41 réponses à ce sujet

[Maria Caliban]

The Templar vs Mage conflict is central to the story of Dragon Age II. But if you play Hawke as an apostate, it's not only untouched but blatantly ignored by the people sworn to take in mages.

It occurred to me that if instead of having to be a human, Hawke could be a human or elven mage, they could have brought the mage/templar conflict to the fore much sooner and integrated Orsino and Meredith in the story during Act 2.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 07 avril 2011 - 01:36 .

[Loc'n'lol]

Maybe. But then it's quite harder to justify siding with the templars at the end. Especially if you no longer have the free get out of jail card of "we know you're an apostate but we can't touch you, for now."

There's definitely more they could have done with Hawke being a mage.

Also, I'd rather play a game where I have to be a human (or an elf, or even a dwarf) than one where I have to be a mage.

Modifié par _Loc_N_lol_, 07 avril 2011 - 01:43 .

[Raiil]

Nah. All classes bring a different perspective to the table. While I am a staunch mage lover and prefer to play them, our warriors and rogues have their part to play in this. In fact, in some ways, I find a non-mage Hawke who chooses to champion the mages of their own accord more inspiring than the apostate noble who, in some aspect, is looking to save their own skin.


Just my two cents, though.

[Plaintiff]

I dunno if that would make the story "better", just different.

I would be pissed, personally, I don't support removing the other two class options for the sake of the story. I'd rather have the choice to be a warrior/rogue and suffer some slight story/gameplay segregation then be locked in as a mage, a class which I don't particularly like and only play as after a couple playthroughs.

[Maria Caliban]

I sided with the templars are the end as a mage.

[TJPags]

To do that, I'd think they'd have had to alter the storyline. Make consequences attach to being a mage. Templars are after you, unless you make a deal with them. Turn in mages, or they hunt you . . .or your family, or friends.

Actually, I was kind of thinking the story might have played out that way, even if you played a Rogue. Kind of like, do what we tell you, or we take in your sister.

Honestly, given the central conflict of this story, the fact that Hawke can be a mage, and the fact ignored - or the same for Bethany, Merrill and Anders - seems somewhat of a let down.

[Bann Duncan]

Maria Caliban wrote...

I sided with the templars are the end as a mage.

Without Bethany to protect, I find myself not nearly as motivated to side with the mages and am planning to do just that with my mage.

[Sjofn]

I would instead argue it would've been better if s/he couldn't be a mage.

That said, it would indeed have been better if they noticed the whole being a mage thing more in the game, but them's the breaks.

[Maria Caliban]

TJPags wrote...

To do that, I'd think they'd have had to alter the storyline. Make consequences attach to being a mage. Templars are after you, unless you make a deal with them. Turn in mages, or they hunt you . . .or your family, or friends.

Indeed. And that would have tied in nicely with the mage vs templars storyline.

They couldn't include that because only 1/3 of the character classes would be able to experience it.

[wowpwnslol]

Maria Caliban wrote...




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Would the story be better if Hawke could only be a mage?

No, I don't want to be a dress wearing pansy.

[Suron]

considering the story is at it's WORST when you're a mage because of idiotic hand-waving of him/her being such...

...no

[Punahedan]

Hard to say. I never got much of an understanding of how Hawke - any variant, really - relates to mages and the Fade outside of himself or his sister. If I understood more of what Hawke endures/experiences as a mage or a bystander to mages, I could better say if the change would've been a good one.

But I think Valentia's got a point - each class offers the potential for another aspect. Even if you side with the Templars as a mage, it's from your experience as a mage. Not as one affected by mages without being one.

And from a meta standpoint, it's good to have choice between mage, warrior, and rogue.

Now, would the part of me that ends up playing Mages as her primary playthroughs be happy? Ohhhh yes.

Modifié par Hawkeyed Cai Li, 07 avril 2011 - 02:14 .

[SirOccam]

I think these improvements they could make if Hawke were restricted to mage could still have theoretically been made with Hawke as a non-mage...just directed towards Bethany instead.

