178 réponses à ce sujet

[randName]

IntoTheDarkness wrote...

randName wrote...

IntoTheDarkness wrote...
Bioware does its best to keep the difference from playing different genders to minimum. Even before DA2, all we had from different genders were few lines referring to the player's sex. In DA2 it got to somewhat extreme point, as the romance options were equalized for both genders.

For one this isn't realism, and if BioWare had decided that women should be stronger than men there wouldn't have been a problem with that.

Arguing from reality is rather pointless given that its Thedas, and not Terra.


That said there is a point to be made for differences, but these shouldn't be argued from our conditions and history.

Thedas with Enlgand, France, German, and possibly Romans? 

Fantasy world should depict the 'real' humans even they set on imagenary world. This is how we can roll play them. If these characters were human looking - different living 'things', we wouldn't be able to blame them for incests or anything non-human behaviors either.

Comparing reality to the fantasy world isn't pointless. However, you could call it pointless to compare triffling physical natures that have nothing to do with human's inner side.

Yes, Thedas is simply based upon our world, and the people are based upon LotR mythology, that was based upon sagas of the day, and those all but forgotten.

Superheroes are obviously based upon reality, but you don't demand that they act human in all things.

We only need references to reality to understand the character, we don't need actual reality, and what they are based upon is what the creators, the makers, decide is for the best to mix and chose between reality and fantasy. Obviously BioWare felt that real world connections to nations would be good for DA and Thedas, that doesn't mean they have to thus enroll reality upon anything else in the world they built.

If you want reality, you can walk outside, and we don't want more reality in Fantasy than what is need for us to immerse ourselves into the world.

Nor can you never argue that it should be like this, or that, based upon reality, only ask if it wouldn't be a good idea. For fantasy is by its very nature not reality, but only takes those parts it needs to build a story we can relate to.

And thus the makers that be could easily state that all men and women are born bisexual, and in the world of Thedas this is now lore and norm.

Modifié par randName, 07 avril 2011 - 09:18 .

[randName]

IntoTheDarkness wrote...

My point is this. Whether men's physical superiority is statistically implanted into the game is, as you asserted, not important.

What matters is that we can always appreciate an imaginary world that has real humans, or real characters, in the game. Male-dominance of our society is certainly creating interesting relations and cultures in reality. This complicated relationship can be implanted in the game to give more realistic feelings on characters. Having minimal difference between Male/Female doesn't mean Ferelden is unique world on its own. It only means that Thedas has only one gender, with 2 different looking sub-categories.

And trust me, this is BAD.

This is your opinion, while many would claim that one of the most charming aspects of fantasy worlds are their gender  equality; I for one subscribe to this facet.

[F-C]

i think the gender differences is very narrow minded.

some men are born skinny and weak, while some women are born thick and strong.

this idea that 'men are just naturally stronger' is some old, and incorrect, sexist crap.


....and yes i am a man.

[tanarri23]

I'm against enforced stat bonuses/penalties. Sure, there are obvious differences between an average man and an average woman, but the protagonist isn't supposed to be average. And you decide your character's stats and class anyway, so nothing stops you from making your males stronger and your females more cunning.

I wouldn't mind the world being more aware of your character's gender, but I don't think it's entirely unaware either. I mean, it's not like Leliana tries to discuss shoes and hairstyles with a male Warden

[Irx]

Boiny Bunny wrote...

+X dexterity
+X intelligence
+X charisma/social skill

Any of which are not wildly unreasonable.

All of them are, since females do not excel males in general in any of these in the real world (I would debate it is actually the opposite way, but don't want to start the flame war).

Anyway, stat bonuses/penalties are kind of useless, since we're supposed to play heroes, not the ordinary joes, and heroes are far beyond natural physical gender peculiarities.

But on the part of gender specific social inteructions I agree completely.

[F-C]

tanarri23 wrote...

I'm against enforced stat bonuses/penalties. Sure, there are obvious differences between an average man and an average woman, but the protagonist isn't supposed to be average. And you decide your character's stats and class anyway, so nothing stops you from making your males stronger and your females more cunning.

I wouldn't mind the world being more aware of your character's gender, but I don't think it's entirely unaware either. I mean, it's not like Leliana tries to discuss shoes and hairstyles with a male Warden

not to be nitpicky... but it is entirely possible to get into a conversation about shoes with leliana as a straight male warden... lol.

though i do not recall anything about hair styles.

[John Forseti]

The average woman is not as strong as the average man. I think everyone agrees.

However, the average human is not a mage, yet you can still be a mage. So why not a woman as strong as the average man?

[Lotion Soronarr]

Irxy wrote...

Anyway, stat bonuses/penalties are kind of useless, since we're supposed to play heroes, not the ordinary joes, and heroes are far beyond natural physical gender peculiarities.

