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[CulturalGeekGirl]

JKoopman wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

One of Smudboy's major assertions seems to be that the collector story isn't directly relevant to the main reaper plot. I disagree. The collector plot gives us a lot of really valuable information, that expands upon premises established in ME1.

Stuff we learned in ME2
The collectors are modified versions of the protheans, the Reapers were controlling the Collectors, the collectors were dissolving humans into go and building something that looked like a Reaper, the collectors had pods for a LOT more humans than they had taken, the collectors were previously known to take samples of various organic life forms

All of which is effectively irrelevant as of the destruction of the Collectors and the Human Reaper. It was a side-story. That side story has been concluded. I don't see how any of it is going to be relevant to ME3.

No, because it introduces a new Reaper motivation and a new tactic, one which we must factor in to future theories about their likely actions.

How many humans will they try to take alive? A few million, to release back, indoctrinated? or BILLIONS, some to indoctrinate, some to turn into a Reaper. We don't know. We now know of two possible ways they could behave, this varies our potential strategies.

I would also say that we do not know for certain that the Collectors are all dead. We know that their primary base was destroyed, but it has also been implied in ME3's marketing that the Reapers have some sort of roughly humanoid ground force. Supposition, I know... but it could be the collectors or another new slave race - if so, our knowledge of the collectors comes in handy.

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Stuff we think is probably true based on ME2,
The Collectors are losing effectiveness and may need to be replaced soon.

I can't recall where this was speculated anywhere in ME2. I certainly never got the impression that the Collectors were being phased out or that humanity was being considered by the Reapers as a replacement.

Did you talk to Mordin a lot? He theorizes that the collectors started as simply indoctrinated protheans, and as generations went on, their decay caused by continued indoctrination and genetic manipulation by the Reapers caused them to need more and more tech replacements, as their systems failed. "No glands, replaced by tech. No digestive system, replaced by tech. No soul, replaced by tech." He also says they are "more husks than slaves." Add this new evidence to what we know about indoctrination from the first game (the deeper it is, the less effective you are) and it seems reasonable to conclude, at least for now, that the collectors are less usefull than they were when they were "Fresh." Now I'm not saying Mordin is 100% correct, I explicitly say I think he probably is... because he is a genetics and biology scientist doing detailed analysis of a genetics and biology thing. So I'll take his word for it, for now, with the possibility that the reapers could be Very intelligent, and toying with him. Hmm. Tests.

I don't think the Reapers are considering humanity as a replacement. I think there is a chance they will seek a replacement among the races of the galaxy. The lore in game says they have been taking samples from all sorts of races for hundreds of years - batarians, quarians, Krogan, salarians. It may be that they choose non-baby-reaper races for this purpose. I'm not saying I know any of this before, I'm saying that ME2 has given me some new evidence to consider, and to build new theories with.

JKoopman wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Stuff that might be true, and we can use to construct theories, as long as we are prepared to revise these theories in light of future evidence:
The Reapers aren't just going to murder all organics outright, they will probably try to capture some of them for one purpose or another. This gives us a new wrinkle in our strategy.

Except that we already knew that the Reapers weren't simply going to murder everyone outright, because it was explained in ME1 how the Reapers would use whole colonies of indoctrinated Protheans as "bait" to lure out hidden enclaves. We know that Reapers use organics as slaves via the Keepers. How does it change anything? It's useless, redundant information.

Based on ME1, all we know is that the Reapers indoctrinate some people, and use them to find the rest of the people, to cause an extinction. They did once make a race of janitors to maintain their stations, but that was millions of years ago, and there was no evidence that they had ever done anything like that ever since. Unless they were building a  new Citadel, there was no indication that they would create any new slave races. In fact, the Protheans seems to tell us that all the Reapers do is indoctrinate some people to facilitate their murder rampage. It made it more difficult for us to figure out their potential motivation, and tactics to fight it.

To me, the fact that they might need resources for building a baby reaper changes their tactics. If they still want to do that, they can't just bombard earth from orbit and then indoctrinate Eden Prime. They have to send some kind of footsoldiers to earth to "collect" us, unless they want to give up on their baby plans. Will they or won't they do this? We have no way to know, but it's an important piece of intelligence.

