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[Oneiropolos]

Ealos wrote...

The Dumars' emblem is a falcon, I think, though this wouldn't explain all the statues. I doubt the fact that Morrigan has black feathers on has anything to do with anything, tbh, it'd look silly if she wore flamingo skin.

Honestly, the only thing it may have to do with anything is the artist behind her acknowleding the roots of her name as being a shapeshifting goddess that took the form of a raven. And swooped. I just was, in fact, pointing out that ravens DID have a connection to Morrigan in mythology as well. 

As far as Dumar's emblem, it is indeed a falcon, which are the birds on his crown. So we have a falcon, a HAWKe, and raven feathers all over. Plus the Antivan crows if Zev's still alive for your playthrough. A city for the birds indeed. Though it doesn't explain the freakish birdman Tevinter god statues that are in everry noble's home.. including yours... to say that it's just because of Dumar.

[Darker_than_black]

Oneiropolos wrote...

Ealos wrote...

The Dumars' emblem is a falcon, I think, though this wouldn't explain all the statues. I doubt the fact that Morrigan has black feathers on has anything to do with anything, tbh, it'd look silly if she wore flamingo skin.

Honestly, the only thing it may have to do with anything is the artist behind her acknowleding the roots of her name as being a shapeshifting goddess that took the form of a raven. And swooped. I just was, in fact, pointing out that ravens DID have a connection to Morrigan in mythology as well. 

As far as Dumar's emblem, it is indeed a falcon, which are the birds on his crown. So we have a falcon, a HAWKe, and raven feathers all over. Plus the Antivan crows if Zev's still alive for your playthrough. A city for the birds indeed. Though it doesn't explain the freakish birdman Tevinter god statues that are in everry noble's home.. including yours... to say that it's just because of Dumar.

Yeah, all these birds are a mystery indeed. When I read all your theories and speculations (which were really interesting I must say) I couldn't help but remember the black bird (a raven perhaps, not sure) that for some reason gets a few seconds of closed up camera view in the cinematic where the ship with the Hawke family onboard enters Kirkwall.

Anyway I had alot of fun reading and pondering over the things you wrote here. Finding connections between fantasy lore and real life mythologies and religions, as well as finding signs and coincidents that may hint on future plots and events in coming DA games/dlc...well it just gets me all tingly for some reason.

Just as a last thing. Crows are, just like ravens, seen as messengers/harbingers of death in many cultures (fitting for an assassins guild no doubt) and in the mythology litterature I read it says that "deities such as Badb and Morrigan were able to metamorphose into crows or ravens, in which form they were said to hover the battlefield as harbingers of death to those fighting below" So it might be wise not to read to much into ravens specificly.

Still, the birds have something sinister going on it seems. Maybe we should call Shale up to Kirkwall just in case?

Modifié par Darker_than_black, 07 avril 2011 - 09:46 .

[barrelofmonkeyzz]

Adding another Odin/god of magic connection: there's the tarot description of the Hanged Man

[Oneiropolos]

barrelofmonkeyzz wrote...

Adding another Odin/god of magic connection: there's the tarot description of the Hanged Man

I can't help but notice in that wikipedia entry the usage of the word "Gallows" being what the hanged man is hanging from (which uhm, would be, naturally) and the "seeming matyr" which could be how one either see Grand Cleric Elthina or what Anders tried to be. His writer even said he wanted to be a matyr for his cause. This line in particular made me raise an eyebrow, "He who can understand that the story of his higher nature is imbedded [sic] in this symbolism will receive intimations concerning a great awakening that is possible, and will know that after the sacred Mystery of Death there is a glorious Mystery of Resurrection"  And of course, the link to Odin gaining the answers and wisdom he sought... quite a fascinating link! I can't see the tavern being called "The Hanged Man" being coincidence anymore either.

Edit so I don't double post: I'm being too much of a dork with all these theories, I know! *looks sheepish*  It's something I've never seen anyone bring up and so many things seem to be falling into weird little pieces of a puzzle I have NO IDEA of. 

Modifié par Oneiropolos, 07 avril 2011 - 10:39 .

[sonoko]

Speaking of birds: Anders' feathered outfit comes to mind... And his black coat definitely has raven feathers...

[Satyricon331]

I just want to pop in to say you guys rock.  I was never good at interpreting literary symbolism and I love these types of threads.

[Knightly_BW]

Wow! You guys really build a great thread. I never looked so deep into things. I am more like "Wheee! Look how I phew phew bad guys with my bow!" during playing.

Thanks for enlightenment and effort you put in this thread everyone. It is a very good reading.

[Blacklash93]

Maria Caliban wrote...

And there are also the bird statues in the primordial thaig.

It's hard to see why the ancient dwarves would revere birds. They certainly don't live anywhere near them.

Anyway, I'm pretty sure the ancient Kirkwall symbol is a dragon. It's blood red and resembles Flemeth on the box art, for one. Then it was changed into a hawk over time.

Modifié par Blacklash93, 07 avril 2011 - 10:18 .

[Oneiropolos]

The symbol for Kirkwall IS a dragon. Dumar's personal symbol is the falcon.

The actual website for ordering the Kirkwall symbol pendant states:
This stylized knot work representation of a dragon evolved from a symbol of rebellion etched into countless walls during the time when Kirkwall was a center for the Tevinter slave trade. It was an image that catalyzed the slaves who overthrew the ruling magisters, and while the symbol has changed, its meaning has not: Kirkwall is a city unto itself, beholden to noone.

