89 réponses à ce sujet

[TheBlackBaron]

thurmanator692 wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Miashi wrote...

Hai guys, I was alive when the challenger exploded.
Therefore that makes me a important person in the world.

That didn't lead to a World War. You suck.

I was alive when Archduke Ferdinand was assasinated, I am the most important person in the world!

Oh yeah!? I was alive when, um...

...

...

...

...Can't beat that, actually. Closest I could think of was something involving Bismarck. 

[AshenEndymion]

UnresoIved wrote...

AshenEndemion wrote...
But that's the even bigger beauty.  Hawke went to Kirkwall from Lothering (in Ferelden).  With no betrayal at Ostagar, there is no garauntee that Lothering is destroyed.  No garauntee that Hawke goes to Kirkwall.  Hell, there is no garauntee that Hawke's father returns to Ferelden if it is still under the grip of Orlesians....

Hawke's potential impact is a direct result of Loghain's actions... without Loghain's actions, does Hawke even have a potential impact?!?

If Ferelden had remained under Orlesian influence and Hawke's father did not move to Ferelden, where would they have lived? They most likely would have lived in Kirkwall because that's where Hawke's parents met. But I can't say what would have happened to Lothering if there was no betrayal. I can only guess that Lothering would have been destroyed eventually because though I don't remember a whole lot of it, it didn't have as strong of a defense as other places did such as Redcliffe. It could have been overrun eventually, but that's all hypothesizing. You make valid points and I see where you're going with Loghain and all. 

But that's enough debating for me tonight. I need to sleep...

Hawke's father went to Ferelden, from Kirkwall, to escape the Templars.  He could have returned while it was still under Orlais control... But I don't know.

As for Lothering, it may have been destroyed.  But the Battle of Ostagar would have been different without the betrayal (and without Cailen present, as well).  It could have been a win.  Or it may never have happened.  The battle of Ostagar is what creates the situation where the Warden rises and becomes a legend... (Edit Insert: Without the Warden,) Anders may not become a grey warden and merge with Justice to become an abomination...  the end of Kirkwall(edit: Act 3) may have resulted in a different way (what with the Chantry not getting destroyed).  Unless Anders would have done that without Justice's involvement (I doubt it).

You could erase Merric, and get the same results.... maybe.  Loghain is still a military genius (by the standards of the game), and was a part of the rebellion.  Ferelden may have been free, even if it never got it's king with the "right bloodline."  But without Loghain.... the whole tapestry of Ferelden seems to fall apart.

No... I contend that Loghain is the most important character of the Dragon Age....

Modifié par AshenEndemion, 07 avril 2011 - 03:28 .

[Miashi]

DLC 6.5: Hawke teaches Sandal to play Patty-cake while Varric uncovers a world-shattering relic.

[ThomasBlaine]

Captmorgan72 wrote...

Any Grey Warden could have defeated the Archdemon and ended the Blight. Only Hawke can stop this war that will destroy all of Thedas.

Total and utter disagreement. Who Hawke stands with at the end has practically no influence on what happens, and Anders sparks the war pretty much singlehandedly by nuking the chantry and enraging Meredith into invoking the Right of Annulment to make sure a diplomatic solution is impossible, thereby forcing the mages and templars of Kirkwall into a full-scale fight.

Afterwards, Meredith revals her madness and everyone strikes her down, probably sending a ripple of insecurity through the Templar ranks(templars are supposed to represent ultimate dicipline against magical corruption).

The unstable situation inspires at least one circle to try and break the status quo, and the rest follow track.
Noone fights for Ander's course, the mages fight because they've been locked up in prison their entire lives for hundreds of years just for existing and because the templars for the first time shows real vulnerability.

And how exactly are Hawke supposed to be able to stop the war? Sure, he knows earnestly how it started. So does Cullen, Varric, Cassandra, what difference does it make against a rebellion of a legion of walking nukes, two thirds demon-infested, fighting for their reedom for the fist time in centuries?
You think they'd listen to him if he told them to calm down? You think he could take them all on? Completely and utterly absurd on both accounts.

