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The Oldest And Most Advanced Civilization of Thedas... The Dwarves?


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#1
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I've always assumed that the Elves are the oldest civilization in Thedas. The invention of a calender is a sign of a civilization taking off, and the Elven Calendar (and recorded history) began with the founding of Arlathan 8,440 years ago. Dwarves came into contact with Elves ~5,500 years ago and Humans arrived ~4,000 years ago. So overall, the history of civilizations in Thedas is comparable to that of our Earth in terms of length, with the possible exception of the Elves.

However, the Primeval Thaig is said to be very old, constructed before the First Blight (happened 1,300 years ago). But exactly how old? The wiki (http://dragonage.wik.../Primeval_Thaig) says it's "over ten thousand years" old. That is, > 2,500 years before the foundation of Arlathan. Can anybody confirm this?

Because if this is true, then we can draw some very interesting conclusions.

Before the First Blight, the Dwarves had an empire covering all the underground of Thedas. In order to construct something like the Primeval Thaig, the Dwarven cilivization 10,000 years ago has to be remarkably advanced already, at least comparable to the Elves of Elvhenan or the Tevinters who founded Kirkwall. And presumably they carved out those cavernous halls without the use of Magic. A powerful civilization indeed.

Yet they waited for the next 4,500 years, during which the Elves may have arrived at Thedas, built an empire covering all of Thedas, developed highly advanced culture and Magic, constructed the huge city of Arlathan, and about 3,000 years after Arlathan was founded, the Dwarves finally decided to open their doors and say hello. Considering that the Elven civilization covered all of the surface of Thedas during this time, it would mean that the Dwarves who constructed the Primeval Thaig and their direct heirs had no contact with other surface civilization (there was none other than the Elves). In fact, it is safe to assume that they had no contact with the surface *at all*.

This is a remarkable lack of interest on the part of a powerful civilization towards vast amounts of territories and resources available to them. It requires some drastic explanations, including:

(1) Dwarves indeed originated from "The Stone", i.e. the underground is their native land, and they weren't even aware that the surface existed until the noise of stomping Elvish feet disturbed them enough;

(2) They were aware that the surface existed, but even the Elves of Elvhenan appear too primitive and uninteresting to them at first, so that they didn't bother contacting them (as sort of a Prime Directive);

(3) They were aware that the surface existed, but they have access to much more important resources (Lyrium) under ground that they'd rather keep it a secret for fear the Elves might learn of its powers. After the Elves discovered the use of Lyrium in Magic, however, it was no longer a secret, and the Dwarves realized that it was a valuable trade resource, and so opened their gates with smiling faces.

In any case, "Not opening my gates for 4,500 years despite Elves up there building an empire of their own" reveals something shocking about the Dwarves. Their civilization may have reached back far more than 10,000 years, and the peak of its glory may dim even that of Arlathan or Minrathous in their hay days.

This, of course, have vital relevance to DA2's plot because it revolves around an idol from that time.

Modifié par iOnlySignIn, 07 avril 2011 - 08:05 .


#2
Amagoi

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We really have no frame of refrence of how long any of the civilizations have been around. Not just including the Primeval Dwarves or Arlathan, it's also worth noting that the humans and Qunari aren't native to the continent of Thedas. It's possible they've been around and had (and still do) civilizations elsewhere on the planet.

#3
Satyricon331

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Assuming the 10,000 year date is correct (you're right - where does the wiki get that number?), another explanation would be that perhaps the primeval dwarven civilization fell completely and rendered the dwarves underground nomads/pre-civilizational (that would explain why there are no dwarven records). They may have stayed completely underground in that case, or they could have had individual groups wind up on the surface (temporarily or not) but not enough to make any impact on Elven expansion. We don't know what happened with that red-lyrium idol or what state it left the dwarves population or the underground itself for that matter.

#4
kedcoleman

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Your conclusions are based on assumptions we don't know to be fact. It's possible that the Primeval Thaig was one of the original dwarven dwellings. Any Deep Roads connections could, conceivably been added centuries, or even millenia, after pre-civilized, idol-worshipping dwarves migrated to this particular cavern.
Which is not to discount your ideas at all. They are interesting, and potentially world-shaking thoughts.

#5
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Amagoi wrote...

We really have no frame of refrence of how long any of the civilizations have been around. Not just including the Primeval Dwarves or Arlathan, it's also worth noting that the humans and Qunari aren't native to the continent of Thedas. It's possible they've been around and had (and still do) civilizations elsewhere on the planet.

True, but who is the first in Thedas?

And if there are civilizations elsewhere than Thedas, then they weren't significantly more advanced than civilizations of Thedas, since Thedas civilizations (the Qunari & Tevinters most notably) are not that far away from developing cross-ocean voyage. They construct huge ships, have explosives that can demolish a whole city made of stone, and Magic. Any non-Thedas civilization that is more advanced would have arrived by ships already, like the Qunari.

Modifié par iOnlySignIn, 07 avril 2011 - 04:02 .