Also, previously we only knew of one organic race they had created: the Keepers, peaceful autonomous drones who respond to signals, but can also be cut off from Reaper communication and continue to function. Now we also know about the Collectors, who can be directly controlled by a Reaper and who are used for combat. This gives us more reasons to suppose that there may be more slave races out there, another tactic to look out for.

JKoopman wrote...
That's why people say that ME2 went off on a tangent and will have no relevance to ME3. We didn't learn or accomplish anything useful or relevant to the central plotline of stopping the Reaper invasion. We're literally right back where we started at the end of ME1, except now the Reapers are at our doorstep instead of being a threat at some arbitrarily distant point in time. Others have said it best: ME2 was filler. There was no plot-relevant reason for it to have even existed. You could easily go from ME1 directly to ME3 simply assuming that x years have passed and be none the worse off for it.

I disagree.

We now know a lot more about the Reaper's tactics, and have some new theories about their motivations. We're aware of new strategies we previoulsy didn't know about... they may have extensive ground troops, for example. They may try to "capture" a substantial portion of the population, much larger than we had any reason to believe previously. I could go on and on.

While I agree that Mass Effect 2 answers few plot questions conclusively, it gives us a lot of information I believe will prove tactically and narratively relevant in the future. Maybe you are right, and there will be no collector or slave race ground troops in ME3, no attempt to capture any race to make a new reaper or a new slave race, it will turn out that the reapers are just after out technology, and ME2 will be irrelevant. I see no evidence to support these ideas, but hey, we'll see I guess.

And that's ignoring a lot of other, subplot-related development we got in ME2: the reapers use an IFF system to manipulate Mass Relays to recognize allies, we may have a cure for the Krogan Genophage, we may be able to count on the Geth as allies in ME3, etc. Subplots are also important, and we got some good ones... when we weren't running off to do random errands, an element that I think we can agree went awry, slightly.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 08 avril 2011 - 12:15 .

[Il Divo]

JKoopman wrote...

But, again, that gets back into "Why is it not okay for Tali to take what a Reaper tells her and extrapolate the 'obvious' meaning behind it, but it IS okay for EDI to look at a humanoid Reaper-in-progress and extrapolate the 'obvious' meaning behind that?" What makes one "jumping to conclusions" and "misinterpereting facts" but makes the other accepted truth?

Because Tali in that scene is the equivalent of an audience member. Tali's point of view is no different than yours or mine upon first playing Mass Effect 1 and learning that the Reapers do exist. Tali does not perform some advanced calculation, she is not shown to possess any kind of special insight into the situation. Quite simply, she (like us) has just found out about the existence of Reapers and from one comment (which Sovereign does not even address) you have deduced that it's logical for the Reapers to desire our inferior technology.

Let me give you an example of why EDI is a better source.

In Mass Effect 1, Vigil tells us that without the Citadel the Reapers are trapped in dark space. At that time, we accepted Vigil's information due to his perceived authority on the subject; he had been studying the Reapers for 50k years (since the last harvesting), made some correct predictions regarding the Citadel, and came to a conclusion regarding the Reaper situation, one which we (the audience) accepted as true.

Although we thought Vigil's assessment was correct, in Arrival we are presented with information which contradicts our authority; apparently the Reapers do have a back door into the Citadel. But until that became known, we assumed Vigil was correct on the subject, in the absence of any other evidence.

EDI is no different. Yes, she is theorizing, but she is

1) an incredibly advanced AI
2) built from Reaper technology
3) capable of making rapid calculations on the fly
4) is unlikely to simply 'invent' her own motive. If she come to any conclusion, she will tell Shepard 'I have no idea'.

And she is fairly certain that all Reapers are organic-machine hybrids. Like Vigil, I will trust EDI's word on this subject (good faith), until I am presented with evidence to the contrary. Tali has no such established authority on her behalf.

Modifié par Il Divo, 08 avril 2011 - 12:16 .

[Almostfaceman]

JKoopman wrote...