The family aspect is one of my favorite parts of the game; I'm glad they did what they did in ensuring that at least one person in your family was a mage. It seems to me that the foundation was there regardless.

Modifié par SirOccam, 07 avril 2011 - 02:14 .

[Cutlass Jack]

Everyone knows the story is sexier if you're a rogue. So the story would be substantially worse if you couldn't be one.

[Asdara]

I don't think so, because the different perspectives that come in from other jobs is pretty valuable to the game experience.

Maybe if we were talking about a novel, rather than a video game, I could see the merit of making Hawke a mage to increase impact, but with this being interactive that kind of limitation is just a limitation.

[Mnemnosyne]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Indeed. And that would have tied in nicely with the mage vs templars storyline.

They couldn't include that because only 1/3 of the character classes would be able to experience it.

There's no reason they couldn't have included that with Bethany as the motivating factor rather than Hawke, if you choose to play a non-mage.  She could easily have been an extra 'required' companion, like Shandra Jerro was in the relevant act of NWN2.

Ultimately, limiting Hawke to Mage-Only wouldn't have given them any story options that don't already exist simply by strongly exploiting the family connection.

Edit: Alternately, it wouldn't have hurt to make Hawke always some form of hybrid.  Give the main character a special talent tree with unique magical abilities - so that technically every Hawke is a mage, but warrior and rogue Hawkes just use that magic in a different way.  The trailers certainly gave some impression of Hawke being a mage/fighter, for instance.

Modifié par Koyasha, 07 avril 2011 - 03:11 .

[The Spirit of Dance]

i would not have bought the game if i could only be a mage.

[LobselVith8]

Maria Caliban wrote...

The Templar vs Mage conflict is central to the story of Dragon Age II. But if you play Hawke as an apostate, it's not only untouched but blatantly ignored by the people sworn to take in mages.

It occurred to me that if instead of having to be a human, Hawke could be a human or elven mage, they could have brought the mage/templar conflict to the fore much sooner and integrated Orsino and Meredith in the story during Act 2.

It would have been interesting if DA2 didn't abandon the options of being an elf or a dwarf, but I agree that the problem is in removing the apostate POV from Hawke when he (or she) is a mage. We're provided with many antagonists in the third Act who completely handwave Hawke opposing Meredith publicly and being an illegal mage, and we have no personal stake in saving the mages from execution unless Bethany is alive. Apostate Hawke is protected by plot armor from ever having to worry about the dangers of being an apostate, and the storyline suffers for it. I'm not certain that it would have been necessary to force the protagonist into the Kirkwall Gallows, but the writers should have incorporated the templar threat into the storyline instead of ignoring it entirely.

[PsychoBlonde]

I think they've kind of written themselves into a corner with the PC being able to be a mage, to be honest. It's like if they let you play a version of Baldur's Gate where 2/3 of the classes WEREN'T Bhaalspawn. I think there are several ways to handle the handwaving that results from the attempt to treat classes that are not socially equal as if they were socially equal:

1. Don't let the PC be a mage dammit. (not recommended--mages are my favorite class and everyone knows that I get to have everything I want, right?)
2. MAKE the PC be a mage. Dammit. (I wouldn't mind, myself, but the screaming from all quarters would probably get on my nerves.)
3. Have the mage have a completely different experience based on being a mage. (Unfair unless they basically institute class-based origins and have them majorly affect the game, which would mean essentially writing THREE COMPLETELY SEPARATE GAMES and gluing them together somehow. Needless to say, while this would be the coolest option, it is also the most resource-intensive and least likely to happen.
4. Cheese, i.e. everyone is miraculously unaware that Hawke is a mage EVEN WHEN HAWKE POINTS THIS OUT. While the least restrictive and resource-intensive option, this also can look REALLY STUPID in game and lead to all kinds of wonky immersion-breaking paradoxes.
5. The option I'd (tentatively) recommend even though it's a HUGE cop-out: make your mage PC be some kind of special 1 in 10,000 mage who is allergic to blood magic and makes demons break out in hives (or vice versa). Of course, over several games, this cop out would look increasingly goofy (are you telling me that I'm playing EVERY SINGLE Safety Mage in the WORLD?!) but it'd at least be internally consistent without making the writers tear out their hair.
6. Invent a time machine, go back in time, and smack whoever came up with the idea of making mages radically socially different than the other playable classes without subsequently coming up with a way to implement this regarding the PC without, again, MAKING THE WRITERS TEAR OUT THEIR HAIR.
7. You could also just make Warrior and Rogue PC social pariahs/outcasts for different reasons, and just write the entire game as everyone you ever talk to freaking out about you being a. Kossith (that'd be your social pariah warrior) b.) an elf or a dwarf everyone hates for some reason (your rogue) or c.) a mage. Actually, you could do this even more simply by letting any race play any appropriate class-except that humans *have* to be mages. EVERYBODY'S an underdog!