Not really.

It is a fallacy to compare an exceptional woman against a below-average man. Because in general, on the battlefield you will be competing against your equals, or better.

An AVERAGE male athlete will outperform an exceptional woman athlete.
Take for example...Serena Willimas (or was it the oter one). Considered one of the best female tenis players in the world. And she is built like a man.
Palyed a match against some mid-ranked male player and lost utterly.

Yes, it's nice ot belive there are no differences and we are all equal (in terms of abilities) and everythnig is butterfleis and sunshine..but that is basicly sticking your hand in the sand and ignoring reality.

[FlintlockJazz]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
For one, they are better at multi-tasking than men (proven fact lads)

Not true, there is actually now research showing that women are actually worse at multitasking than men, as the actual end result for each task ends up worse over the same period of time than when done by a man.  This is because situations and differences in the tasks at hand have a huge impact.  It is hard enough, or rather it is impossible, to properly assign stats to people's capabilities as it is, when you start applying gender differences you are not going to get a proper representation ever, and someone somewhere is going to prove them wrong, and so it's pointless to try when all it will do is restrict player choice...

[randName]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Irxy wrote...

Anyway, stat bonuses/penalties are kind of useless, since we're supposed to play heroes, not the ordinary joes, and heroes are far beyond natural physical gender peculiarities.

Not really.

It is a fallacy to compare an exceptional woman against a below-average man. Because in general, on the battlefield you will be competing against your equals, or better.

An AVERAGE male athlete will outperform an exceptional woman athlete.
Take for example...Serena Willimas (or was it the oter one). Considered one of the best female tenis players in the world. And she is built like a man.
Palyed a match against some mid-ranked male player and lost utterly.

Yes, it's nice ot belive there are no differences and we are all equal (in terms of abilities) and everythnig is butterfleis and sunshine..but that is basicly sticking your hand in the sand and ignoring reality.

In the real world yes, men have huge advantages in any physical competition.

It's a good thing Thedas isn't the real world, and we don't have to be what we are here.

[Zkyire]

CaimDark wrote...

I think it's unnecessary and not really realistic to give stat penalties/bonuses based on gender. However, it would indeed be nice if we had more unique dialogues/character interactions/npc reactions that reflected our character's gender, and the same goes for sexual preference. It just feels weird that my female Hawke is "married" to Merril and everyone, from the most conservative clerics to the most wild... Isabelas... act like that's perfectly normal.

..men are larger and stronger than women.

That's a fact. So.. it's realistic.

You're right on it being unnecessary though.

[Andraste_Reborn]

Personally, I have to deal with sexism on a daily basis in the real world. I prefer not to have to put up with it when I'm gaming as well.

Men are definitely stronger than women on average, but I don't think reflecting this in game stats would be terribly meaningful. My female warrior ended up four times stronger than Sebastian and Varric, which is obviously not realistic. But nor is my mage shooting fireballs from her hands having four times as much will power as anyone else. Stats are just an abstraction of player abilities.

The neurological differences between the sexes are much debated, and we still don't know a lot about them.

[The Corporate]

Not gonna happen. David Gaider is a hard-lefty feminist type, and would sooner ****** on his hammer & sickle than recognise in-game that a believable society will have elements of gender roles.

Not to mention that he seems to have sourced all his writers from the largely female Harry Potter-Twilight yaoi crossover fanfic community.

Modifié par The Corporate, 07 avril 2011 - 09:35 .

[randName]

The Corporate wrote...

Not gonna happen. David Gaider is a hard-lefty feminist type, and would sooner ****** on his hammer & sickle than recognise in-game that a believable society will have elements of gender roles.

As are most fantasy games/books in that case, and why would they automatically adapt what we have on earth? esp. given that there are gods and mythical beings in the lands of Thedas.


& Feminism and socialism doesn't argue that both genders are the same, nor does all of feminism or socialism argue that they are of equal worth, some even argue that women are more important, and in a sense they are and thus have gotten pushed into being the protected and stowed away, as to be kept safe.

Fantasy is a simplification on the other hand, and an Utopian world without bowel movements and a lack of heroes.

Modifié par randName, 07 avril 2011 - 09:43 .

[sassperella]

Andrastee wrote...

Personally, I have to deal with sexism on a daily basis in the real world. I prefer not to have to put up with it when I'm gaming as well.

Men are definitely stronger than women on average, but I don't think reflecting this in game stats would be terribly meaningful. My female warrior ended up four times stronger than Sebastian and Varric, which is obviously not realistic. But nor is my mage shooting fireballs from her hands having four times as much will power as anyone else. Stats are just an abstraction of player abilities.

The neurological differences between the sexes are much debated, and we still don't know a lot about them.

