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[randName]

CaimDark wrote...

It just occurred to me that this thread has very little to do with DA2 at this point and will probably be locked as soon as a mod shows up!

Yes, once it just glides into gender difference and gender roles in life it will get locked, but a small tip, if you don't want it to be locked you might want to guide it right.

And if you want it to be locked, well good going I guess. :smug:











Back to topic, sort of.

That said it would be fun with a lore that creates different gender roles in a game world like DA.
Reminds me of a tribe somewhere that believes women get pregnant due to spirits ancestors, old members of the tribe now dead that race through the ocean as dolphins, and sometimes not.

To allow these ancestors to impregnate women the woman wanting a child takes with her a man from the tribe and walks down into the water and then copulates, a lot, as to open her for the ancestors.

Now this is Terra, not Thedas, but here we know why the women really gets pregnant, well its not the spirit dolphins anyway.

But in Thedas ideas like these could be real, well hopefully not this idea, but any idea really that we could find believable in the context of supernatural beings, and given mythology and present day religion we can believe a lot of things that seem very strange to the outsider.

And as such it would be fun if they would have made gender roles in DA, but had thrown them like in the tale, for there the actual father is not the father, just a friend that helped the mother open herself to a holy union, and the man that acts the father will be her brother.

And equally genders roles could be overturned in DA to act as social commentary in a "what if" scenario, instead of one that just tries to copy our reality, one without gods, daemons and spirits (unless you are religious, but ~ at least I doubt you claim them to be as visual and present at those of Thedas).

Modifié par randName, 07 avril 2011 - 11:26 .

[Irx]

Galad22 wrote...

Here is one link for smarter.

news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/education/8085011.stm

Please, don't bring yellow press into this.
http://en.wikipedia....gy#Intelligence

[Augustei]

IntoTheDarkness wrote...







Bioware does its best to keep the difference from playing different genders to minimum. Even before DA2, all we had from different genders were few lines referring to the player's sex. In DA2 it got to somewhat extreme point, as the romance options were equalized for both genders.

I think this policy limits the mood of realism and harms RPG element.

I personally would appreciate diferentiation between different genders. When playing female, I would like to recieve more comments about how odd it is to see a woman on a battlefield, and as a man character I wish I could make dirty sexual innuendos on wenches.

To an extent, I even agree with imposing penalty over woman characters(as a choosable option) for female is physically weaker than male. To compensate the weakness, the woman character could recieve bonus from other areas.




I know a lot of people will be against gender penalty; then what is your opinion on whether to have the same experience for both genders on dialouge, romance, banters, aside from the penalty issue I mentioned above? 

Well they have this in Seheron & Par Vollen, As well as Antiva and im not to sure but maybe Rivain.

[Augustei]

The Corporate wrote...

Can I just note here that, despite women having the same attributes as men, making just as good soldiers as men, etc, BioWare still modelled them as being physically more slight than men.

You can't have your cake and eat it. Either women are more frail than men, as their slender structures and complete lack of substantial muscle mass indicate, or you otherwise make every woman thick and sturdily built. Panning across a front line of troops and seeing girls with the waists of broom handles standing next to men built like tree trunks and then suggesting that they're both equally as good in a scrap just seems absurd.

Making as good soldiers as men... Well... At the risk of sounding sexist
there is a reason they are forbidden from the SAS I think Seals and
many other special forces

Modifié par XxDeonxX, 07 avril 2011 - 11:38 .

[randName]

XxDeonxX wrote...

The Corporate wrote...

Can I just note here that, despite women having the same attributes as men, making just as good soldiers as men, etc, BioWare still modelled them as being physically more slight than men.

You can't have your cake and eat it. Either women are more frail than men, as their slender structures and complete lack of substantial muscle mass indicate, or you otherwise make every woman thick and sturdily built. Panning across a front line of troops and seeing girls with the waists of broom handles standing next to men built like tree trunks and then suggesting that they're both equally as good in a scrap just seems absurd.

Making as good soldiers as men... Well... At the risk of sounding sexist there is a reason they are forbidden from the SAS I think Seals and many other special forces

& that is on earth, not in Thedas.

[Augustei]

randName wrote...

XxDeonxX wrote...

The Corporate wrote...

Can I just note here that, despite women having the same attributes as men, making just as good soldiers as men, etc, BioWare still modelled them as being physically more slight than men.