Btw, how would the war "destroy" Thedas?

Modifié par ThomasBlaine, 07 avril 2011 - 03:47 .

[Helen0rz]

Miashi wrote...

DLC 6.5: Hawke teaches Sandal to play Patty-cake while Varric uncovers a world-shattering relic.

DLC 7: Sandal uses his Patty-cake ability to convert all mages and templar to Sandalism

[Killer3000ad]

thurmanator692 wrote...

Well, hawke was the catalyst for it all. He/she killed both Orsino and Meredith, getting rid of any prospect of leadership in the city, plunging it into chaos when he/she left. Out of that chaos grew the Mage rebellions. I've said it before, people remember those who keep things going, not the one who started it.

Wrong! Anders was the culprit, who made it go past the point of no return with his little stunt. With or without Hawke, Anders would have blown up the Chantry regardless.

Additionally Hawke couldn't stop a mage vs templar war from erupting and fought and old woman with a severe case of lyriumn poisoning. Warden united the Ferelden races, crowned two rulers (or became one of them if shacked with ANora/Alistair) and killed the Archdemon. Take your pick.

Modifié par Killer3000ad, 07 avril 2011 - 03:40 .

[AshenEndymion]

thurmanator692 wrote...

Maric is the most important Character in Dragon Age. Fact o the matter is if you want to play it like that, you'll never find an answer, because everyone is here because of someone else

Quite true... but that's why I asked in the fifth post: 

Is the question of "importance" essentially: "If this person didn't exist, how drastically would the story change?"

Marric requires Loghain for his survival...  And Merric life, more or less, determines whether Ferelden is free.  Thus I say Loghain.  Because he affects affects Ostagar the most, and Ostagar affects whether the Warden is a person of note, and therefore whether Anders is a person of note(because Ameranthine may not be an Arling under the control of the Wardens), and therefore whether Hawke is a person of note.

If we're not playing the "what if" game, then the most important person in Dragon Age is the Warden-Commander (Either the orlesian or Origins import).  if only because he causes the Anders/Justice merger.

[Conduit0]

All of the reasoning to try and claim that Hawke isn't important could easily be applied to the Warden as well. There was nothing that uniquely qualified the warden to become the hero of the fifth blight, even the whole, "only a warden can kill an archdemon" bit was covered with Alistair. All that was really needed was someone with a bigger pair than Alistair to get the job done.

Hawke like many other heros who don't have some superpower to make them special, just happens to be someone badass enough to make things happen. What did Hawke make happen? The deeproads expedition for one, you can argue that it would happen without Hawke, but without him they never would have made it to the Primeval Thaig. Hawke's group were the only competent fighters in that entire expedition, without Hawke they never would have gotten past the Darkspawn and would have given up, and thats assuming they even had Ander's maps in the first place, which is unlikely, seeing as no one but Hawke would be crazy enough to help Anders free a mage.

Without a successful expedition, none of the events of act 3 would have happened, and yes that includes Anders blowing up the Chantry. Anders didn't blow up the chantry simply because he thought it was a nice way to spend an evening, he blew it up to escalate the situation beyond the point of no return. But without the lyrium idol to drive Meredith mad, there would have been no situation to escalate. Thats ofcourse not even taking into account the Arishok, not just anyone could have killed the Arishok and ended the Qunari's ocupation before it could even begin.

So yes Hawke is important to the story whether you want to accept it or not, and yes Hawke is the most important person in Thedas because with out him the mage war would never have started. A war that will alter Thedas forever, regardless of who wins.

[AshenEndymion]

In that deffinition, I say Loghain's ancestor Bojangles Mac Tir is the
most important character in Dragon Age, because if he hadn't existed,
neither would Loghain

Ah, but Bojangles Mac Tir didn't exist in the Dragon Age to begin with... so he's disqualified....

