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The Oldest And Most Advanced Civilization of Thedas... The Dwarves?

Débuté par Guest_iOnlySignIn_* , avril 07 2011 03:48

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#26
Maria Caliban
Posté 07 avril 2011 - 04:53

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The Angry One wrote...

So here's a thought, the humanoid figures on the idol don't really look like dwarves. Their torsos look far too tall and thin.
Any theories on that?


The masculine one looks like the statues of slaves in that they've both bald, elongated, and have visible spinal columns. The female figure is wearing the same headband as Meredeth, Flemeth, and the Gate Guardians.

#27
Densetsu.Eiyuu
Posté 07 avril 2011 - 04:53

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There is also the possibility that this was the location where the Dwarves lost their affinity for magic due to the high volume of Lyrium abound that led them to build a tolerance to its effects, thus stripping them of their magical talents; as according to one Tranquil: "...It is this very disconnect that allows us to use Lyrium so."

#28
Guest_iOnlySignIn_*
Posté 07 avril 2011 - 04:56

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Koyasha wrote...
I wonder if Valdasine's codex entry is related to the primeval thaig at all.  We do, after all, find Valdasine in the primeval thaig, and the codex entry does seem reasonably consistent with the thaig...but it also mentions a paragon which apparently there aren't any statues of in the primeval thaig, which was enough for Bartrand to find very peculiar.

I like to think that House Valdasine's Lyrium handling went horribly wrong and turned their own population into Profanes, and the staff Valdasine was forged as a last resort defense against the Profanes (who are weak to the Spirit damage dealt by Valdasine).

I think "Red Lyrium" is chosen because it has to be the color in which Meredith is glowing, and Red is Evil while Blue is Good (the color in which Anders/Justice is glowing). If it's the other way around and Anders glowed red the first time we see him, perhaps most players would have recognized him as evil simply because of the "Red is Evil" cliche.

I know I certainly went "Wow, he glows BLUE! He must be a good guy." the first time.

#29
Maria Caliban
Posté 07 avril 2011 - 04:58

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iOnlySignIn wrote...

If the idol is made at the same time as the Primeval Thaig, which was built before the founding of Arlathan (and Elf-Dwarf contact), then it couldn't possibly be an Elf.

That's like saying something built before the founding of Egypt couldn't possible be built by a human being. We have no idea if Arlathan was the first elven civilization; given that it spanned the entire continent, it's probably an apex civilization.

#30
Guest_iOnlySignIn_*
Posté 07 avril 2011 - 05:00

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Densetsu.Eiyuu wrote...

There is also the possibility that this was the location where the Dwarves lost their affinity for magic due to the high volume of Lyrium abound that led them to build a tolerance to its effects, thus stripping them of their magical talents; as according to one Tranquil: "...It is this very disconnect that allows us to use Lyrium so."

Well, that is Disconnect => Tolerance to Lyrium, not Lyrium => Disconnect. Lyrium enhances Magic, and no non-fatal overdose is known as far as I know (David Gaider mentioned possible addiction to Lyrium so that each drink of Lyrium brings diminishing returns in mana, but never anything about overdose resulting in a decrease in magic).

Personally, I think Meredith overdosed on Lyrium, and she became VERY magical instead of being stripped from magical talents.

#31
Mnemnosyne
Posté 07 avril 2011 - 05:02

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Meredith also has a head-spike adornment. And when she turns into a statue at the end it looks very similar to that, although there are clear differences - the statue she turns into has visible armor.

#32
The Angry One
Posté 07 avril 2011 - 05:05

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Well come to think of it if it morphed into a sword could have changed shape before.
Maybe it was reacting to the world above somehow.

#33
Densetsu.Eiyuu
Posté 07 avril 2011 - 05:08

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You're thinking about consuming the lyrium, if left in its natural state, it would kill humans. The dwarves being around it so much have developed resistances to it and magic, but it is never stated why or how, perhaps this Primeval Thaig is the answer. They lost their connection to the fade in some accident and with the lyrium around to help "mend" (or shield or possibly block) the rift in the veil; left unchecked, could have led to the decline and eventual vanishing of the civilization. The off chance that the scavenger found the raw lyrium idol and led back to this Thaig is a feat all its own.

#34
Guest_iOnlySignIn_*
Posté 07 avril 2011 - 05:13

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Maria Caliban wrote...

iOnlySignIn wrote...

If the idol is made at the same time as the Primeval Thaig, which was built before the founding of Arlathan (and Elf-Dwarf contact), then it couldn't possibly be an Elf.

That's like saying something built before the founding of Egypt couldn't possible be built by a human being. We have no idea if Arlathan was the first elven civilization; given that it spanned the entire continent, it's probably an apex civilization.

Good point. Arlathan feels like Babylon of the Elves to me.

But recorded and dated Elven history seem to begin with the founding of Arlathan, as does the Elven calendar. I would go so far as to assume that the Elven calendar was invented around the time of the founding of Arlathan. In our world, the beginning of recorded and dated history and the invention of a calendar system are two hallmarks of the early rising of a civilization.