This.
Please don't bring sexism into games. It's fantasy, you can cast magic, you can bounce around ninja style - it's not real. Imposing gender stat differences is unnecessary and would just cause a lot of controversy. It's not going to happen.

[The Corporate]

randName wrote...

The Corporate wrote...

Not gonna happen. David Gaider is a hard-lefty feminist type, and would sooner ****** on his hammer & sickle than recognise in-game that a believable society will have elements of gender roles.

As are most fantasy games/books in that case, and why would they atomatically adapt what we have on eart? esp. given that there are gods and mythical beings in the lands of Thedas.

Plausability. If we're going down the 'its fantasy, anything goes' route, why not make Hawke a hundred feet tall and shoot lazer beams from his eyes, while everyone drives around Kirkwall with cars made from emmental cheese?

Also, the 'Hawke isn't just average' excuse for why women are exactly the same as men in this game doesn't fly either. If you take a look at the composition of armies in this game, you'll see there's an abundance of front-line female soldiers thrown into the mix. That's something even modern Western armies, which try to be inclusive (one significant exception noted), don't allow - the average female demonstrably doesn't have the physical strength to match the average man.

The fact is that when constructing a fantasy universe, you generally take the real world around you and then actively choose which bits you're going to alter. Trees remain cellulose-based structures with green leaves and roots. Pseudo-medieval buildings remain built of stone or a stone substitute. Clothes are made from fabrics and leather. Swords are made from metal, which is hard, grey and shiny. Average human beings speak with their mouths, have two eyes, walk upright and use their hands and arms to grasp things. Etc etc etc. If there's a difference between this world and a fantasy one, it's because the people who made that fantasy world wanted to change something to make room for the plot or, as in this case I suspect, assert one's political beliefs. It's clear that Gaider felt that, in Dragon Age, having a world of perfect harmonious rainbow equality was more important than plausabilty, which is a very odd choice for an environment which not only contains real-world flaws (discrimination forming the basis of the plotline) but in many cases accentuates them.

Apparently, for Gaider, certain types of discrimination are more palletable than others.

*I should probably add that I don't agree with stats-based gender differences either. Just that, for me, it's immersion breaking to see armies stacked up with women, the implication being that they have precisely the same physical attributes as men, simply because it's not very plausible.

Modifié par The Corporate, 07 avril 2011 - 10:12 .

[Carfax]

Having different gender stats is definitely not a good idea. It would be far too controversial and would likely end up driving away a lot of female gamers, of which Bioware is aggressively trying to market to by always providing a choice in the PC's gender.

[Galad22]

F-C wrote...

i think the gender differences is very narrow minded.

some men are born skinny and weak, while some women are born thick and strong.

this idea that 'men are just naturally stronger' is some old, and incorrect, sexist crap.


....and yes i am a man.

I agree.

Is this sexist crap really needed on these forums.

This thread is not going anywhere good.

[Carfax]

F-C wrote...

i think the gender differences is very narrow minded.

some men are born skinny and weak, while some women are born thick and strong.

this idea that 'men are just naturally stronger' is some old, and incorrect, sexist crap.


....and yes i am a man.

There will always be exceptions, but generally speaking, there is a large amount of difference between men and women in terms of physical abilities......especially when we look at the ELITES.

To deny this is to deny reality.

[randName]

The Corporate wrote...
Plausability. If we're going down the 'its fantasy, anything goes' route, why not make Hawke a hundred feet tall and shoot lazer beams from his eyes, while everyone drives around Kirkwall with cars made from emmental cheese?

Yes, as long as it grips the desired audience and makes for a good story, for the desired audience, that wouldn't be a problem.

Also, the 'Hawke isn't just average' excuse for why women are exactly the same as men in this game doesn't fly either. If you take a look at the composition of armies in this game, you'll see there's an abundance of front-line female soldiers thrown into the mix. That's something even modern Western armies, which try to be inclusive (one significant exception noted), don't allow - the average female demonstrably doesn't have the physical strength to match the average man. There's no real excuse for that - it's just Gaider forcing his politics onto the game.

Doesn't fly for you maybe, I for one like Utopian fantasy, and I play, read it for its escapism not for its realism. Sure I read books like "Song of Fire and Ice" and social commentary fiction and non-fiction as well, but I have no problems with escapist fantasy, and see nothing wrong with it.

& Again this isn't Terra, and obviouly men and women are of equal strength in Thedas, like it or not.


EDIT: based on your edit.
One such reason can simply be to avoid having to do social commentary, to escape the constraints of reality and only keep what you feel you need to make people immersed, and as such its easier to keep visual and audible similarities, besides its frustratingly hard to come up with believable visual constructs not seen previously, so we mostly copy from the real world, even when we aspire not to.

