30 réponses à ce sujet

[wowpwnslol]

I have to ask: Is it really fun to make bosses have a huge healthbar, but really weak AI? Does it lead to better gameplay? And it's not just ARW. Every boss fight can be beaten by running, kiting and exploiting line of sight. When will Bioware realize that having bosses with a million HP, but pathetically predicatable tactics doesn't make the game harder? I'd rather have bosses with low HP, but great AI, which forces you to THINK, not run around the pillars for 30 minutes.

Dragon Age 2 nightmare mode is a disappointment. Extra damage and hitpoints does not make the game more challenging. I liked nightmare Origins way more.. Bosses had low HP, but had access to some of the most annoying spells imaginable. Crushing prison, misdirection hex, curse of mortality, etc. It was great to know that one wrong move will cost you a reload and you didn't have to exploit weak AI to beat these encounters.

[SuicidalBaby]

amen brother, preach on

[brazen_nl]

So true. With DA2, the fun is only in CCCs. The endless waves are ridiculous and the story isn't as compelling, either. Sad, but true for me.

[Loc'n'lol]

wowpwnslol wrote...

I have to ask: Is it really fun to make bosses have a huge healthbar, but really weak AI?

You mean, as opposed to having a regular enemy with a bigger health bar and a few abilities that you can do absolutely nothing about but hope they don't randomly trigger at the worst possible moment ?

[Apathy1989]

Your preaching to the choir.


I would like someone to mod DA2 so AI have similar stats to players, and same skills. Access to more skills as difficulty goes up like origins would also be awesome. Not sure how this would be done though, or the scale of changes required.

[Crocodiles]

I don't know about you guys, but I hate fighting the rock wraith and High dragon. I just lower it down to casual, so the fight ends quickly. It's just tedious and no fun.

[Teknor]

I've never seen a strong AI'd encounter during my entire gaming history. What you want is beyond the capability of game programming. You want to be challenged, play multiplayer games.

Modifié par Teknor, 07 avril 2011 - 04:47 .

[SuicidalBaby]

There are basic levels of A I one should expect.  Specificly if its a sequal.

Origins mages didn't sit there in a bubble while their allies died around them.

Modifié par SuicidialBaby, 07 avril 2011 - 05:02 .

[nicodeemus327]

SuicidialBaby wrote...

There are basic levels of A I one should expect.  Specificly if its a sequal.

Origins mages didn't sit there in a bubble while their allies died around them.

Instead they died within the first few seconds of combat (assuming you mean enemy mages). That's so much better

At least with the bubble, if I forget to watch the mage, they could wreak havoc on my party instead of being a non issuse seconds into the fight.

Modifié par nicodeemus327, 07 avril 2011 - 05:18 .

[casedawgz]

nicodeemus327 wrote...

SuicidialBaby wrote...

There are basic levels of A I one should expect.  Specificly if its a sequal.

Origins mages didn't sit there in a bubble while their allies died around them.

Instead they died within the first few seconds of combat (assuming you mean enemy mages). That's so much better

At least with the bubble, if I forget to watch the mage, they could wreak havoc on my party instead of being a non issuse seconds into the fight.

This. The DA2 combat system isn't perfect, but DA:O was straight up broken. Mana Clash would pretty much clear an encounter of all enemy casters instantaneously, and then they were a non issue. Not good design there.

[Lumikki]

Why would you even solo so booring enemies? It gonna take really long time, because it does that even with full team.

[IN1]

Teknor wrote...

I've never seen a strong AI'd encounter during my entire gaming history. What you want is beyond the capability of game programming. You want to be challenged, play multiplayer games.

Actually, I have seen a strong AI once, in Heroes of Might and Magic I. But that's an exception to the general rule and a product of chess-like approach to AI design (it is strong much the same way the good chess programs are strong).

[IN1]

Extra damage and hitpoints does not make the game more challenging.

Well, of course they do. To deny it = to be insincere.