You can't have your cake and eat it. Either women are more frail than men, as their slender structures and complete lack of substantial muscle mass indicate, or you otherwise make every woman thick and sturdily built. Panning across a front line of troops and seeing girls with the waists of broom handles standing next to men built like tree trunks and then suggesting that they're both equally as good in a scrap just seems absurd.

Making as good soldiers as men... Well... At the risk of sounding sexist there is a reason they are forbidden from the SAS I think Seals and many other special forces

& that is on earth, not in Thedas.

True, many reasons for that on Earth may simply be due to Gender Equality still not being fully established yet but Thedas still has a chance! lol... Sept maybe the Qunari and their restrictions even though they allow Women to take on leadership roles they still wont allow them millitant roles it would seem.. And them Qunari are a stubborn bunch anyway so idk if things will change there.

As for Antiva. Idk maybe, coulds go either way atm

[Darth Krytie]

I think making decisions based on gender is ridiculous. For one, most people in this thread seem to miss that you're using the word wrong. Gender has very little to do with your genitalia at birth and everything to do with how you self identify.

Gender:a set of two or more grammatical categories into which the nouns of certain languages are divided, sometimes but not necessarily corresponding to the sex of the referent when animate

Sex, however, is different: either the male or female division of a species, especially as differentiated with reference to the reproductive functions.

Ergo, the entire premise is faulty to start. Moreover, I think it's based in an incredible amount of stereotyping and generalizing. I wouldn't buy a game that did such a thing.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Satyricon331 wrote...
Your post does not rationally respond to the point.  Irxy (implicitly) points out that the hero is not a random selection, so stat effects to represent the gender's statistical central tendency are nonsense.  You note that the enemies we encounter on the battlefield are scaled to the player level - that's not a random selection either, and simply strengthen's Irxy's point - but then try to compare an atypical female against... a male who's statistically representative for an unrepresentative subset of men?  The most I can say for your point is that male athletic prowess (strength/dex stats) range higher than womens', which is true in RL.  But the game has no upper cap on stats (unlike BG barring tomes etc.) so it's off-point.

Oh?I thought "Hawke" was supposed to be just a normal guy/gal? In other words, nothing special.

But fine. I'll bite. Even assuming you take the cream-of-the-crop woman....there will still be thousands of man who will beat her when it comes to physical prowess/fitness.

There is a reason women in the army serve mostly in support roles. There is a reason that there are no women in special forces. And it isn't mysgony, but rather sheer practicality.

A woman can be a decent soldier. But she won't be ranked among the best..ever. The bar is set too high. Heck, when it comes to special forces, even most males who apply - who are already above average - fail. It's just THAT strenoius and demanding.
And assuming a women by some miracle does make it, she will wear herself out faster and be more prone to injury - simply because she well have to push herself harder to keep up.

There is nothing malicious about my words. It's just a statement of fact.

Women do have advantages of their own. Studies suggest they are more perceptive (especially in social situations) and are better at multi-tasking.


Personally, I like humans in fantasy words to be direct counterparts to real-life humans. After all, there's no point in calling them humans if you change them.

[Lotion Soronarr]

IEatWhatIPoo wrote...

While it's true that men are physically stronger than women, it doesn't really matter in game. Why? Because if we take the base stats of 10 that you start out with as the basis for the individual attributes for people (that 10 strength  / 10 dexterity etc. being what a normal person has). But when you look at the end of the game, where you can have what, 50+ strength? Do people really believe your character is 5 times stronger than a normal person at that point? No, it's just to reflect in-game mechanics.

So yes, while men are stronger in real life, the fact is that it doesn't matter, because it's a game.

Meh. I hate DA:O and DA2 attribute/leveling mechanics.
I wish they'd go back to something closer to D&D. Small physical changes over the course of hte game, bigger impact, more sensible ranges.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Souris wrote...
Not really, I mostly just dislike your opinion. I'm not a feminist by any means, but growing up with a single mother in the military makes me feel as though women are a lot stronger than people give them credit for. Both physically and emotionally.

In short, my mother is about as badass as any man out there. She was the only one in her squadron who could fix the Aurora's fuel cells, and was the boss of 18 men.

Which shows she's smart and a capable leader...nothing which has to do with physical fitness.