Modifié par AshenEndemion, 07 avril 2011 - 03:53 .

[AshenEndymion]

That's fair, but I'll contend Nature over Nurture.  And that Loghain's abilities and capabilities would not be affected by the lack of that specific parental figure. 

[TheBlackBaron]

thurmanator692 wrote...
And you can't say Anders would have done it anyway because you can't know that

Except you can, because we know he does, irregardless of what Hawke does. 

[FellowerOfOdin]

Captmorgan72 wrote...

Any Grey Warden could have defeated the Archdemon and ended the Blight. Only Hawke can stop this war that will destroy all of Thedas.

Yeah, like Riordan...oh.

[Madkipz]

Conduit0 wrote...

All of the reasoning to try and claim that Hawke isn't important could easily be applied to the Warden as well. There was nothing that uniquely qualified the warden to become the hero of the fifth blight, even the whole, "only a warden can kill an archdemon" bit was covered with Alistair. All that was really needed was someone with a bigger pair than Alistair to get the job done.

Hawke like many other heros who don't have some superpower to make them special, just happens to be someone badass enough to make things happen. What did Hawke make happen? The deeproads expedition for one, you can argue that it would happen without Hawke, but without him they never would have made it to the Primeval Thaig. Hawke's group were the only competent fighters in that entire expedition, without Hawke they never would have gotten past the Darkspawn and would have given up, and thats assuming they even had Ander's maps in the first place, which is unlikely, seeing as no one but Hawke would be crazy enough to help Anders free a mage.

Without a successful expedition, none of the events of act 3 would have happened, and yes that includes Anders blowing up the Chantry. Anders didn't blow up the chantry simply because he thought it was a nice way to spend an evening, he blew it up to escalate the situation beyond the point of no return. But without the lyrium idol to drive Meredith mad, there would have been no situation to escalate. Thats ofcourse not even taking into account the Arishok, not just anyone could have killed the Arishok and ended the Qunari's ocupation before it could even begin.

So yes Hawke is important to the story whether you want to accept it or not, and yes Hawke is the most important person in Thedas because with out him the mage war would never have started. A war that will alter Thedas forever, regardless of who wins.

As if Varrick could not have soloed the deep roads by himself? Hawke might be "important" but that is not thanks to his own accomplishments. Mages rebell all the time, the rite of annulment has happened 17 or was it 19 times? in 700 years?

Believe me when i say that the mage rebellion might not alter anything except make people more afraid of them.

[Psycoman2]

On the, would Anders have blown up the chantry if he never knew hawke issue....
Assuming that everything else happened as normal, lets just say that Bartrand had a deep roads map already somehow.

The first thing Anders would have to get through solo would be the templar trap with his friend. Id say his chances of surviving are good with the whole blue glowy justice rampage thing, but what happens after that?
Without hawks friendship, do you really think he would have stayed sane enough to come up with the plan to blow up the chantery?
Its also unlikely that he would have stayed clear of the templars and darktown gangs long enough.
There is an endless list of things to consider even with him knowing Hawke as the only different variable.

I am of the opinion that he would have self destructed within a few years of being in kirkwall without ever managing to kill more then a dozen templars or so.

[lobi]

Psycoman2 wrote...
I am of the opinion that he (Anders) would have self destructed within a few years of being in Kirkwall without ever managing to kill more then a dozen templars or so.

Sir pounce a' lot also joined with a fade spirit called ignominy. He turned up wearing some hip high boots, weilding a little sword and wore a dashing cap with a feather in it. This embarressed Anders so much he just gave up and moved to Haven.

[ThomasBlaine]

Conduit0 wrote...