[
I could easily say that you're making way too much of EDI's own admitted speculation simply because you agree with it as well.

And that EDI/the Normandy has penetrating RADAR that can create detailed scans of the interior of ships and structures doesn't mean she's inside their systems. If that's the case, then what is this about? And why does Shepard have to upload omnitool scans of their data terminals before she can analyze it?

You could easily say it, but that wouldn't make it true.

Shepard interfacing with consoles expedites matters.  Does this exclude EDI from gathering data by other methods?  Other methods she explicitly tells you about when you talk to her about her functions. No, of course it does not.  If they had hours to loiter EDI could dig through the encryption and gather data.  She does it on the Collector Base.

And excuse me, but no RADAR on the planet is going to be able to dig into the computer programming of a console and tell us what it can do.  She points to exactly where the main control center is.

[JKoopman]

Il Divo wrote...

JKoopman wrote...

But, again, that gets back into "Why is it not okay for Tali to take what a Reaper tells her and extrapolate the 'obvious' meaning behind it, but it IS okay for EDI to look at a humanoid Reaper-in-progress and extrapolate the 'obvious' meaning behind that?" What makes one "jumping to conclusions" and "misinterpereting facts" but makes the other accepted truth?

Because Tali in that scene is the equivalent of an audience member. Tali's point of view is no different than yours or mine upon first playing Mass Effect 1 and learning that the Reapers do exist. Tali does not perform some advanced calculation, she is not shown to possess any kind of special insight into the situation. Quite simply, she (like us) has just found out about the existence of Reapers and from one comment (which Sovereign does not even address) you have deduced that it's logical for the Reapers to desire our inferior technology.

Let me give you an example of why EDI is a better source.

In Mass Effect 1, Vigil tells us that without the Citadel the Reapers are trapped in dark space. At that time, we accepted Vigil's information due to his perceived authority on the subject; he had been studying the Reapers for 50k years (since the last harvesting), made some correct predictions regarding the Citadel, and came to a conclusion regarding the Reaper situation, one which we (the audience) accepted as true.

Although we thought Vigil's assessment was correct, in Arrival we are presented with information which contradicts our authority; apparently the Reapers do have a back door into the Citadel. But until that became known, we assumed Vigil was correct on the subject, in the absence of any other evidence.

EDI is no different. Yes, she is theorizing, but she is

1) an incredibly advanced AI
2) built from Reaper technology
3) capable of making rapid calculations on the fly
4) is unlikely to simply 'invent' her own motive. If she come to any conclusion, she will tell Shepard 'I have no idea'.

And she is fairly certain that all Reapers are organic-machine hybrids. Like Vigil, I will trust EDI's word on this subject (good faith), until I am presented with evidence to the contrary. Tali has no such established authority on her behalf.

Uh huh. Except that, again, EDI tells you that she is speculating. "It may be a facilitation of Reaper reproduction. Or it might be something else entirely. I cannot speculate further."

And as there's some pretty damning evidence that contradicts the idea that EDI is puling this information from the Collector databanks, what else is there but speculation?

Modifié par JKoopman, 08 avril 2011 - 12:22 .

[Epic777]

Looks like we have to wait till me3

[Almostfaceman]

JKoopman wrote...


Uh huh. Except that, again, EDI tells you that she is speculating. "It may be a facilitation of Reaper reproduction. Or it might be something else entirely. I cannot speculate further."

And as there's some pretty damning evidence that contradicts the idea that EDI is puling this information from the Collector databanks, what else is there but speculation?

Just because the the Reapers don't spell out their motives in the data does not mean that EDI is not looking at the data.

I can read Clavell's book "Shogun" but that doesn't mean I can crawl into Clavell's brain and understand why he wrote the book, or why he made X character do Y.

[Il Divo]

JKoopman wrote...

Uh huh. Except that, again, EDI tells you that she is speculating. "It may be a facilitation of Reaper reproduction. Or it might be something else entirely. I cannot speculate further."