[Joush]

Stat differences don't really make sense, given that elves are physically the equal of human PC/NPC's and are around a full foot shorter rather then four inches or so and weigh five stone less.

As far as deeper differences between male and females in dialog, that would be nice. Keep in mind that the basic setting has females as the equals of males in most areas, and the major region is girls only for the positions of major power. The game (at least, DA:O) explains why women adventurers aren't greeted with more surprise. (The pope, cardinals, bishops and all the way down to the village preachers are all women. They have a lot of power. The rest you can blaim on magic).

[Satyricon331]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Satyricon331 wrote...
Your post does not rationally respond to the point.  Irxy (implicitly) points out that the hero is not a random selection, so stat effects to represent the gender's statistical central tendency are nonsense.  You note that the enemies we encounter on the battlefield are scaled to the player level - that's not a random selection either, and simply strengthen's Irxy's point - but then try to compare an atypical female against... a male who's statistically representative for an unrepresentative subset of men?  The most I can say for your point is that male athletic prowess (strength/dex stats) range higher than womens', which is true in RL.  But the game has no upper cap on stats (unlike BG barring tomes etc.) so it's off-point.

Oh?I thought "Hawke" was supposed to be just a normal guy/gal? In other words, nothing special.

But fine. I'll bite. Even assuming you take the cream-of-the-crop woman....there will still be thousands of man who will beat her when it comes to physical prowess/fitness.

There is a reason women in the army serve mostly in support roles. There is a reason that there are no women in special forces. And it isn't mysgony, but rather sheer practicality.

A woman can be a decent soldier. But she won't be ranked among the best..ever. The bar is set too high. Heck, when it comes to special forces, even most males who apply - who are already above average - fail. It's just THAT strenoius and demanding.
And assuming a women by some miracle does make it, she will wear herself out faster and be more prone to injury - simply because she well have to push herself harder to keep up.

There is nothing malicious about my words. It's just a statement of fact.

Women do have advantages of their own. Studies suggest they are more perceptive (especially in social situations) and are better at multi-tasking.

Personally, I like humans in fantasy words to be direct counterparts to real-life humans. After all, there's no point in calling them humans if you change them.

None of which is responsive to the criticism I raised.  Did you read my post at all?

edit: To be fair, on second thought, your point about Hawke is not - like the rest of your post - unresponsive, it's just mistaken.  Hawke's normality does not mean he/she is random, it just means that he/she is within x-standard deviations away from the mean - but that doesn't change the situation since we already new beginning stats were bounded.  Since Hawke is nonrandom, to say the game's approach is unreasonable would require saying that those domains for men and women wouldn't overlap, but that requires information about (among other things) x, which you don't have.

Modifié par Satyricon331, 07 avril 2011 - 12:19 .

[Galad22]

Irxy wrote...

Please, don't bring yellow press into this.
http://en.wikipedia....gy#Intelligence

You call BBC yellow press.

And then link wikipedia to me. That's just...

Wow.

[randName]

XxDeonxX wrote...

randName wrote...

XxDeonxX wrote...

The Corporate wrote...

Can I just note here that, despite women having the same attributes as men, making just as good soldiers as men, etc, BioWare still modelled them as being physically more slight than men.

You can't have your cake and eat it. Either women are more frail than men, as their slender structures and complete lack of substantial muscle mass indicate, or you otherwise make every woman thick and sturdily built. Panning across a front line of troops and seeing girls with the waists of broom handles standing next to men built like tree trunks and then suggesting that they're both equally as good in a scrap just seems absurd.

Making as good soldiers as men... Well... At the risk of sounding sexist there is a reason they are forbidden from the SAS I think Seals and many other special forces

& that is on earth, not in Thedas.

True, many reasons for that on Earth may simply be due to Gender Equality still not being fully established yet but Thedas still has a chance! lol... Sept maybe the Qunari and their restrictions even though they allow Women to take on leadership roles they still wont allow them millitant roles it would seem.. And them Qunari are a stubborn bunch anyway so idk if things will change there.

As for Antiva. Idk maybe, coulds go either way atm

Well in Thedas a female and a male warrior are of equal worth stat and ability wise, as you can see on your companions, and when you face gender different enemies on the field.

Simply saying that any physical reasons for why women are not in most armies today does not apply to DA.