Hmm, actually I think I may switch my recommendation to #7 there. That'd be (in my mind) a great way to combine classes and races AND different origins without resulting in a crapload more work or a wildly inconsistent/restrictive game. You could even call it: "Dragon Age: Outcasts". And I suppose if you wanted to you could come up with a way that humans could be warriors/rogues and still fit in with the outcast theme.

Actually, I really like that idea.

Sorry for the long rambling post, I was making it up as I went along.

[Icy Magebane]

No. I enjoy being a Templar and I would find it too difficult to rationalize siding with them while playing as a mage. Sure, I would still feel that mages should be contained, but then that would mean Hawke should be in the Circle too. And why would a mage trust the Templars not to just kill them once things settled down? Obviously that isn't what happens, but that is the main reason my first character (mage) sided with the mages. It's a needless conflict that would occur on every playthrough...

That's just the story element... there's also the fact that mage isn't nearly as much fun as warrior, at least IMHO. Of course, if I didn't have the option in the first place, then I wouldn't see it that way, but still. Let's not remove class choices simply so that people can play as elves.

[Merced652]

No, and arguably it'd be better if he couldn't given the world is apparently oblivious to the fact that you are a mage when you play one. Being a mage, with the presumed bias that is inherent in being one, they would've had to actually write.. You know, a compelling story. One that gave a mage a real reason to side against mages rather than zombie mom and the fact that orsino is nutso. Of course you don't find out about that till after you've boned yourself, but whatever.

I think the entire story is contrived at best. I'd much rather have jumped right in to da3 where i deal with the consequences of templar vs mages rather than this mess in which nothing is accomplished by the player.

Now with all that said; had you only been able to be a mage, and changes obviously made.. I think that would've at least left room for the player to actually feel like they did something in this game rather than slog through 30 hours of sidequests. So instead of anders blowing up the chantry your mage does something to spark a war. The difficulty in being writing a story in which a diplomatic player or fundamentally good player would go about doing such a thing.

Modifié par Merced652, 07 avril 2011 - 05:29 .

[Apollo Starflare]

I often find myself wondering when this topic comes up whether the DA2 team braintstormed any ideas regarding it during development. I mean, obviously they would have discussed it, but I'm curious as to whether it was highlighted as something they would like to change or improve yet was found to be too difficult, resource intensive or time consuming to do so satisfactarily within the budget and release schedule.

Going along somewhat with Blonde's #7 I can see there being some possible ways to have Mages within Hawkes party (including Hawke themselves) fear using their magic in public, or at least near Templars, without necessarily weighting the game too unfairly towards Mage players. I could see it working in essence much like a particularly game affecting Origin story, with each class having a different unique twist to their gameplay in certain situations; as well as altering (to a greater degree) how they are perceived by various characters.

It would have essentially made your class choice in DA2 as important as your Origin choice in DAO (perhaps even more so). Something that I think would have fit in quite well with the games theme of developing your Champion on his or her rise to power (what sort of Champion were they etc.)

Regardless of the reason behind it not getting developed further, it's a shame. I love DA2, but found it hard to disagree with critics (such as Richard Cobbett) who pointed at this aspect of the game as weakening the whole somewhat.

[levi.porphyrogenitus]

If nothing else, the option for a warrior with the Templar specialization makes the story more interesting.