Without a successful expedition, none of the events of act 3 would have happened, and yes that includes Anders blowing up the Chantry. Anders didn't blow up the chantry simply because he thought it was a nice way to spend an evening, he blew it up to escalate the situation beyond the point of no return. But without the lyrium idol to drive Meredith mad, there would have been no situation to escalate. Thats ofcourse not even taking into account the Arishok, not just anyone could have killed the Arishok and ended the Qunari's ocupation before it could even begin.

So yes Hawke is important to the story whether you want to accept it or not, and yes Hawke is the most important person in Thedas because with out him the mage war would never have started. A war that will alter Thedas forever, regardless of who wins.

First off, the Warden is one of the Grey, thus inherently essential to the safety of Thedas' civilians, and the Darkwpawn Chronicles shows exactly what would happen had s/he not been there. Remove the warden from Origins, and Ferelden is most certainly doomed. Hawke, on the other hand, runs errands for the big players of Kirkwall for personal gain, and  for no apparent reason ends up with the "credit" for Ander's actions.
The Quanari conflict had no major influence on Thedas as a whole, and yes, both Meredith and Orsino were powerful enough to kill the Arishok in single combat.
The templar/mage situation is strained because Kirkwall is filled to the brim with apostates and rebellious mages, most of which are either blood-mages or demon-infested. The only thing the idol causes is Meredith's breakdown after the fight with Orsino.
Sure, he's the catalyst of the story of DA2, and definetly important, but by no means the most essential person in Thedas' history.
Hawke. does. not. spark. the. war. and. neither. can. he. stop. it. 

Modifié par ThomasBlaine, 07 avril 2011 - 08:56 .

[AlexXIV]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Have you noticed that many times when you push a button in the game, nothing awesome happens?

Damn it, now that you say it ... I want my money back!

[Conduit0]

ThomasBlaine wrote...

Conduit0 wrote...

Without a successful expedition, none of the events of act 3 would have happened, and yes that includes Anders blowing up the Chantry. Anders didn't blow up the chantry simply because he thought it was a nice way to spend an evening, he blew it up to escalate the situation beyond the point of no return. But without the lyrium idol to drive Meredith mad, there would have been no situation to escalate. Thats ofcourse not even taking into account the Arishok, not just anyone could have killed the Arishok and ended the Qunari's ocupation before it could even begin.

So yes Hawke is important to the story whether you want to accept it or not, and yes Hawke is the most important person in Thedas because with out him the mage war would never have started. A war that will alter Thedas forever, regardless of who wins.

First off, the Warden is one of the Grey, thus inherently essential to the safety of Thedas' civilians, and the Darkwpawn Chronicles shows exactly what would happen had s/he not been there. Remove the warden from Origins, and Ferelden is most certainly doomed. Hawke, on the other hand, runs errands for the big players of Kirkwall for personal gain, and  for no apparent reason ends up with the "credit" for Ander's actions.
The Quanari conflict had no major influence on Thedas as a whole, and yes, both Meredith and Orsino were powerful enough to kill the Arishok in single combat.
The templar/mage situation is strained because Kirkwall is filled to the brim with apostates and rebellious mages, most of which are either blood-mages or demon-infested. The only thing the idol causes is Meredith's breakdown after the fight with Orsino.
Sure, he's the catalyst of the story of DA2, and definetly important, but by no means the most essential person in Thedas' history.
Hawke. does. not. spark. the. war. and. neither. can. he. stop. it. 

You say Hawke is the catalyst to the story, but then claim he doesn't spark the war? You're contradicting your self.

[ThomasBlaine]

Conduit0 wrote...

You say Hawke is the catalyst to the story, but then claim he doesn't spark the war? You're contradicting your self.

Hawke is the catalyst of the story of the game, the plot, not the political conflicts of Thedas, as you claim.
He saves nummerous lives and/or condemns just as many throughout the game, and has a huge influence on his companions' personal development amongst others. No question that he has some importance to The Wounded Coast, quite a lot to Kirkwall, but practically none for Thedas as a continent.

Modifié par ThomasBlaine, 07 avril 2011 - 09:26 .