Now.. the question is.. it says it has EVOLVED from a symbol etched onto countless walls? Is that the simplified version of it that we see painted in several places over the game? The pendant itself is pretty intricate. You can see it here: http://www.epicweapo...ts-kirkwall.php

It seems like the simplistic version (off the top of my head, I seem to actually recall it being on the wall sort of just drawn there in the Viscount's office for one example) is much more clearly a stylized dragon, while the pendant and image that became "Kirkwall's symbol" has added lines that seem to mirror the concept of the maze like streets. Just an idea. Though here's a question for you, why would Tevinter slaves be using a dragon as their symbol of rebellion to start with? They apparently were, and we know the Tevinter Imperium worshipped dragons, but you would think the slaves would pick a symbol that went against the concept of what their masters worshipped.

Edit: Also? If those are bird statues, doesn't that just make it actually MORE creepy that they're there? Don't forget that there's functional golems WAY before dwarf souls were supposedly being put into them. Plus there's the rock wraiths and somehow, a demon down there. I'm a bit fuzzy on that demon part. I mean...theoretically, a human being/elf.. dwarf with magic that as far as we know doesn't actually exist.. has to be there to summon a demon, don't they? How did it manage to possess one of the Profane or Rock Wraiths as it seemed to? Are they magic... or is the area that thin with the veil that a demon could come over even entirely uninvited? 

Modifié par Oneiropolos, 07 avril 2011 - 12:17 .

[Darker_than_black]

Oneiropolos wrote...

The symbol for Kirkwall IS a dragon. Dumar's personal symbol is the falcon.

The actual website for ordering the Kirkwall symbol pendant states:
This stylized knot work representation of a dragon evolved from a symbol of rebellion etched into countless walls during the time when Kirkwall was a center for the Tevinter slave trade. It was an image that catalyzed the slaves who overthrew the ruling magisters, and while the symbol has changed, its meaning has not: Kirkwall is a city unto itself, beholden to noone.

Now.. the question is.. it says it has EVOLVED from a symbol etched onto countless walls? Is that the simplified version of it that we see painted in several places over the game? The pendant itself is pretty intricate. You can see it here: http://www.epicweapo...ts-kirkwall.php

It seems like the simplistic version (off the top of my head, I seem to actually recall it being on the wall sort of just drawn there in the Viscount's office for one example) is much more clearly a stylized dragon, while the pendant and image that became "Kirkwall's symbol" has added lines that seem to mirror the concept of the maze like streets. Just an idea. Though here's a question for you, why would Tevinter slaves be using a dragon as their symbol of rebellion to start with? They apparently were, and we know the Tevinter Imperium worshipped dragons, but you would think the slaves would pick a symbol that went against the concept of what their masters worshipped.

Edit: Also? If those are bird statues, doesn't that just make it actually MORE creepy that they're there? Don't forget that there's functional golems WAY before dwarf souls were supposedly being put into them. Plus there's the rock wraiths and somehow, a demon down there. I'm a bit fuzzy on that demon part. I mean...theoretically, a human being/elf.. dwarf with magic that as far as we know doesn't actually exist.. has to be there to summon a demon, don't they? How did it manage to possess one of the Profane or Rock Wraiths as it seemed to? Are they magic... or is the area that thin with the veil that a demon could come over even entirely uninvited? 

I have really no idea why slaves would use a dragon as a symbol for rebellion, but why not? Dragons are strong, fierce, independent creatures. Fitting in a way, but as I said I have no idea.

As for the thaig, who says it was even built by dwarves in the first place? Bartrand claims that nothing in that thaig makes sense (no paragon statues etc.) and that it must predate the first blight. Who knows what people might have constructed it.

Demons/spirits can enter the mortal realm on their own if the veil is thin enough, which I suspect it was in that thaig (if it even is a "thaig"). You encounter shades for instance, and they haven't possessed anyone or anything, they are just there.

Modifié par Darker_than_black, 07 avril 2011 - 12:46 .

[Beerfish]

If you look up in the sky in Hightown there is often if not always birds circling way up high. (I think it is high town, maybe it is the gallows instead?)

[PantheraOnca]

Look where the thick vein of red lyrium leads to on the object in the foreground. That's the top beak, up and to the right is the eye, below both of them is the bottom beak.

The head is a bit large, but you might be able to write that off as plumage or that its a bird-like creature.

You could also say that the foremost part of that object are the wings about to be unfurled, or in other words gathered up into a "walking" or non-flying position.

[Oneiropolos]

Yep. It's a highly stylistic bird, but that fits with the bird-men statues we see in the homes of nobles too. They're not just "Oh, look, birds." It's hard to say whether the images in the "Thaig" are birds, but they seem oddly systematically designed not to be -something-.

[Sabotin]

To me they look like eagles or something. They could be interpreted as a symbol of authority/power (bird of prey) and elevation above commoners/non mages (they look for prey from high altitude).

The mage lord statues also have wings on their helmets I think. Could also mean freedom as per the US emblem, but as something the slaves will never get. I think it's in some codex entry that all those statues etc in the gallows were designed to break the slaves' spirit. Also something about bodies being hung from [can't remember the word], it would look like the birds have prey in their beaks.

And somehow it also fits with the Icarus legend. You know, flying too high and melting the wings; walking into the Maker's city and being cast down.

Modifié par Sabotin, 07 avril 2011 - 08:02 .

[Ealos]

Though eagles were also reputed to be the only creatures able to look into the sun, aspiring to purity (hence their use in church lecterns). So could be a symbol meaningful to the Templars (with their sun image) rather than folly of mages. I just don't think there is enough info to speculate (or even if writers have decided to give them meaning at all).