As Almostfaceman points out, is that even the actual line?  If I recall correctly, EDI is confident that the Reapers are hybrids. What she actually speculates on is whether the Protheans were originally intended to be a Reaper.
Even if I'm recalling the quote wrong, speculation from EDI (an authority figure) is infinitely more valuable than speculation from Tali, as I explained.
 

And as there's some pretty damning evidence that contradicts the idea that EDI is puling this information from the Collector databanks, what else is there but speculation?

Such as?

[Infinite Legend_]

I really like how Arrival pretty much made the whole ME2 plot point irrelevant, ME2 would have been so much more fun if I was actively trying to stop the reapers(with blowing up more than one mass effect relay) instead of their grade 12 science project.

Modifié par Infinite Legend , 08 avril 2011 - 12:39 .

[Dudeman315]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Stuff we learned in ME2
The collectors are modified versions of the protheans, the Reapers were controlling the Collectors, the collectors were dissolving humans into go and building something that looked like a Reaper, the collectors had pods for a LOT more humans than they had taken, the collectors were previously known to take samples of various organic life forms

Stuff we think is probably true based on ME2,
The Collectors are DEAD and may need to be replaced soon.

Something that looked like a reaper??? Which one?  Sorry to call you on a minor point but you may want to change that from "looks like" to "we are told is" in future posts. 

Having watched this I'll say that Smudboy has gone down hill but I do agree that it seems if you play LOSB and Arrival and you can skip the rest of ME2. We'll have to wait for ME3 to prove or disprove this point. Even more so if you have a tali and garrus only squadmate to survive playthrough like I do, and this possiblity leads to further speculation that ME2's plot(the characters accord to the lead dev) are mostly meaningless to the plot as a whole.

I liked LoSB and arrival but ME2 left me feeling that, "The Reapers are still coming and I'll find some way to stop them."

Can't wait to see if ME3 is good plot wise but I will not be pre-ordering like I did with ME2 because I don't think that the game will deliver to the standards I expect from bioware.

[JKoopman]

Almostfaceman wrote...

JKoopman wrote...

I could easily say that you're making way too much of EDI's own admitted speculation simply because you agree with it as well.

And that EDI/the Normandy has penetrating RADAR that can create detailed scans of the interior of ships and structures doesn't mean she's inside their systems. If that's the case, then what is this about? And why does Shepard have to upload omnitool scans of their data terminals before she can analyze it?

You could easily say it, but that wouldn't make it true.

Shepard interfacing with consoles expedites matters.  Does this exclude EDI from gathering data by other methods?  Other methods she explicitly tells you about when you talk to her about her functions. No, of course it does not.  If they had hours to loiter EDI could dig through the encryption and gather data.  She does it on the Collector Base.

And excuse me, but no RADAR on the planet is going to be able to dig into the computer programming of a console and tell us what it can do.  She points to exactly where the main control center is.

You failed to quote the remainder of my post, and as that was a rather important part I'll just go ahead and copy it for you.

JKoopman wrote...

For that matter, if EDI is inside the systems of the Collector Base, why does Shepard have to physically override the vent blockages? Why does the tech expert have to physically overrde and close the bulkhead doors? Why doesn't EDI do all this like she did on the Collector Ship after you'd patched her into their systems? Why did Shepard have to physically set the base's reactor to overload when this is one of EDI's own stated Cyberwarfare capabilities?

So yeah, IF you overlook the fact that she wasn't in control of any systems aboard the Collector Base enroute to the main control center, and IF you overlook the fact that Shepard had to physically bridge her systems aboard the Collector Ship before she could access their databanks, then her knowing where the main control center was aboard the Collector Base from a simple scan MIGHT indicate in some small way that she was privy to their information and therefor in their systems.

OR, as is far more likely, you can just look at it as yet one more example of a plothole/inconsistensy in ME2's story. All things being considered, which is more plausible?

Or hell, maybe she just used her super-computing-AI-powers to determine where the most likely location of the main control center was based on scans of how their power systems were routed? I thought that was the excuse behind EDI? That she's just so smart and reliable that she can simply make a guess and it turns out to be right.

Modifié par JKoopman, 08 avril 2011 - 12:45 .

