178 réponses à ce sujet

[Taura-Tierno]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

There is a reason women in the army serve mostly in support roles. There is a reason that there are no women in special forces. And it isn't mysgony, but rather sheer practicality.

A woman can be a decent soldier. But she won't be ranked among the best..ever. The bar is set too high. Heck, when it comes to special forces, even most males who apply - who are already above average - fail. It's just THAT strenoius and demanding.
And assuming a women by some miracle does make it, she will wear herself out faster and be more prone to injury - simply because she well have to push herself harder to keep up.

There is nothing malicious about my words. It's just a statement of fact.

Women do have advantages of their own. Studies suggest they are more perceptive (especially in social situations) and are better at multi-tasking.


Personally, I like humans in fantasy words to be direct counterparts to real-life humans. After all, there's no point in calling them humans if you change them.

Yet the vast majority of fantasy or fantasy-like media, whether literature, films or tv-series, seems to have decided that it's perfectly acceptable to change that fact. I mean, how many tv action series and movies aren't there with strong female "warriors"? Alias, Xena, Kill Bill ... off the top of my head. Tons of fantasy books feature female warriors who are on par with male warriors. And that would be fact in those books.

Making humans use magic is "changing" them. Allowing humans to have access to psychic abilities means "changing" them. So, what you're saying is that the humans in most fantasy (and a lot of science fiction) aren't really human anymore. So what does one more change matter?

[Dasha Dreyson]

The Sum of all Evil wrote...

Why not?  Although I would rather go for a magic bonus for women as it is in keeping with classic medieval perceptions.

I know you didn't mean it this way, but this statement bothers me because women who were perceived as having magical bonuses were burned at the stake. Again I know you didn't mean it that way, but if they ever went there I hope they don't use a magic bonus.

[Lotion Soronarr]

randName wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
At the edn of hte day, when it comes to fantasy setting - such elvel of realism can be implemented. IT was done so before. No, it's not a necessity. no it's not required.
But IMHO, it's nice to have. Realism only increases immersion IMHO....

You are more arguing for less fiction and more human conditions here on Terra.

Realistic is what makes sense, what could be, and under such a concept women could be stronger than men, as outside the mammalian group something that is not rare at all.

& You should have a larger concept with the ideas of Gods and spirits in DA than physically gender equal genders, something some apes already are.

Since physical gender equality, or one gender, either male or female, are all realistic, and can all be found on earth, while gods and spirits present a much larger issue of realism.


You could argue that evolution of a child birthing mother in Thedas then would be the same as here, the problem is that they are not evolved since the Maker made them, and in this case any logic of why can be thrown out based upon evolutionary ideas, and you would simply have to try to understand and argue from the perspective of what that God in a fictional universe thought when he made his humans.

And since Thedas and Terra are not the same, or we evolved through evolution, and they were created by a god, you are going to be hard pressed to find why we should be the same in both worlds outside your own preference.

Bah. If women of Thedas are as strong as men, they shoudl then look as strong as men. It's as simple as that.

Doesn'tmatter how they were created. And the "mage did it" and "it's fantasy" have always been and are TERRIBLE arguments.

[Russalka]

Would you truly sacrifice the perfect beautiful physique the women in Thedas have now for the sake of realism?

[Zmajc]

I regulary re-play all RPG's with male and female characters if there is an option and the game has enough replay value. Older RPG's had those small sex dependant differences regulary and i loved it. I think it added something to the game. I want more difference between a male vs female protagonist playthrough than just a different player model.

That's just me tho.

Modifié par Zmajc, 07 avril 2011 - 01:03 .

[The Baconer]

Pointless discussion. Just because it's a fact of reality has no bearing on whether or not it should be portrayed in the game. Which it shouldn't.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Dasha Dreyson wrote...

The Sum of all Evil wrote...

Why not?  Although I would rather go for a magic bonus for women as it is in keeping with classic medieval perceptions.

I know you didn't mean it this way, but this statement bothers me because women who were perceived as having magical bonuses were burned at the stake. Again I know you didn't mean it that way, but if they ever went there I hope they don't use a magic bonus.

It doesn't have to be a "magic" bonus. In fact, it doesn't even haev to be an attribute bonus. It can be a skill bonus or a perk or something similar.

[snackrat]

Personally I don't care a whit for stat bonuses or penalities, and given the customisation of our characters we'll be breaking from those molds quickly anyway. They already change stats based on class and its reletive training as Warden/Hawke grows up.

