178 réponses à ce sujet

[IntoTheDarkness]

Bioware does its best to keep the difference from playing different genders to minimum. Even before DA2, all we had from different genders were few lines referring to the player's sex. In DA2 it got to somewhat extreme point, as the romance options were equalized for both genders.

I think this policy limits the mood of realism and harms RPG element.

I personally would appreciate diferentiation between different genders. When playing female, I would like to recieve more comments about how odd it is to see a woman on a battlefield, and as a man character I wish I could make dirty sexual innuendos on wenches.

To an extent, I even agree with imposing penalty over woman characters(as a choosable option) for female is physically weaker than male. To compensate the weakness, the woman character could recieve bonus from other areas.




I know a lot of people will be against gender penalty; then what is your opinion on whether to have the same experience for both genders on dialouge, romance, banters, aside from the penalty issue I mentioned above? 

Modifié par IntoTheDarkness, 07 avril 2011 - 05:14 .

[tuto1]

i think it would be really good about romance gender dialoge if im male haweke and romance with anders, then isabela should ask " are you gay ? I thoughu you liked my ******"

[A Crusty Knight Of Colour]

Inb4 the misogyny accusations and bashing. Hell hath no fury like a feminist scorned.



But half seriously, Thedas is progressive for a medieval fantasy world. Out of the many issues with the franchise, I consider the gender issues to be at worst an unimportant side issue and at best, a good step forward in changing social perceptions.

Modifié par mrcrusty, 07 avril 2011 - 05:34 .

[Boiny Bunny]

Filament wrote...

IntoTheDarkness wrote...

To an extent, I even agree with imposing penalty over woman characters(as a choosable option) for female is physically weaker than male. To compensate the weakness, the woman character could recieve bonus from other areas.

I'm just glad this isn't D&D with an intelligence stat, or this discussion would get really fun.

I doubt that.  Games in the past have given male and female characters different passive bonuses.  Typically the male gets +X strength, while the female gets one of:

+X dexterity
+X intelligence
+X charisma/social skill

Any of which are not wildly unreasonable.

[Scarletyoshi]

Equal stats for equal work I 'd say.

[CaimDark]

I think it's unnecessary and not really realistic to give stat penalties/bonuses based on gender. However, it would indeed be nice if we had more unique dialogues/character interactions/npc reactions that reflected our character's gender, and the same goes for sexual preference. It just feels weird that my female Hawke is "married" to Merril and everyone, from the most conservative clerics to the most wild... Isabelas... act like that's perfectly normal.

[Boiny Bunny]

CaimDark wrote...

I think it's unnecessary and not really realistic to give stat penalties/bonuses based on gender.

Unnecessary?  Absolutely.  Not realistic?  Rubbish.

Do we really live in such a world of ridiculous political correctness that we cannot even acknowledge that a man and a woman are, on average, better at different things?

Modifié par Boiny Bunny, 07 avril 2011 - 06:10 .

[Merced652]

On one hand i like games that do things like that generally, but when the game is as shallow as a puddle adding something like that seems trivial. Stats mean very little in this game because you are forced in to particular ones depending on class, and whats left is are few and so ineffectual that it doesn't matter. In a game in like NWN2 where you have skills, stats, and feats it makes more sense. But even they didn't have divergent stats/skills/anything based on gender, but on race. Things like that also tend to add replayability as people try and experiment with powerbuilds and things like that.

[Merced652]

Boiny Bunny wrote...

CaimDark wrote...

I think it's unnecessary and not really realistic to give stat penalties/bonuses based on gender.

Unnecessary?  Absolutely.  Not realistic?  Rubbish.

Do we really live in such a world of ridiculous political correctness that we cannot even acknowledge that a man and a woman are, on average, better at different things?

Yes, yes we do. Which, is rather apt given the uproar over homosexuality and anders rather ackward come-ons. 

[HeavyTankZA]

oh look this argument again...

[Satyricon331]

Boiny Bunny wrote...

CaimDark wrote...

I think it's unnecessary and not really realistic to give stat penalties/bonuses based on gender.

Unnecessary?  Absolutely.  Not realistic?  Rubbish.

Do we really live in such a world of ridiculous political correctness that we cannot even acknowledge that a man and a woman are better at different things?

The male average is stronger than the female average.  It doesn't somehow follow that each women has some strength penalty.  I just don't see a reason to take a player character as representative of some average (especially given that, even though male strength may range higher, the characters start out with a truncated range for their starting stats).  In DAO the starting stats usually differed by only a handful of points already between races.

[CaimDark]

Boiny Bunny wrote...

CaimDark wrote...

I think it's unnecessary and not really realistic to give stat penalties/bonuses based on gender.

Unnecessary?  Absolutely.  Not realistic?  Rubbish.

Do we really live in such a world of ridiculous political correctness that we cannot even acknowledge that a man and a woman are, on average, better at different things?

It has nothing to do with PC, and I do acknowlede that men and women tend to be better or at the very least drawn to different things. For example, men tend to be smarter, women tend to be cuter...