[piemanz]

JKoopman wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...

JKoopman wrote...

[
I could easily say that you're making way too much of EDI's own admitted speculation simply because you agree with it as well.

And that EDI/the Normandy has penetrating RADAR that can create detailed scans of the interior of ships and structures doesn't mean she's inside their systems. If that's the case, then what is this about? And why does Shepard have to upload omnitool scans of their data terminals before she can analyze it?

You could easily say it, but that wouldn't make it true.

Shepard interfacing with consoles expedites matters.  Does this exclude EDI from gathering data by other methods?  Other methods she explicitly tells you about when you talk to her about her functions. No, of course it does not.  If they had hours to loiter EDI could dig through the encryption and gather data.  She does it on the Collector Base.

And excuse me, but no RADAR on the planet is going to be able to dig into the computer programming of a console and tell us what it can do.  She points to exactly where the main control center is.

You failed to quote the remainder of my post, and as that was a rather important pary I'll just go ahead and copy it for you.

JKoopman wrote...

For that matter, if EDI is inside the systems of the Collector Base, why does Shepard have to physically override the vent blockages? Why does the tech expert have to physically overrde and close the bulkhead doors? Why doesn't EDI do all this like she did on the Collector Ship after you'd patched her into their systems? Why did Shepard have to physically set the base's reactor to overload when this is one of EDI's own stated Cyberwarfare capabilities?

So yeah, IF you overlook the fact that she wasn't in control of any systems aboard the Collector Base enroute to the main control center, and IF you overlook the fact that Shepard had to physically bridge her systems aboard the Collector Ship before she could access their databanks, then her knowing where the main control center was aboard the Collector Base from a simple scan MIGHT indicate in some small way that she was privy to their information and therefor in their systems.

OR, as is far more likely, you can just look at it as yet one more example of a plothole/inconsistensy in ME2's story. All things being considered, which is more plausible?

Or hell, maybe she just used her super-computing-AI-powers to determine where the most likely location of the main control center was based on scans of how their power systems were routed? That's what defenders of ME2 are so fond of, right? Inventing narrative to explain inconsistencies?

I have a question for you.

What did you think when you saw the human paste being pumped into the metal shell?.I mean that alone indicates that it's a hybid in some way.What else would the be using it for?.Or were they just making a reaper smoothy?.

You don't have to be a super computer to work it out.

[Almostfaceman]

JKoopman wrote...

So yeah, IF you overlook the fact that she wasn't in control of any systems aboard the Collector Base enroute to the main control center, and IF you overlook the fact that Shepard had to physically bridge her systems aboard the Collector Ship before she could access their databanks, then her knowing where the main control center was aboard the Collector Base from a simple scan MIGHT indicate in some small way that she was privy to their information and therefor in their systems.

OR, as is far more likely, you can just look at it as yet one more example of a plothole/inconsistensy in ME2's story. All things being considered, which is more plausible?

Or hell, maybe she just used her super-computing-AI-powers to determine where the most likely location of the main control center was based on scans of how their power systems were routed? That's what defenders of ME2 are so fond of, right? Inventing narrative to explain inconsistencies?

Or you could look at it as you are unable to contemplate she could access systems but that didn't necessarily mean she had gained control over them and that EDI and Shepard had to *gasp* work as a TEAM to gain information from the Collector Base and she couldn't do it all from a wireless connection (a fact you LOVE to overlook) - because if she did - well that wouldn't leave very much for the video game player to do now, would it.

As a matter of fact Koopman - answer this question straight out.

Does or does not EDI have the capability to access remote computer systems wirelessly?  Yes or No.

Modifié par Almostfaceman, 08 avril 2011 - 12:50 .

[JKoopman]

piemanz wrote...

JKoopman wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...

JKoopman wrote...

[
I could easily say that you're making way too much of EDI's own admitted speculation simply because you agree with it as well.

And that EDI/the Normandy has penetrating RADAR that can create detailed scans of the interior of ships and structures doesn't mean she's inside their systems. If that's the case, then what is this about? And why does Shepard have to upload omnitool scans of their data terminals before she can analyze it?