The only real differance I would easily see, save culture, is that women are worth more than men for the sake of reproduction (due to rarity of eggs in comparison to sperm), but then there seems to be more than enough of people in the world of DA, despite wars and the blight, not to make people protect women more, perhaps due to their apparent bisexuality in Thedas, making men as good as parents as women, save the birthing part.

Modifié par randName, 07 avril 2011 - 12:06 .

[Dasha Dreyson]

The Corporate wrote...

Can I just note here that, despite women having the same attributes as men, making just as good soldiers as men, etc, BioWare still modelled them as being physically more slight than men.

You can't have your cake and eat it. Either women are more frail than men, as their slender structures and complete lack of substantial muscle mass indicate, or you otherwise make every woman thick and sturdily built. Panning across a front line of troops and seeing girls with the waists of broom handles standing next to men built like tree trunks and then suggesting that they're both equally as good in a scrap just seems absurd.

I have a friend who is a police officer and she is quite good at her job.

You're also forgetting that women's muscles tend to develop different than men. Many women who exercise a great deal have dense toned muscle. I do agree about the height though. While not exotically tall, I am taller than many men I know. It seems a little silly that if you're female, you're automatically short in a video game.

I don't know, while I could see having things like that would be fun for some (not all) guys who play females in video games, many of us (though probably not all) females would prefer to avoid it for at least a few hours of our day.

Modifié par Dasha Dreyson, 07 avril 2011 - 12:08 .

[Joush]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Oh?I thought "Hawke" was supposed to be just a normal guy/gal? In other words, nothing special.

But fine. I'll bite. Even assuming you take the cream-of-the-crop woman....there will still be thousands of man who will beat her when it comes to physical prowess/fitness.

There is a reason women in the army serve mostly in support roles. There is a reason that there are no women in special forces. And it isn't mysgony, but rather sheer practicality.

A woman can be a decent soldier. But she won't be ranked among the best..ever. The bar is set too high. Heck, when it comes to special forces, even most males who apply - who are already above average - fail. It's just THAT strenoius and demanding.
And assuming a women by some miracle does make it, she will wear herself out faster and be more prone to injury - simply because she well have to push herself harder to keep up.

There is nothing malicious about my words. It's just a statement of fact.

Women do have advantages of their own. Studies suggest they are more perceptive (especially in social situations) and are better at multi-tasking.


Personally, I like humans in fantasy words to be direct counterparts to real-life humans. After all, there's no point in calling them humans if you change them.

Acutely, your assumptions are pretty far off. Mysongoy is the reason women aren't used in "combat" roles by some counteries, and in the places they are allowed they are basicly the equal of men.

The bar to be a solider? Let's say a big tough one, like a US Army riflemen? It's one that pretty much any serious athleate could pass with ease. While women would have a smaller population fit for service as , say, a mortar crew or carrying a medium machine gun, the number of men fit for service as in those roles is rather small as well. You can be a very good solider while standing 5'5" and weighing 110 pounds.

An athletic adult woman of average height in Sweden could carry a much heavier load over longer distances then Audie Mruphy.

Modifié par Joush, 07 avril 2011 - 12:13 .

[Souris]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Souris wrote...
Not really, I mostly just dislike your opinion. I'm not a feminist by any means, but growing up with a single mother in the military makes me feel as though women are a lot stronger than people give them credit for. Both physically and emotionally.

In short, my mother is about as badass as any man out there. She was the only one in her squadron who could fix the Aurora's fuel cells, and was the boss of 18 men.

Which shows she's smart and a capable leader...nothing which has to do with physical fitness.

Except she does the PT test at the men's level, and gets exempt every time she does. And she's 52.

[DamnThoseDisplayNames]

I don't know, while I could see having things like that would be fun for some (not all) guys who play females in video games, many of us (though probably not all) females would prefer to avoid it for at least a few hours of our day.

That one I always find ironic. Women want to play as women in their games, but they don't want their characters to be women. But you can't wave two handed sword with lipstick on. No offence meant.

Modifié par DamnThoseDisplayNames, 07 avril 2011 - 12:22 .

[Dasha Dreyson]

DamnThoseDisplayNames wrote...

I don't know, while I could see having things like that would be fun for some (not all) guys who play females in video games, many of us (though probably not all) females would prefer to avoid it for at least a few hours of our day.