Seriously though, you said it yourself. Men and women may be on average better at different things, but that is not an absolute. To use the more common gaming  hero stereotype, there are plenty of women physically stronger than many men and plenty of men more agile and nimble than many women. Besides, you get to choose your character's attributes. If you want your female hero to have more dexterity and less strength you can do that, there is no reason to force it on the player.

[Boiny Bunny]

Satyricon331 wrote...

Boiny Bunny wrote...

CaimDark wrote...

I think it's unnecessary and not really realistic to give stat penalties/bonuses based on gender.

Unnecessary?  Absolutely.  Not realistic?  Rubbish.

Do we really live in such a world of ridiculous political correctness that we cannot even acknowledge that a man and a woman are better at different things?

The male average is stronger than the female average.  It doesn't somehow follow that each women has some strength penalty.  I just don't see a reason to take a player character as representative of some average (especially given that, even though male strength may range higher, the characters start out with a truncated range for their starting stats).  In DAO the starting stats usually differed by only a handful of points already between races.

Indeed - the fact that you can level up your stats throughout the game means that starting stats are almost a moot point.  Perhaps Bioware need a system where only male characters can equip heavy armour and 2 handed swords?  Then they would need to counterbalance that, by giving the female characters some kind of bonus that the male characters are capped at.

It's a tough decision - trading off between realism and not alienating the fans.  Bioware have typically gone for a 'please everybody' type approach, which is probably a good thing.

At any rate - my point is not really related to stats in a video game.  It's more a dig at the age of ridiculous political correctness that we live in - to the point of believing that every single person on the planet is absolutely and utterly equally capable at doing anything.

[Lotion Soronarr]

mrcrusty wrote...

Inb4 the misogyny accusations and bashing. Hell hath no fury like a feminist scorned.



But half seriously, Thedas is progressive for a medieval fantasy world. Out of the many issues with the franchise, I consider the gender issues to be at worst an unimportant side issue and at best, a good step forward in changing social perceptions.

Personally, I couldn't care less about feminists.
Man and women are different. It's the reality of the world we live in. Now Thedas is a fantasy setting and it might be different, but IMHO, it's a bad choice because it simply makes it harder to relate to humans that aren't like humans.

You know what they say about social perceptions and stereotypes? They came to be because there is truth in them.

[Taura-Tierno]

It depends on how you look at things though, doesn't it? Sure, most men are physically stronger (or capable of being physically stronger) than most women, but that isn't always true. Some women are stronger than many men, and that's that. I've always chosen to just think that the women we roleplay as are those women, who actually are of the stronger type, despite how frail they might look.

I don't agree about it being odd to see women on the battlefield, though. It really depends on the history of the world in question. Just because in our world women have always stayed at home while men were out hunting and killing and such, it doesn't mean that's true in every fantasy world. In DA2, women seem to be pretty common as soldiers. Perhaps not as common as men, but they certainly aren't an oddity. There are lots of female thugs, templars and guards.

[P_k_r]

This is Thedas and it's unlike Earth.

That's the argument you'll hear. Granted, it makes sense and avoids the uproar it will create in...certain circles which just can't acknowledge that men and women are different, both physically and mentally. Don't expect to see anything in this regard, the older RPG's tried that approach, but it has died out, to my knowledge at least.

[IntoTheDarkness]

Men are absolutely stronger than women. It is just a truth like female spiders devour male spiders, and like the female superiority found in most insects.
[Strength: Men > Women.]

If I go further, I can also generalize...

Women are more jealous. It's not a stereotype. It is natural instinct to preserve the group she formed, naturally being vigilant of other groups/ peers.
[Cunning: Women > Men.]

Women possess worse perception, added to their physical disadvantage. Often bad at directions.
[Dexterity: Men > Women]

Women possess superior observation ability. It's also something in their bone.
[Cunning(?): Women > Men.]

Women are better at multi-tasking
[Willpower: Women > Men.]



Scientifically speaking, women's physical ability is about 40% of men in the same age in 20s. Their 'limit' of physical strength is about 70% of men, though it is almost impossible to reach that level because women have difficulties in growing their mussel due to lack of male hormones.

So it is an anti-generalization to state that some women are stronger than men. Yeh, I heard news a dog attacked and killed a fully grown crocodile once on TV.

However, Women are more resistant againt desease and hungers...

[Willpower: Women > Men]


XD I just wrote these for fun. Don't throw rocks at me.

Modifié par IntoTheDarkness, 07 avril 2011 - 07:13 .

[randName]

IntoTheDarkness wrote...
Bioware does its best to keep the difference from playing different genders to minimum. Even before DA2, all we had from different genders were few lines referring to the player's sex. In DA2 it got to somewhat extreme point, as the romance options were equalized for both genders.

For one this isn't realism, and if BioWare had decided that women should be stronger than men there wouldn't have been a problem with that.

Arguing from reality is rather pointless given that its Thedas, and not Terra.


That said there is a point to be made for differences, but these shouldn't be argued from our conditions and history.

& there are not few females on the battlefield in DA, as they seem rather common in Ostagar, and also later, there does seem to be few female guards in Ferelden on the other hand.

& for all we know the maker made most bisexual when he created the people of Thedas.