You could easily say it, but that wouldn't make it true.

Shepard interfacing with consoles expedites matters.  Does this exclude EDI from gathering data by other methods?  Other methods she explicitly tells you about when you talk to her about her functions. No, of course it does not.  If they had hours to loiter EDI could dig through the encryption and gather data.  She does it on the Collector Base.

And excuse me, but no RADAR on the planet is going to be able to dig into the computer programming of a console and tell us what it can do.  She points to exactly where the main control center is.

You failed to quote the remainder of my post, and as that was a rather important pary I'll just go ahead and copy it for you.

JKoopman wrote...

For that matter, if EDI is inside the systems of the Collector Base, why does Shepard have to physically override the vent blockages? Why does the tech expert have to physically overrde and close the bulkhead doors? Why doesn't EDI do all this like she did on the Collector Ship after you'd patched her into their systems? Why did Shepard have to physically set the base's reactor to overload when this is one of EDI's own stated Cyberwarfare capabilities?

So yeah, IF you overlook the fact that she wasn't in control of any systems aboard the Collector Base enroute to the main control center, and IF you overlook the fact that Shepard had to physically bridge her systems aboard the Collector Ship before she could access their databanks, then her knowing where the main control center was aboard the Collector Base from a simple scan MIGHT indicate in some small way that she was privy to their information and therefor in their systems.

OR, as is far more likely, you can just look at it as yet one more example of a plothole/inconsistensy in ME2's story. All things being considered, which is more plausible?

Or hell, maybe she just used her super-computing-AI-powers to determine where the most likely location of the main control center was based on scans of how their power systems were routed? That's what defenders of ME2 are so fond of, right? Inventing narrative to explain inconsistencies?

I have a question for you.

What did you think when you saw the human paste being pumped into the metal shell?.I mean that alone indicates that it's a hybid in some way.What else would the be using it for?.Or were they just making a reaper smoothy?.

You don't have to be a super computer to work it out.

I'm not debating that they were, for whatever reason, using soylent green to construct some sort of Reaper-baby-hybrid-thing for some unknown nefarious purpose. I'm debating that it's "facillitating Reaper reporoduction" and that logically we can extrapolate from this that ALL Reapers are contructed like this and that this is the Reaper's ultimate goal and motivation for harvesting the galaxy.

[Mister Ford]

JKoopman wrote...

Uh huh. Except that, again, EDI tells you that she is speculating. "It may be a facilitation of Reaper reproduction. Or it might be something else entirely. I cannot speculate further."

And as there's some pretty damning evidence that contradicts the idea that EDI is puling this information from the Collector databanks, what else is there but speculation?

Even if you're absolutely right about EDI, and she's just guessing, how is that different from what our squadmate says on Virmire?  Why are you so quick to assume what they said is fact, but what EDI said is nothing but conjecture?

There is no contradicting going on.  Sovereign never says that the Reapers harvest organics for technology.  The squadmate never suggests that the Reapers harvest organics for technology.  The only time technology is mentioned, is when Sovereign says our civilization is based on their technology.  At no point is it suggested that organics are harvested for tech.  The line is "they are harvesting us, letting us advance to the level they need, then wiping us out."  The "level they need" may have nothing to do with technological level.  You made that assumption on your own. The game never states this as being the case.

Modifié par Mister Ford, 08 avril 2011 - 12:59 .

[JKoopman]

Almostfaceman wrote...

JKoopman wrote...

So yeah, IF you overlook the fact that she wasn't in control of any systems aboard the Collector Base enroute to the main control center, and IF you overlook the fact that Shepard had to physically bridge her systems aboard the Collector Ship before she could access their databanks, then her knowing where the main control center was aboard the Collector Base from a simple scan MIGHT indicate in some small way that she was privy to their information and therefor in their systems.

OR, as is far more likely, you can just look at it as yet one more example of a plothole/inconsistensy in ME2's story. All things being considered, which is more plausible?

Or hell, maybe she just used her super-computing-AI-powers to determine where the most likely location of the main control center was based on scans of how their power systems were routed? That's what defenders of ME2 are so fond of, right? Inventing narrative to explain inconsistencies?