So I'd like to say that the founding of Arlathan was a milestone, but the Elven civilization peaked perhaps millenia after its foundation, just like how the Babylonian Empire arose 1,500 years after Babylon was founded.

Yeah, but I agree. Elves likely existed for millenia before the founding of Arlathan, and we may yet be able to recover the ruins of Arlathan or even older Elven relics (older than the Primeval Thaig perhaps) in the future.

#35
Mnemnosyne
Posté 07 avril 2011 - 05:13

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I do wonder how it became a sword. As a sword it no longer seemed to have any images of humanoid figures, and to be honest didn't look recognizably like the idol to me, but I'm not sure I got a good enough look at it.

One thing that occurred to me was whether the figures that were part of the idol may once have been people, like Meredith? It certainly seems like, at the appropriate scale, the statue Meredith became would fit right in on the idol.

#36
The Angry One
Posté 07 avril 2011 - 05:18

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It doesn't really resemble it, no. The figures are gone except for a skull on the pommel.
Bleh, too many questions really. Hope they actually get around to explaining it.

#37
Guest_iOnlySignIn_*
Posté 07 avril 2011 - 05:18

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Maria Caliban wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

So here's a thought, the humanoid figures on the idol don't really look like dwarves. Their torsos look far too tall and thin.
Any theories on that?


The masculine one looks like the statues of slaves in that they've both bald, elongated, and have visible spinal columns. The female figure is wearing the same headband as Meredeth, Flemeth, and the Gate Guardians.

Either Thedas has an unbroken artistic tradition lasting more than ten millenia and across multiple species, or BioWare hired too few artists who ran out of styles. I honestly can't decide.

The statues of slaves are made by Tevinters, who learned their magic (and perhaps art style) from the Elves, and the Dwarves were in contact with the Elves before the Tevinters. This in addition to the slender physique reminicent of Elves almost leads me to conclude that the Ancient Elves of Elvhenan enjoyed total artistic and cultural dominance over all of Thedas. Which they should, seeing as they are immortal and the most important thing that gives rise to arts and sciences is leisure.

Modifié par iOnlySignIn, 07 avril 2011 - 05:22 .

#38
Amagoi
Posté 07 avril 2011 - 05:19

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Koyasha wrote...

I do wonder how it became a sword. As a sword it no longer seemed to have any images of humanoid figures, and to be honest didn't look recognizably like the idol to me, but I'm not sure I got a good enough look at it.

One thing that occurred to me was whether the figures that were part of the idol may once have been people, like Meredith? It certainly seems like, at the appropriate scale, the statue Meredith became would fit right in on the idol.


That's not out of the question, and a bit of a scary thought. It could be that the red lyrium/idol has some sort of way of replicating itself, driving people insane and eventually turning them into more of itself. It'd definatly give the Dwarves reason to forget about the thaig for a purpose. But that sounds a bit too much like a sci-fi B-movie from the 50s...

#39
Guest_iOnlySignIn_*
Posté 07 avril 2011 - 05:21

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Koyasha wrote...

I do wonder how it became a sword. As a sword it no longer seemed to have any images of humanoid figures, and to be honest didn't look recognizably like the idol to me, but I'm not sure I got a good enough look at it.

One thing that occurred to me was whether the figures that were part of the idol may once have been people, like Meredith? It certainly seems like, at the appropriate scale, the statue Meredith became would fit right in on the idol.

Unlike the idol, you can summon Meredith's sword with the console (and the additem mod) and look at it whatever way you like. It looks pretty unremarkable to me. Code:
gen_im_npc_wep_two_mera.uti

#40
Guest_Puddi III_*
Posté 07 avril 2011 - 05:23

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iOnlySignIn wrote...

Either Thedas has an unbroken artistic tradition lasting more than ten millenia and across multiple species, or BioWare hired too few artists who ran out of styles. I honestly can't decide.

Maybe certain magic requires the use of objects which look a certain way, necessitating that the art style remain the same.

... :?

Modifié par Filament, 07 avril 2011 - 05:24 .

#41
Emperor Iaius I
Posté 07 avril 2011 - 05:24

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Maria Caliban wrote...

iOnlySignIn wrote...

If the idol is made at the same time as the Primeval Thaig, which was built before the founding of Arlathan (and Elf-Dwarf contact), then it couldn't possibly be an Elf.

That's like saying something built before the founding of Egypt couldn't possible be built by a human being. We have no idea if Arlathan was the first elven civilization; given that it spanned the entire continent, it's probably an apex civilization.


Elvhenan spanned the entire continent by the time humans were on the scene, but that needn't have been the case when Arlathan, the city, was founded.

I also note that the Tevinters were the first organized human civilizations, and Minrathous was their first settlement, but they did not hit their apex under 300TE or so. Similarly, Roma was founded after the bronze age but took eight centuries or so to hit its apogee.