Or Egyptian gods are many fascinating, strange and twisted in their tale, but in the end they only got human bodies with a animal head attached to it, I'd blame our limited creativity with the visual, while we easily create gods, religions, and strange tales as long as we don't have to do so in imagery.

So fantasy worlds look often like the next fantasy world, DA:O being a perfect example of cloning when it came to the visual design.

But social commentary is hard to get right, and not only is it hard to write, but its frustrating to get people to accept and to like, so its easier to just try to skip it, make everyone the same, to make everyone bisexual and scrub away racism, feminism, sexism, misogyny, and anything else of complexity.

Nor is it especially rewarding if you seek escapism.


Also most people don't have a problem with how gender is treated in fantasy tales like DA2 and DA:O, how ever blase or inane you might find it.

Modifié par randName, 07 avril 2011 - 10:08 .

[Carfax]

BTW, doesn't the Elderscrolls series provide different bonuses for each race depending on your gender?

[Taura-Tierno]

The Corporate wrote...

randName wrote...

The Corporate wrote...

Not gonna happen. David Gaider is a hard-lefty feminist type, and would sooner ****** on his hammer & sickle than recognise in-game that a believable society will have elements of gender roles.

As are most fantasy games/books in that case, and why would they atomatically adapt what we have on eart? esp. given that there are gods and mythical beings in the lands of Thedas.

Plausability. If we're going down the 'its fantasy, anything goes' route, why not make Hawke a hundred feet tall and shoot lazer beams from his eyes, while everyone drives around Kirkwall with cars made from emmental cheese?

Also, the 'Hawke isn't just average' excuse for why women are exactly the same as men in this game doesn't fly either. If you take a look at the composition of armies in this game, you'll see there's an abundance of front-line female soldiers thrown into the mix. That's something even modern Western armies, which try to be inclusive (one significant exception noted), don't allow - the average female demonstrably doesn't have the physical strength to match the average man. There's no real excuse for that - it's just Gaider forcing his politics onto the game.

The fact is that when constructing a fantasy universe, you generally take the real world around you and then actively choose which bits you're going to alter. Trees remain cellulose-based structures with green leaves and roots. Pseudo-medieval buildings remain built of stone or a stone substitute. Clothes are made from fabrics and leather, etc etc etc. If there's a difference between this world and a fantasy one, it's because the people who made that fantasy world wanted to change something. It's clear that Gaider felt that, in Dragon Age, having a world of perfect harmonious rainbow equality was more important than plausabilty, which is a very odd choice for an environment where certain not only contain real-world flaws (discrimination forming the basis of the plotline) but in many cases accentuate them.

Apparently, for Gaider, certain types of discrimination are more palletable than others.

But anything does go in fantasy. It's a matter of how it's implemented. If someone wants to write about a world where females are stronger and men are weaker, that's, you know ... fine. Take a look at the Drow in the Forgotten Realms. The females are described as larger and stronger than most males. Works perfectly fine.

If the women in Thedas don't suffer from the same weaknesses to the same extent as in this world, that's fine. And if they generally do, but Bioware has decided to ignore it, I don't mind that either. Falls within reasonable suspension of disbelief, for me. Having stats based on gender isn't fun, because that would make it "better" to play, say, a mage as female, which might not be all that fun if you want a male mage. And the same goes for warriors, of course.

[sassperella]

Carfax wrote...

F-C wrote...

i think the gender differences is very narrow minded.

some men are born skinny and weak, while some women are born thick and strong.

this idea that 'men are just naturally stronger' is some old, and incorrect, sexist crap.


....and yes i am a man.

There will always be exceptions, but generally speaking, there is a large amount of difference between men and women in terms of physical abilities......especially when we look at the ELITES.

To deny this is to deny reality.

And there's the rub... DRAGON AGE IS NOT REALITY...

[Carfax]

sassperella wrote...

And there's the rub... DRAGON AGE IS NOT REALITY...

I know, and I'm not even arguing in favor of different gender stats.  I was just making a point

[smooshmonster]

I can't think of a precedent. I can't think of a single RPG that gives women and men different starting stats. Many people have argued pretty good points here, but I think it's mostly because it's unnecessary. I tend to think if players think that women should not be as strong as men, they can just build their characters that way.

I do however agree with the OP in a way (just not about the stat differences). Personally, I tried playing a female elf who was also a warrior, but I couldn't bring myself to raise strength beyond a certain point because she just looked too skinny. This might be hard to implement, but it would be a lot more realistic if my elf got bigger and meatier the more I raised her strength. I never got why the game needs to have women who are sticks-with-hair and men who are buff and strong.

And Origins had plenty of special conversations that come up differently for males and females. DA2, not as much.