Or you could look at it as you are unable to contemplate she could access systems but that didn't necessarily mean she had gained control over them and that EDI and Shepard had to *gasp* work as a TEAM to gain information from the Collector Base and she couldn't do it all from a wireless connection (a fact you LOVE to overlook) - because if she did - well that wouldn't leave very much for the video game player to do now, would it.

As a matter of fact Koopman - answer this question straight out.

Does or does not EDI have the capability to access remote computer systems wirelessly?  Yes or No.

Yes. Has she been shown to be capable of wirelessly interacting with Collector computer systems? No.

I've seen an awful lot of "ifs" and "maybes" from you so far and not a whole lot of substantiating fact, whereas I've been providing multiple instances of facts and inconsistencies that support my claim, and so far you haven't even made an attempt to refute them. You just seem to ignore them and sidestep it. All in an attempt to prove that EDI had access to priviledged information when she herself admits that she's speculating.



That just about sums up my reaction at this point.

Modifié par JKoopman, 08 avril 2011 - 01:04 .

[Almostfaceman]

JKoopman wrote...
*snip*

Well, you're good at saying how you view my opinion, which does nothing to answer my question.  Can or can not EDI access computer systems remotely via wireless?  Is or is not part of her function cyber-warfare?

It doesn't fit into your neat little theory, so to you it's implausible for EDI to be in the system.  Bury your head in the sand if you wish, but the game gives us the information on how EDI operates - you're ignoring it.

Modifié par Almostfaceman, 08 avril 2011 - 01:01 .

[Gamer790]

Saphra Deden wrote...


Stop obsessing over him. You'd do a better job defending ME2 if you focused your videos on explaining why the game is good and why it works and not ever mentioning Smudboy at all. If you did it that way people would draw their own conclusions and the truth in your vision would be clear for all to see.

To be honest I think criticizing or defending the main plot of ME2 is irrelevant because it wasn't what the game was about.  Everybody seems to agree that if BIOWARE had taken the level of focus and detail that they had given to the squad and put it towards ME2's main story instead we would have had a proper sequal.  As it stands ME2 is a great and well-made game with gameplay revisions, improved visuals and a diverse cast of unique and interesting characters, but as a continuation to an established lore and overarching plot it fails because it didn't even try to be the latter.  This is what I criticize.  The decision to make ME2 a colorful collection of events and side stories that just happened to take place between ME1 and ME3.  Of course this all just what I think not that any one has to care.<_<

[Almostfaceman]

Gamer790 wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...


Stop obsessing over him. You'd do a better job defending ME2 if you focused your videos on explaining why the game is good and why it works and not ever mentioning Smudboy at all. If you did it that way people would draw their own conclusions and the truth in your vision would be clear for all to see.

To be honest I think criticizing or defending the main plot of ME2 is irrelevant because it wasn't what the game was about.  Everybody seems to agree that if BIOWARE had taken the level of focus and detail that they had given to the squad and put it towards ME2's main story instead we would have had a proper sequal.  As it stands ME2 is a great and well-made game with gameplay revisions, improved visuals and a diverse cast of unique and interesting characters, but as a continuation to an established lore and overarching plot it fails because it didn't even try to be the latter.  This is what I criticize.  The decision to make ME2 a colorful collection of events and side stories that just happened to take place between ME1 and ME3.  Of course this all just what I think not that any one has to care.<_<

Everybody seems to agree?  So who is "everybody"?  Does that word define you and the mouse in your pocket?

[piemanz]

JKoopman wrote...


I'm not debating that they were, for whatever reason, using soylent green to construct some sort of Reaper-baby-hybrid-thing for some unknown nefarious purpose. I'm debating that it's "facillitating Reaper reporoduction" and that logically we can extrapolate from this that ALL Reapers are contructed like this and that this is the Reaper's ultimate goal and motivation for harvesting the galaxy.

But, the whole point of stopping the collectors was to stop them taking haman colonies.Harbinger spends most of his time telling shep how viable we are, and now we're presented with what appears to be a haman reaper being pumped full of human paste.

