could be wrong, which she herself admits, but the likelihood of her simply choosing a random motivation out of a hat is far less than that of a squadmate.

But, again, that gets back into "Why is it not okay for Tali to take what a Reaper tells her and extrapolate the 'obvious' meaning behind it, but it IS okay for EDI to look at a humanoid Reaper-in-progress and extrapolate the 'obvious' meaning behind that?" What makes one "jumping to conclusions" and "misinterpereting facts" but makes the other accepted truth?

Il Divo wrote...

JKoopman wrote...

You act like I'm just pulling this out of my ass. People were specifically saying that there was no evidence whatsoever to support the idea that Reapers weren't harvesting organics to be used in Reaper reproduction, and that anyone who thought otherwise was just "misinterpereting facts" from ME1 and there was no contradiction or conflict of motivations. Not only have I shown that there was substantial evidence to support that idea, but also that the idea that organics are used to facilitate Reaper reproduction is even admitted in ME2 to be nothing more than speculation on EDI's part.

Except that throughout the suicide mission (and before), EDI has repeatedly shown that she is able to analyze information/situations on the fly. Even on the Collector Ship, in a manner of seconds EDI was able to confirm that they contained Prothean DNA. EDI's speculation that every Reaper is part organic could be a throw-away, but to say that she simply 'made it up' is suspect. This is different from Tali's which is a very clear throw-away line, much like "They are going to target Earth!".

Yes, EDI relates the Collector/Prothean connection after you upload your scans to her. And she interfaces with the Collector databanks aboard the ship after you've created a physicall bridge between their systems allowing her to do so.

And, again, she flat out tells you in ME2 that she's speculating about the purposes of the Human Reaper. I don't understand how this is even a continued point of debate.

You are getting waaaay too caught up in this "physical bridge" thing, dude.  There is no "physical bridge" when she gives you schematics for the Collector Base - before your missions starts.  She can even tell you what consoles do.  She's inside their system.

And you're making way too much of Tali's speculation - simply because you agree with it.

[Mister Ford]

JKoopman wrote...

Sovereign specifically states that the Reapers intentionally develop organic races down a desired technological path and harvest us at the apex of our civilizations, from which Tali extrapolates that they're harvesting us for our technology. As I said, this makes far more sense than allowing organic species to rise to the apex of their technological glory before harvesting them for their biological components.

No, she doesn't, watch the scene again:  

And just for clarification, it doesn't matter who is in your squad when you meet Sovereign, the dialogue will be the same.  

But whoever it is, Tali or someone else, they never say anything about technology.  The line is, "They are harvesting us, letting us advance to the level they need then wiping us out."  No one said anything about harvesting us for technology.  If it happens somewhere else in the game, maybe you could point it out.

And why would they harvest us for OUR technology, when Sovereign just stated that it is THEIR technology.  They let us develop to a certain point just so they can harvest what they already had?  How does that make sense?

[squee913]

JKoopman wrote...

squee913 wrote...

JKoopman wrote...

squee913 wrote...

You just don't want to admit that there is more than one way to interpret what Sovereign said.

At least we're getting somewhere. You admit that there's more than one possible way to interperet the conversation with Sovereign. That's at least a step up from (to use your own words) swearing up and down that ME2 showed us without a shadow of a doubt that the Reapers organics for our biological components in order to facilitate Reaper reproduction, and that anyone who thinks otherwise is just "misinterpereting facts".

I'm sorry? when did I ever say this? Please, do tell.

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

What was contradicted? And your forget the ME2 introducted the fact that  the reapers are made out of people.

Sovereign in ME1 indicates quite the opposite.

He never does. Stop making things up.

You didn't say it. Whatever(can't be bothered to include the numbers) did. I just borrowed your part about swearing up and down without a shadow of a doubt. It was a step up for the argument as a whole, not with you personally. Sorry if there was any confusion.

Oh alright... but I still don't see how this show that Whatever said there was only one way to look at what Sovereign said. You Said Sovereign indicated quite the opposite. Whatever said he never did. This is true. All he says is that Reapers lead us along paths they desire and harvest us at our apex. This does not indicate anything as far as their motives go. You Say that it makes more sense that it was for our tech because they waited til our apex. Again you are completely ignoring the idea that when we are at our apex we are at our most numerous. Trillions instead of billions. So again, Sovereign does not indicate much of anything. 

[InfiniteCuts]

I can see how this guy might get under some peoples' skin with his sarcastic tone... but he raises good points about some of the inconsistencies in ME2 in general... the type of things that people paid to write these games should have already considered before giving the okay. Regardless of how you feel about him... a Mass Effect story could only benefit from having a "Smudboy" on the writing team.

[JKoopman]

Almostfaceman wrote...

JKoopman wrote...

Il Divo wrote...

JKoopman wrote...

Sovereign specifically states that the Reapers intentionally develop organic races down a desired technological path and harvest us at the apex of our civilizations, from which Tali extrapolates that they're harvesting us for our technology. As I said, this makes far more sense than allowing organic species to rise to the apex of their technological glory before harvesting them for their biological components.

The Reapers harvesting the galaxy for biological components is no more or less sensible than their motives being 'beyond understanding'. All that conversation actually tells us is that the Reapers have a God complex. Your logic is that "this is more sensible" but the Reapers have already stated that their logic is 'beyond us' in the first place. You're the only person I've yet seen who thought that the purpose of the cycle was for our technology. Every other person I've spoken to did not have any indication as to the Reapers' potential goals, until ME2.  

And Tali is not considered an expert source. She is presented with all the same information as the audience, and it is not established that she has more behind the scenes information in the manner that EDI does. EDI could be wrong, which she herself admits, but the likelihood of her simply choosing a random motivation out of a hat is far less than that of a squadmate.