That's one I always find ironic. Women want to play as women in their games, but they don't want their characters to be women. Two handed sword with lipstick on. No offence meant.

I don't find it ironic. I see no reason why a female character can't be treated with respect. Your statement reflects the Qunari, which I don't mind the conversations with Sten because he is respectful about it even if he doesn't get it. Women want to play women in games, but they don't want to be trivialized (again this is a general statement that doesn't necessarily apply to every single woman out there) or treated like they don't deserve the same respect as someone else. I know you're not trying to offend, just looking for a response. Also, I don't have lipstick (not that it should matter one way or the other; I guess that's part of the trivialization).

[Lotion Soronarr]

Joush wrote...

Acutely, your assumptions are pretty far off. Mysongoy is the reason women aren't used in "combat" roles by some counteries, and in the places they are allowed they are basicly the equal of men.

My assumptions are supported by facts, studies and reports.
The US Army Combat Readyness Center and other institutions make it pretty clear.

The bar to be a solider? Let's say a big tough one, like a US Army riflemen? It's one that pretty much any serious athleate could pass with ease. While women would have a smaller population fit for service as , say, a mortar crew or carrying a medium machine gun, the number of men fit for service as in those roles is rather small as well. You can be a very good solider while standing 5'5" and weighing 110 pounds.

An athletic adult woman of average height in Sweden could carry a much heavier load over longer distances then Audie Mruphy.

A decent soldier. We are talking elites here.
And we are also taking about the ease of doing something. There's no doubt a woman can carry abackpack and march for hours, and reach the destination just as any man. But who will strain himself more? As you increase the weight and distance, who will have more and more trouble keeping up?

There is already an alarming rate of back injuries among women in the military as it is. Them pushing into more physicly demanding roles is ... unwise and unhealthy.
Of course, if a woman wants to ruin her spine..who am I to argue..

At the edn of hte day, when it comes to fantasy setting - such elvel of realism can be implemented. IT was done so before. No, it's not a necessity. no it's not required.
But IMHO, it's nice to have. Realism only increases immersion IMHO....

[berelinde]

I've got no problem imposing a strength penalty on female characters, but why stop there? Realism would be enhanced so much more by imposing cunning and willpower penalties on male characters. Fair is fair.

That was sarcasm, by the way.

[randName]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
At the edn of hte day, when it comes to fantasy setting - such elvel of realism can be implemented. IT was done so before. No, it's not a necessity. no it's not required.
But IMHO, it's nice to have. Realism only increases immersion IMHO....

You are more arguing for less fiction and more human conditions here on Terra.

Realistic is what makes sense, what could be, and under such a concept women could be stronger than men, as outside the mammalian group something that is not rare at all.

& You should have a larger concept with the ideas of Gods and spirits in DA than physically gender equal genders, something some apes already are.

Since physical gender equality, or one gender, either male or female, are all realistic, and can all be found on earth, while gods and spirits present a much larger issue of realism.


You could argue that evolution of a child birthing mother in Thedas then would be the same as here, the problem is that they are not evolved since the Maker made them, and in this case any logic of why can be thrown out based upon evolutionary ideas, and you would simply have to try to understand and argue from the perspective of what that God in a fictional universe thought when he made his humans.

And since Thedas and Terra are not the same, or we evolved through evolution, and they were created by a god, you are going to be hard pressed to find why we should be the same in both worlds outside your own preference.

Modifié par randName, 07 avril 2011 - 12:47 .

[The Sum of all Evil]

Irxy wrote...

Galad22 wrote...

Here is one link for smarter.

news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/education/8085011.stm

Please, don't bring yellow press into this.
http://en.wikipedia....gy#Intelligence

Well, you two should first agree on a common definition of smartness, as the quoted sources are about two very different things.

Also the BBC article surveys a obviously non-random population.

Modifié par The Sum of all Evil, 07 avril 2011 - 12:47 .

[The Sum of all Evil]

berelinde wrote...

I've got no problem imposing a strength penalty on female characters, but why stop there? Realism would be enhanced so much more by imposing cunning and willpower penalties on male characters. Fair is fair.

That was sarcasm, by the way.

Why not?  Although I would rather go for a magic bonus for women as it is in keeping with classic medieval perceptions.

On the other hand, differences between races are so small in DA, that gender (sex) differences would require them to be widened as well.