#6
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Satyricon331 wrote...

Assuming the 10,000 year date is correct (you're right - where does the wiki get that number?), another explanation would be that perhaps the primeval dwarven civilization fell completely and rendered the dwarves underground nomads/pre-civilizational (that would explain why there are no dwarven records). They may have stayed completely underground in that case, or they could have had individual groups wind up on the surface (temporarily or not) but not enough to make any impact on Elven expansion. We don't know what happened with that red-lyrium idol or what state it left the dwarves population or the underground itself for that matter.

Are you suggesting that the Dwarven civilization suffered a collapse *before* the First Blight? Perhaps many their people were turned into Profanes in some horrible accident? And then they slowly recovered and rebuilt their Thedas-wide empire which existed at the time of the First Blight? Glorious, glorious people indeed!

Modifié par iOnlySignIn, 07 avril 2011 - 04:15 .


#7
Maria Caliban

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iOnlySignIn wrote...

... "over ten thousand years" old.


And they don't give a reference.

Edit: And the person who wrote that part also calls it 'the first thiag,' 'filled with things made by magic,' and 'untouched by darkspawn.'

All speculation.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 07 avril 2011 - 04:05 .


#8
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^ I would hazard a guess that the Primeval Thaig is likely youger than Arlathan, but older than Human settlement in Thedas. Around 5,000 to 7,000 years old as a reasonable guess.

Modifié par iOnlySignIn, 07 avril 2011 - 04:05 .


#9
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Not sure if it can be presumed that the primeval dwarves didn't have any sort of magic, considering the idol... and possibly those vague comments by Sandal.

#10
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Maria Caliban wrote...

Edit: And the person who wrote that part also calls it 'the first thiag,' 'filled with things made by magic,' and 'untouched by darkspawn.'

All speculation.

Well, you did recover a few powerful Spirit based Staves (Stone's Breath, Valdasine) from them, which their respective codex noted prominantly that Dwarves were not supposed to be able to use Magic.

Edit: Ninja'd.

And judging from the amount of treasures you recover after beating the ARW, I'd say 'untouched by darkspawn' is a very reasonable guess. Almost a fact, even, since I don't think any amount of Darkspawn can beat the ARW (well, they actually didn't, for the past 1,300 years) except perhaps if an Archedemon arrives personally. Which is an interesting thought - ARW vs. Archedemon - who will win? I'd say ARW would win in a cave setting and Archedemon in any open-air setting because it can fly.

Modifié par iOnlySignIn, 07 avril 2011 - 04:10 .


#11
Amagoi

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A gigantic civilization-shattering catastrophe makes sense to me. You don't just up and forget an entire city so completely. Especially a possible proto-civilization for the Dwarves. That could also have something to do with how long it took them to come into contact with the Elven people on the surface.

For something to completely shake the society of Dwarves enough that they forget about their original culture, it would naturally take a long time to recover and build a new civilization afterwards.

Though they could always have just 'forgot' and decided that ancestor worship was a better idea than worshiping idols and dancing underneath red lyrium.

#12
Satyricon331

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iOnlySignIn wrote...
Are you suggesting that the Dwarven civilization suffered a collapse *before* the First Blight? Perhaps many their people were turned into Profanes in some horrible accident? And then they slowly recovered and rebuilt their Thedas-wide empire which existed at the time of the First Blight? Glorious, glorious people indeed!


I'm just suggesting the possibility... really I'm saying we just don't have enough info =]

Amagoi wrote...
Though they could always have just 'forgot' and decided that ancestor worship was a better idea than worshiping idols and dancing underneath red lyrium.


Perhaps their ancestor worship is the outgrowth of having lost their civilization and fallen back to "barbarity" (for lack of a better word).  They've forgotten what they've lost, but they remember their predecessors were powerful, type of thing.

Modifié par Satyricon331, 07 avril 2011 - 04:22 .


#13
Maria Caliban

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Making a staves is a form of enchantment. We learn that in DA:O as the Tranquils make them.

Yes, the tomb is untouched by darkspawn because of the ancient rock wrath, but we fight darkspawn right outside of the thaig. There's no reason to believe they've never been inside of it.

#14
The Angry One

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So here's a thought, the humanoid figures on the idol don't really look like dwarves. Their torsos look far too tall and thin.
Any theories on that?

#15
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Amagoi wrote...

A gigantic civilization-shattering catastrophe makes sense to me. You don't just up and forget an entire city so completely. Especially a possible proto-civilization for the Dwarves. That could also have something to do with how long it took them to come into contact with the Elven people on the surface.

For something to completely shake the society of Dwarves enough that they forget about their original culture, it would naturally take a long time to recover and build a new civilization afterwards.

Though they could always have just 'forgot' and decided that ancestor worship was a better idea than worshiping idols and dancing underneath red lyrium.