I liked nightmare Origins way more.. Bosses had low HP, but had access to some of the most annoying spells imaginable. Crushing prison, misdirection hex, curse of mortality, etc. It was great to know that one wrong move will cost you a reload and you didn't have to exploit weak AI to beat these encounters.

A ridiculous claim. The fact is, DAO NM was a total pushover. You could solo it with any class half-asleep, provided you got acquainted with basic game mechanics and had a slight inclination to do some meta-gaming. There were, like, three challenging encounters there: pre-Fort Drakon Ser Cauthrien et al.; Branka & her golems; Gaxxxkang. Maybe a couple more mildly challenging ones, if done too early (mercenaries at Orzammar gate; Blood Mage hideout in Denerim; Brecilian Forest Revenants). There was no AI to speak of, and nothing to like there. Unless you prefer to stomp anything in your path in a matter of seconds without putting any thought into it, that is. 

I've noticed some people love to put DAO -- that was terrible beyond words in all things mechanics-related -- on a pedestal now (though I'm quite sure the same crowd was ****ing about how infinitely inferior it is compared to NWN2 a year ago). How can one's retrospective vision be so monstrously distorted and inadequate, I cannot understand.

Modifié par IN1, 07 avril 2011 - 07:53 .

[Running_Blind]

I just assumed the bubble mages had some bug in their AI, that they were meant to bubble up most of the time so that you concentrate on something else, then throw out an AoE spell when your attention is diverted.

There's a loading screen tip that says something like "Some enemy mages have impenetrable defenses! Wait for their defenses to drop and then attack!", it kind of implied they were some kind of threat that you had to take out when the opportunity came up.

Or maybe they were designed to throw out spells while being invincible, at the last minute of development they decided it was ridiculous and just sniped their AI.

[BanditGR]

wowpwnslol wrote...

I have to ask: Is it really fun to make bosses have a huge healthbar, but really weak AI? Does it lead to better gameplay? And it's not just ARW. Every boss fight can be beaten by running, kiting and exploiting line of sight. When will Bioware realize that having bosses with a million HP, but pathetically predicatable tactics doesn't make the game harder? I'd rather have bosses with low HP, but great AI, which forces you to THINK, not run around the pillars for 30 minutes.

Dragon Age 2 nightmare mode is a disappointment. Extra damage and hitpoints does not make the game more challenging. I liked nightmare Origins way more.. Bosses had low HP, but had access to some of the most annoying spells imaginable. Crushing prison, misdirection hex, curse of mortality, etc. It was great to know that one wrong move will cost you a reload and you didn't have to exploit weak AI to beat these encounters.

Although, most of what you say has already been mentioned, I personally couldn't agree more. For the record, no, encounters in Origins were far from "broken", it's just that Bioware never intended to fix OP abilities such as Mana Clash, CoC, Blood Wound, Momentum etc. On top of this they added OP abilities in Awakenings (accuracy anyone ?). This eventually made encounters way easier then they should have been. In addition, I'm not really sure if I understand the complaint regarding the unpredictability of mob talent/spell usage and what you can do about it. Isn't this what we all want at the end of the day, a complex AI that won't execute the exact same loop that makes encounters predictable and uninteresting ? Ironically, older Bioware games (and yes I'm gonna do the BG cliche here) were much better in terms of enemy AI, without necessarily resorting to inflated health bars and small armies, granted it was a different system (D&D) with its own weaknesses, so yes it was very far from perfect. Still, how we went from a flawed, semi tactical combat system to the chaotic combat nature of DA2, is really beyond me. All in all, artificially dragging out endgame, end chapter boss encounters (or anywhere in between even), for the sake of extending the duration of the game, isn't such a good practice. It's not challenging or rewarding (after then first 20 battles it gets a little old) or interesting and certainly not tactical.

[Firky]

IN1 wrote...
The fact is, DAO NM was a total pushover.