#42
Guest_iOnlySignIn_*
Posté 07 avril 2011 - 05:27

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^ Thanks! Roma is the best example here. An Emperor knows best. I was struggling to try to use Teotihuacan as an example (and settled with Babylon) - been reading too much about pre-Colombian American history recently, because the Tevinters honestly feel like the Conquistadors to the Elve's Aztecs & Incas to me.

Modifié par iOnlySignIn, 07 avril 2011 - 05:28 .

#43
Chuvvy
Posté 07 avril 2011 - 06:17

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The Angry One wrote...

So here's a thought, the humanoid figures on the idol don't really look like dwarves. Their torsos look far too tall and thin.
Any theories on that?


Protheans.

#44
Conduit0
Posté 07 avril 2011 - 07:49

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iOnlySignIn wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

So here's a thought, the humanoid figures on the idol don't really look like dwarves. Their torsos look far too tall and thin.
Any theories on that?


The masculine one looks like the statues of slaves in that they've both bald, elongated, and have visible spinal columns. The female figure is wearing the same headband as Meredeth, Flemeth, and the Gate Guardians.

Either Thedas has an unbroken artistic tradition lasting more than ten millenia and across multiple species, or BioWare hired too few artists who ran out of styles. I honestly can't decide.

The statues of slaves are made by Tevinters, who learned their magic (and perhaps art style) from the Elves, and the Dwarves were in contact with the Elves before the Tevinters. This in addition to the slender physique reminicent of Elves almost leads me to conclude that the Ancient Elves of Elvhenan enjoyed total artistic and cultural dominance over all of Thedas. Which they should, seeing as they are immortal and the most important thing that gives rise to arts and sciences is leisure.

You're forgetting that in a world where spirits, demons, and gods actually exist, civilizations don't require contact to have similiar inspirations for their deity worship.

Also I just want to point out the red lyrium in the thaig is not an artistic retcon, there are blue lyrium vains visible in the deeproads before you reach the primeval thaig, so the red lyrium is intentionally different. Now what that means, I have no idea.

#45
Guest_iOnlySignIn_*
Posté 07 avril 2011 - 08:03

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Conduit0 wrote...
You're forgetting that in a world where spirits, demons, and gods actually exist, civilizations don't require contact to have similiar inspirations for their deity worship.

Wow, that's a great point! Perhaps that is inspired by the true form of the Old Gods/The Maker? Come to think of it, Desire Demons look rather slender too.

As for the Blue/Red Lyrium, I still think it's an artistic choice. Not a retcon, but still a choice most likely independent of storyline. For example, can you imagine Green Lyrium? I mean, "it's... it's green?" Red and Blue are just pretty colors that look Magical. Green looks like vegetables or poison so it's not used, for example.

#46
PantheraOnca
Posté 07 avril 2011 - 08:46

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iOnlySignIn wrote...

Red and Blue are just pretty colors that look Magical. Green looks like vegetables or poison so it's not used, for example.


This line of reasoning is silly. Green can look magical, orange can look magical, about the only color I have a hard time imagining as magical is brown.

More likely is that red is typically viewed as hot/uncontrolled/dangerous while blue is typically viewed as cool/calm/safe.

#47
Ealos
Posté 07 avril 2011 - 08:54

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Everyone and everything seems to have a spike on their forehead, Flemeth, Meredith, Templar helmets, carta thugs, idol, list goes on... Refined lyrium is red, isn't it?

#48
Guest_iOnlySignIn_*
Posté 07 avril 2011 - 09:05

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PantheraOnca wrote...

iOnlySignIn wrote...

Red and Blue are just pretty colors that look Magical. Green looks like vegetables or poison so it's not used, for example.


This line of reasoning is silly. Green can look magical, orange can look magical, about the only color I have a hard time imagining as magical is brown.

More likely is that red is typically viewed as hot/uncontrolled/dangerous while blue is typically viewed as cool/calm/safe.

So you'd be OK with green lyrium? They don't remind you of vegetables? Well they do for me. : P Green may look radioactive, but no. Not magical. Maybe magical like Poison Ivy, but that's basically poisonous vegetable. Green is associated with plants and life, not with lifeless minerals such as Lyrium.

Orange may work, but it's too close to the color of larva, which is the major background color of the Deep Roads/a lot of other dungeons. That might make the Lyrium hard to find visually. A lot of locations (Sundermount, Wounded Coast) also have green/brown as one of their major colorings, making any green Lyrium hard to find visually.

Like the quest where they as you to find the Harlot's Blush, which is that blue flower on the Wounded Coast. Ever wonder why it's not a white flower?

Modifié par iOnlySignIn, 07 avril 2011 - 09:13 .

#49
WidowMaker9394
Posté 07 avril 2011 - 09:10

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Didn't the Tevinters sink Arlathan down into the earth?

Maybe there's a connection there....

#50
Conduit0
Posté 07 avril 2011 - 09:17

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Eh, I just can't buy the idea that the red lyrium is purely an artistic choice when we still see normal blue lyrium just a little while before. I can accept it being as simple as blue lyrium good, red lyrium baaaaaad. But not, ooooh, red mood lightning would be sooooo hawt for this thaig.
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