Modifié par randName, 07 avril 2011 - 07:15 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Satyricon331 wrote...

Boiny Bunny wrote...

CaimDark wrote...

I think it's unnecessary and not really realistic to give stat penalties/bonuses based on gender.

Unnecessary?  Absolutely.  Not realistic?  Rubbish.

Do we really live in such a world of ridiculous political correctness that we cannot even acknowledge that a man and a woman are better at different things?

The male average is stronger than the female average.  It doesn't somehow follow that each women has some strength penalty.  I just don't see a reason to take a player character as representative of some average (especially given that, even though male strength may range higher, the characters start out with a truncated range for their starting stats).  In DAO the starting stats usually differed by only a handful of points already between races.

Wrong.
Take a look at professional sports...at professional athletes. Compare male and  female performance. It's pretty obvious.

Man, biologicly, have more muscle mass. About 40% more upper body strength and 20-30% more lower body strength IIRC. And there's endurance and "toughness".
Women in the army get injured twice as often during training and excercises (since they have to push themselves so hard), especially back injuries are common.

It sucks - if you're a woman and if you look at the above as a the value of a person, which is redicolous.

Women do have their own advantages. For one, they are better at multi-tasking than men (proven fact lads)

[randName]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Satyricon331 wrote...

Boiny Bunny wrote...

CaimDark wrote...

I think it's unnecessary and not really realistic to give stat penalties/bonuses based on gender.

Unnecessary?  Absolutely.  Not realistic?  Rubbish.

Do we really live in such a world of ridiculous political correctness that we cannot even acknowledge that a man and a woman are better at different things?

The male average is stronger than the female average.  It doesn't somehow follow that each women has some strength penalty.  I just don't see a reason to take a player character as representative of some average (especially given that, even though male strength may range higher, the characters start out with a truncated range for their starting stats).  In DAO the starting stats usually differed by only a handful of points already between races.

Wrong.
Take a look at professional sports...at professional athletes. Compare male and  female performance. It's pretty obvious.

Man, biologicly, have more muscle mass. About 40% more upper body strength and 20-30% more lower body strength IIRC. And there's endurance and "toughness".
Women in the army get injured twice as often during training and excercises (since they have to push themselves so hard), especially back injuries are common.

It sucks - if you're a woman and if you look at the above as a the value of a person, which is redicolous.

Women do have their own advantages. For one, they are better at multi-tasking than men (proven fact lads)

But this isn't reality, its fantasy, and its a different world and a different reality.

[Satyricon331]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Satyricon331 wrote...
The male average is stronger than the female average.  It doesn't somehow follow that each women has some strength penalty.  I just don't see a reason to take a player character as representative of some average (especially given that, even though male strength may range higher, the characters start out with a truncated range for their starting stats).  In DAO the starting stats usually differed by only a handful of points already between races.

Wrong.
Take a look at professional sports...at professional athletes. Compare male and  female performance. It's pretty obvious.

Man, biologicly, have more muscle mass. About 40% more upper body strength and 20-30% more lower body strength IIRC. And there's endurance and "toughness".
Women in the army get injured twice as often during training and excercises (since they have to push themselves so hard), especially back injuries are common.

It sucks - if you're a woman and if you look at the above as a the value of a person, which is redicolous.

Women do have their own advantages. For one, they are better at multi-tasking than men (proven fact lads)

LOL.  Reread my post.  Your points don't contradict my statements at all.  

[wowpwnslol]

No thanks. Gender penalties are stupid, especially in a combat centric game, where no one will ever play a female character because you will start out weaker. Even old school DnD never had gender based penalties. Gender based dialogue options are fine, though.

[IntoTheDarkness]

randName wrote...

IntoTheDarkness wrote...
Bioware does its best to keep the difference from playing different genders to minimum. Even before DA2, all we had from different genders were few lines referring to the player's sex. In DA2 it got to somewhat extreme point, as the romance options were equalized for both genders.

For one this isn't realism, and if BioWare had decided that women should be stronger than men there wouldn't have been a problem with that.

Arguing from reality is rather pointless given that its Thedas, and not Terra.


That said there is a point to be made for differences, but these shouldn't be argued from our conditions and history.

Thedas with Enlgand, France, Germany, and possibly Rome? 

Fantasy world should depict the 'real' humans even they set on imagenary world. This is how we can roll play them. If these characters were human looking - different living 'things', we wouldn't be able to blame them for incests or anything non-human behaviors either.

Comparing reality to the fantasy world isn't pointless. However, you could call it pointless to compare triffling physical natures that have nothing to do with human's inner side.

Modifié par IntoTheDarkness, 07 avril 2011 - 07:25 .

[IntoTheDarkness]

My point is this. Whether men's physical superiority is statistically implanted into the game is, as you asserted, not important.

What matters is that we can always appreciate an imaginary world that has real humans, or real characters, in the game. Male-dominance of our society is certainly creating interesting relations and cultures in reality. This complicated relationship can be implanted in the game to give more realistic feelings on characters. Having minimal difference between Male/Female doesn't mean Ferelden is unique world on its own. It only means that Thedas has only one gender, with 2 different looking sub-categories.

And trust me, this is BAD.