I agree with that. (And the rest of what you said, and about HOMM AI - great example.)

I dunno about the million HP/power-chugging-potion commanders. I didn't like them to start with, but I now see them as part of the overall battle. Do you take them out first, to stop them doing the blue, whirly health thing or because there is an assassin coming, but get pummelled by the other critters/normals in the meantime? Or ignore them and leave them until last? 

My criticism beyond millionHP/5 potions would be that (if you save the commander until last) it's too easy to manually dodge away from his attacks - most commanders seem to have a really slow swing, but I'm only in act 1 - with whoever he is chasing and just let everyone else take him down.

[IN1]

Ironically, older Bioware games (and yes I'm gonna do the BG cliche here) were much better in terms of enemy AI, without necessarily resorting to inflated health bars and small armies, granted it was a different system (D&D) with its own weaknesses, so yes it was very far from perfect.

A mere attempt to compare DAO/DA2 'system' to D&D (even to a badly implemented D&D, like in BG/IWD series) is absolutely hilarious.

[Firky]

As someone pointed out to me recently, Baldur's Gate had waves of enemies. It was when an enemy feared one of your companions, who ran away and triggered 3 other battles down the corridor.

[BanditGR]

IN1 wrote...

Ironically, older Bioware games (and yes I'm gonna do the BG cliche here) were much better in terms of enemy AI, without necessarily resorting to inflated health bars and small armies, granted it was a different system (D&D) with its own weaknesses, so yes it was very far from perfect.

A mere attempt to compare DAO/DA2 'system' to D&D (even to a badly implemented D&D, like in BG/IWD series) is absolutely hilarious.

Perhaps my intention was misunderstood. You cannot directly compare it no, because as I mentioned it was a system build on different principles, yet you have to admit that it did not favor or overuse waves upon waves of opponents with Superman's hit points, at least in the same manner that DA2 attempts to appear challenging.  I guess it kinda depends on the mechanics that each person believes add to the challenge rating of combat in an RPG. Personally, I consider the DA2 approach, the easy way out and not because of the wave mechanic in itself (which isn't bad), but the way it is implemented and presented in almost every situation.

[B3taMaxxx]

Oh contraire OP, the first time you fight the Rock Wraith on Nightmare you do have to think, but like all bosses in all games (video games) there's a pattern buried in the 1s and 0s.

[wowpwnslol]

B3taMaxxx wrote...

Oh contraire OP, the first time you fight the Rock Wraith on Nightmare you do have to think, but like all bosses in all games (video games) there's a pattern buried in the 1s and 0s.

You only have to think after wiping once. Then you realize how brutally effective line of sight is and hug pillars for 30 minutes until you win. Ancient rock wraith had really bad pathing.

[TcheQ]

Teknor wrote...

I've never seen a strong AI'd encounter during my entire gaming history. What you want is beyond the capability of game programming. You want to be challenged, play multiplayer games.

Farcry 2, HL2ep2 and Dark Messiah had their moments, though sometimes games can overpower the player that we don't notice if the AI is actually doing well or not.   It's one of the reasons I play every game on hardest difficulty, first playthrough, and never anything else

STALKER (Soc,cs,cop) on Master is probably one of the better games.

THere are probably more that i can't think of now.  It's very easy to forget the good moments :/

[tonnactus]

Is this a joke?? In Origins,bosses have insane healthbars too. How are marjolaine,kolgrim or jarvia different then any boss in this game?

Modifié par tonnactus, 08 avril 2011 - 01:20 .

[Lumikki]

Why people allways have to brag here, maybe not even knowing it?

Now don't get me wrong, I agree with OP options, that huge health doens't make it fun.

How ever, I disagree way headline of subject is used. How hard it is to make subject.

"Does bosses huge health really make game more fun?" Compared "So after soloing Ancient Rock Wraith on nightmare".

Modifié par Lumikki, 08 avril 2011 - 01:51 .