But, again, that gets back into "Why is it not okay for Tali to take what a Reaper tells her and extrapolate the 'obvious' meaning behind it, but it IS okay for EDI to look at a humanoid Reaper-in-progress and extrapolate the 'obvious' meaning behind that?" What makes one "jumping to conclusions" and "misinterpereting facts" but makes the other accepted truth?

Il Divo wrote...

JKoopman wrote...

You act like I'm just pulling this out of my ass. People were specifically saying that there was no evidence whatsoever to support the idea that Reapers weren't harvesting organics to be used in Reaper reproduction, and that anyone who thought otherwise was just "misinterpereting facts" from ME1 and there was no contradiction or conflict of motivations. Not only have I shown that there was substantial evidence to support that idea, but also that the idea that organics are used to facilitate Reaper reproduction is even admitted in ME2 to be nothing more than speculation on EDI's part.

Except that throughout the suicide mission (and before), EDI has repeatedly shown that she is able to analyze information/situations on the fly. Even on the Collector Ship, in a manner of seconds EDI was able to confirm that they contained Prothean DNA. EDI's speculation that every Reaper is part organic could be a throw-away, but to say that she simply 'made it up' is suspect. This is different from Tali's which is a very clear throw-away line, much like "They are going to target Earth!".

Yes, EDI relates the Collector/Prothean connection after you upload your scans to her. And she interfaces with the Collector databanks aboard the ship after you've created a physicall bridge between their systems allowing her to do so.

And, again, she flat out tells you in ME2 that she's speculating about the purposes of the Human Reaper. I don't understand how this is even a continued point of debate.

You are getting waaaay too caught up in this "physical bridge" thing, dude.  There is no "physical bridge" when she gives you schematics for the Collector Base - before your missions starts.  She can even tell you what consoles do.  She's inside their system.

And you're making way too much of Tali's speculation - simply because you agree with it.

I could easily say that you're making way too much of EDI's own admitted speculation simply because you agree with it as well.

That EDI/the Normandy has penetrating RADAR that can create detailed scans of the interior of ships and structures does not in any way indicate that she's inside their systems. If that's the case, then what is this about? And why does Shepard have to upload omnitool scans of their data terminals before she can analyze the data therein?

For that matter, if EDI is inside the systems of the Collector Base, why does Shepard have to physically override the vent blockages? Why does the tech expert have to physically overrde and close the bulkhead doors? Why doesn't EDI do all this like she did on the Collector Ship after you'd patched her into their systems?

Modifié par JKoopman, 08 avril 2011 - 12:08 .

[squee913]

Saphra Deden wrote...

squee913 wrote...

But now you are talking about character development not the over all plot.

The character development of the protagonist is the plot.

If you want to look at the bigger forces at work, that's fine. You know why? There were important changes there as well. At the end of the first film we saw the Rebellion victorious. In the sequel we saw the Rebellion desperately fleeing from their enemy. This time there was no heroic strike at the Empire, only desperate escape. The focus of the film was Luke and his development as a person and a Jedi.

What is the equivalent in ME2? True, the characters develop and they develop very well. There is one exception though: Shepard does not develop at all. There is no revelation for him. There is nothing to personalize the conflict. There are bits and pieces that could have accomplished that, but they were tossed aside by the narrative.

All the pieces for a great plot are in ME2, but they aren't used.

What did I miss when I summarized ME1 and ME2?

Squee wrote...

Take out Luke and Vader, and the movie would have ended up pretty much the same way.

That's neither here nor now. We aren't in the third act yet. However since you brought it up I am sure you are aware that one of Smudboy's points is that Shepard is irrelevant to the story in ME2. What information or ability does he posses that nobody else does?

You certainly can't remove Luke from Empire though because he was the entire motivation for every action Vader took. Again, there are hints of this in ME2, but it isn't developed. To Harbringer Shepard is just an inconvenience, a secondary objective. There's nothing Shepard does that another elite soldier or soldiers couldn't have done.

In ME1 only Shepard really believed in the Reapers because only he had seen the beacon from the vision.

I never said those movies did not end on different notes, just that a one sentence summation looks just about the same.

As for Shep's development; I explained this in the videos, but Shepard does not develop in the story because you are Shepard. The more you have Shepard develop a character, the less the player can pretend they are Shepard. It is ok for Luke to develop a unique characterr because we are watching him, but not pretending to BE him.

The Protagonist does not have a unique characterr so that everyone who players can ROLYPLAY themselves as the protagonist. Bioware did this in Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter, Jade empire, DAO, and ME1. Why would you expect them to suddenly change this formula in ME2?

[StowyMcStowstow]

I agree with a lot of his points. All of them, actually.

[DurkBakala]

I hate using this phrase because I find it to be the most unimaginative "insult" and in most cases it shouldn't even be considered an insult, but Smudboy really needs to get a life.

If he dislikes the story and/or the game in general, fine. That's his opinion, but he comes across as trying to force his views as fact, when the majority of his arguments are based on his personal views of what is acceptable in a sci-fi story. Not to mention a tonne of his complaints are based on nit-picky decisions by Bioware that are in no way wrong, they just very clearly didn't have the man-power or resources to do what he says they should have. Unless he was just trying to be funny....In which case, ha bloody ha!

While watching his videos, I just have to ask myself "How does he enjoy anything?" As much as a lot of us love it, in the end Mass Effect is just a fictional story that only about 5% of us will even remember when we're old, and he will most certainly not be one of them considering how critical he is of it.

Putting these videos together and making a script for them must have taken hundreds of hours (Which admittedly, is admirable) but why does he feel the need to waste that much time on something he clearly isn't a fan of.

Yes, Mass Effect is flawed. Goddamn deal with it!

Modifié par DurkBakala, 08 avril 2011 - 12:14 .