If they need human paste to make the baby reaper, and they are targeting humans then obviously it's for reproduction purposes.

Besides you're argueing Tali is as credible as EDI even though EDI witnessed one being made.

Modifié par piemanz, 08 avril 2011 - 01:13 .

[Gamer790]

Almostfaceman wrote...



Everybody seems to agree?  So who is "everybody"?  Does that word define you and the mouse in your pocket?

No I suppose not.  I guess it was just my inference from peoples reactions and what I had read on the forms.  Perhaps it presumptuous of me to make such a claim and if so I apoligize.

[Almostfaceman]

Gamer790 wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...



Everybody seems to agree?  So who is "everybody"?  Does that word define you and the mouse in your pocket?

No I suppose not.  I guess it was just my inference from peoples reactions and what I had read on the forms.  Perhaps it presumptuous of me to make such a claim and if so I apoligize.

No worries, I apologize if I was too snippy.

[Bourne Endeavor]

Mesina2 wrote...

Also for ME2 squadmate not being related to plot?

Hmh:

Miranda lead Lazarus Project that resurrected Shepard.
Jacob protects Miranda.
Garrus and Tali have history with Shepard( ME1) and do not hesitate to help him/her.
Legion was sent to investigate Shepard's death and Reapers are enemy of his section of Geth.

- Congratulations, Miranda's relevance equates Anderson's. She has one noteworthy moment and than is sidelined throughout the remainder of the game. Frankly, one could reasonably argue this away from her given she is the overseer of Project Lazarus and not specifically involved.

- Oh, he protects her... from what? The only relevance to the plot Miranda has is during the tutorial, and where is Jacob? Right, nowhere and she handles Wilson herself. Nice job, Jacob. Afterward, he is useless to the plot.

- And? Mate, do you know the definition of plot involvement because it does not mean what you think it means. They know Shepard, yay... but what do they do in the plot? Right, absolutely nothing. In fact, Tali is completely optional! Sure they are nice to have however the plot does not develop based on their being there.

- Again this is not ME2 plot relevant and simply handwaves the Geth as a legitimate opposing force, which Anderson had already confirmed. Sure it was nice to know not all Geth were evil but it did not develop Mass Effect 2's plot whatsoever, and if it is not mentioned in ME3, then the reveal is meaningless.

A plot integral character is someone who provides a means for progression. If they plot is to destroy the Collectors, then we must acquire the means to do so. In what is one of the more obvious plothole examples, Mordin accomplishes this. We cannot survive the Seeker Swarms without his research. Therefore, he is necessary for us to continue. In no other instance in the entire game does this happen again with a specific character. Such is why ME2 is not a character driven story, regardless of what BioWare claims.
******

In all honesty, I will be astonished if the Collectors or the Human-Reaper have any greater significance than the Council did. This is made evident by Arrival, wherein the entire plot of ME2 is made wholly irrelevant. If the Reapers could arrive within two days. Why in the world would building a the Terminator accomplish? If they had not brought Shepard to the relay, they would be here already.

ME2 seems to suggest BioWare did not have sufficient material for a trilogy and merely stretched what they did have to fit three games.

What I find most disconcerting, is the implication of foreshadowing Arrival has. There is a strong probability the majority of the game will take place on Earth.

Modifié par Bourne Endeavor, 08 avril 2011 - 01:18 .

[Gamer790]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Gamer790 wrote...

To be honest I think criticizing or defending the main plot of ME2 is irrelevant because it wasn't what the game was about.

You're right. It is a video game and is thus about gameplay first and anything else second.

However that doesn't mean the plot isn't bad.

I never said that the plot was good.  ME2's main plot is nonsense at its best and nonexistant at its worst.  It is, however, from this very fact that I deduce my point.  If bioware had focused on making ME2 a proper sequal it would have had a good or at least better and more believeable main plot.  However, since ME2's main plot fails it is obvious that bioware decided to make it irrelevant to overall game and instead focus on the squad.  That decision is what I criticise.

Modifié par Gamer790, 08 avril 2011 - 01:22 .