Well, many great civilizations/cities on our Earth were completely forgotten until archaeology rediscovered them. The Indus Valley (peak 2600- 1900 BCE), the Olmec (1500 BCE- 400 BCE), and the Minoan (2600 BCE- 1500 BCE) Civilizations were all forgotten and rediscovered in the 19th and 20th centuries.

I agree that the modern Dwarves may only be distantly related to the Primeval Thaig Dwarves, and the latter's civilization may have suffered a catastrophe comparable to the Minoan eruption either before, around, or after Arlathan's founding, and that the Dwarves may opened their gates to contact the Elves only to request help in rebuilding after the disaster.

#16
ddv.rsa

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The Angry One wrote...

So here's a thought, the humanoid figures on the idol don't really look like dwarves. Their torsos look far too tall and thin.
Any theories on that?


They worshipped the elves?

#17
The Angry One

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ddv.rsa wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

So here's a thought, the humanoid figures on the idol don't really look like dwarves. Their torsos look far too tall and thin.
Any theories on that?


They worshipped the elves?


No pointy ears as far as I can see.

#18
Augustei

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The Blight was actually caused by the Dwarves not the Tevinter Magisters. =D

#19
Raiil

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The Angry One wrote...

So here's a thought, the humanoid figures on the idol don't really look like dwarves. Their torsos look far too tall and thin.
Any theories on that?


Elves have lived with dwarves before. It's mentioned in the history of Cad'halash. Could just be a stylish depiction?

#20
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Maria Caliban wrote...

Making a staves is a form of enchantment. We learn that in DA:O as the Tranquils make them.

Yes, the tomb is untouched by darkspawn because of the ancient rock wrath, but we fight darkspawn right outside of the thaig. There's no reason to believe they've never been inside of it.

Well, they have to be making the staves for someone, right? And since they weren't in contact with anyone (not even the Elves)...

The Primeval Thaig is literally seething with Shades, Profanes, and out of control Golems. You don't see any Darkspawn corpse/artifact lying around either. You also needed to kill a Mature Dragon between the Darkspawn and the Primeval Thaig. In short I think the game gave me enough sense that the Primeval Thaig was very, very secure from any sort of Darkspawn intrusion. :-)

Modifié par iOnlySignIn, 07 avril 2011 - 04:50 .


#21
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The Angry One wrote...

ddv.rsa wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

So here's a thought, the humanoid figures on the idol don't really look like dwarves. Their torsos look far too tall and thin.
Any theories on that?


They worshipped the elves?


No pointy ears as far as I can see.


If the idol is made at the same time as the Primeval Thaig, which was built before the founding of Arlathan (and Elf-Dwarf contact), then it couldn't possibly be an Elf.

Also, artistic depictions tend to be different from real world body types. Art tends to lean toward the slender side. From the limited amount of art we see in the DA world, Thedas artists weren't that keen on realism.

It may also be some unique ancient Dwarven deity. Ancient Egyptians worshipped humanoid gods with animal heads (e.g. Anubis).

Here's a picture of the Lyrium Idol (anyone has better ones, please post!)

Posted Image

It indeed looks very slender. Currently in Thedas only Elves are that slender. But again, it might just be artistic imagination.

Modifié par iOnlySignIn, 07 avril 2011 - 04:46 .


#22
Densetsu.Eiyuu

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Or the modern day- dwarves are descended from the Dweomers, as their runes and such are still lying around for Tevinter mages and Tranquil alike to use in Runecrafting. As for the Thaig itself pre-dating Arlathan, it is possible that both civilizations happened to begin at the same time, and as no direct evidence has been given to prove the "Over 10,000 years old" statement, it is within all realms of possibility that both the Elvhen and Proto-Dwarves or Dweomers "rose to power" around the same time, if not simultaneously.

#23
Mnemnosyne

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I wonder if Valdasine's codex entry is related to the primeval thaig at all.  We do, after all, find Valdasine in the primeval thaig, and the codex entry does seem reasonably consistent with the thaig...but it also mentions a paragon which apparently there aren't any statues of in the primeval thaig, which was enough for Bartrand to find very peculiar.

It's possible the primeval thaig is Valdasine Thaig.  If so, however, why no Paragon statues?  Why would Bartrand find it so peculiar, if it was from a time that was recorded in the Memories?  Was Bartrand wrong about it being so unique, or is there some other explanation?

Another thing I think might be significant (perhaps in its insignificance) is the 'red lyrium' thing.  Note that all lyrium in DA2 - at least, all raw lyrium - is red.  This may mean that there is something different about the lyrium in the Kirkwall area as compared to the Orzammar area.  It may also mean absolutely nothing other than that they updated the graphics used for lyrium, and all raw lyrium may have been retconned into being red.

#24
The Angry One

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If you look closely at the figure on the top, there's a spike going upwards from it's head.
Just like.. Flemeth's headress...

#25
Exile Isan

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XxDeonxX wrote...

The Blight was actually caused by the Dwarves not the Tevinter Magisters. =D


This. I would love it if BioWare did this, mainly because it would make the Chantry wrong. Posted Image