No, I'm more interested in the other part that OP mentioned that, by this point, everyone seems to have forgotten - different lines for different genders, different remarks. I mean, just talking to Meeran! As a male, he says something like "So you're Hawke: the nephew?" and mHawke looks relatively expressionless. If female "So... you're Hawke? Nice." and you get a displeased sneer from fHawke. Those little details help make you feel like the gender is more than just animation and model swaps, and I miss them.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Russalka wrote...

Would you truly sacrifice the perfect beautiful physique the women in Thedas have now for the sake of realism?

Do ALL women in Thedas have to be becautifull with perfect bodies?

Or did hte existance of more buffed and tonned women suddenly remove supermodels from our world?

[Russalka]

Then suggest for various body models, not make this a men vs women fight which is bound to get nowhere.

[The Sum of all Evil]

Dasha Dreyson wrote...

The Sum of all Evil wrote...

Why not?  Although I would rather go for a magic bonus for women as it is in keeping with classic medieval perceptions.

I know you didn't mean it this way, but this statement bothers me because women who were perceived as having magical bonuses were burned at the stake. Again I know you didn't mean it that way, but if they ever went there I hope they don't use a magic bonus.

Actually I patially meant it exactly that way. Especially since persecution of mages in DA seems to be quite similar to historical witch hunts (which BTW did not happen on a large scale in medieval times).  

But I agree that this would possibly make DA (even) 'darker' fantasy. I actually love settings to 'bother' me!

EDIT: BTW did anyone here play Darklands (by Microprose) I loved that little bugged game and it's approach to 'realism'. :-)

Modifié par The Sum of all Evil, 07 avril 2011 - 01:17 .

[Dasha Dreyson]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

It doesn't have to be a "magic" bonus. In fact, it doesn't even haev to be an attribute bonus. It can be a skill bonus or a perk or something similar.

It would need to be the same kind of bonus the male characters got though. If males got an attribute bonus, females should have an attribute bonus. If males had a skill bonus, then females should have a skill bonus.

Though I've never been a fan of imposing stat and skill rules based on race/gender/sex/whatever. I'd rather not have to decide whether to play something I'd see as more fun vs. statistically optimal. Though admittedly, it's not as big of a deal in a single player game as it is in something like WoW or tabletop DnD.

[DamnThoseDisplayNames]

Also, I don't have lipstick (not that it should matter one way or the other; I guess that's part of the trivialization).

I played some MMORPG's with gals and mature women to find out that they are being ripped off their money more often than men, because they want their avatar to look pretty. Had a cleric who changed her clothes on a regular basis. Know twas mature woman cause of clan voice chat.
Thing is, some (I would drop excessive terms like "many" or "most", then) women want pretty controversial stuff from their games, like both respect as a powerful warrior, a nice hairdo, and a caring prince for romance.
I think there should be a line in games that should't be crossed for the sake of someone being not offended. As an example, let's take a hypothetic situation where player's character is consripted into the militia and there is a bats*** lieutenant who laughs and kicks him all around just for the sake of being evil. He would say something like (if a character is male) - "Bwahaha you lazy sh** you can't even do hundred pushups and you call yourself a mhaan? You haz no balls you d***head you are nothing, a loser.." etc etc. I believe first thing a male player would do is try to prove that guy wrong (with good or evil ways, whatever). But what if (if a characer is female) he would cry some classic shauvinistic stuff about girls unable to be warriors, punching your female into the stomach and crying for you to go and play dolls? I believe some female players would be offended in a way. But what if that d***head had a genderless dialogue and acts for both sexes exactly the same? Could it make him less memorable character, and if so, would it be worth it to make some memorable character into less memorable because someone could get offended?
Is making a game genderless for the sake of some audiencies not getting offended worth it, like they did in DA2?
I think everything comes to a question of how much sexism one game can chew and not choke. But to decline it completely is also shallow, because people, by their nature, kinda sexist. You can see it from this one and other topics. Men and women do argue, fight, make peace, make love, and that is how life goes. How much life can (or should) game sacrifice so players would't have problems with enjoying playing it? Can (or should?) games reflect people's life or let em just be only shallow parodies on it?
I think problems with sexism and other stuff in the games are there just because games are a younger species of art, so people have too many prejudices about them being too real and serious (though it comes to absolutely ridiculous way of thinking, where sexism is bad, but making people explode into chunks of meat and blood is OK).

[The Sum of all Evil]

Sorry, wrong button. Pls delete.

Modifié par The Sum of all Evil, 07 avril 2011 - 01:17 .

[Irx]

Galad22 wrote...

You call BBC yellow press.
And then link wikipedia to me. That's just...
Wow.

Wiki article has linked references for every claim to a trusted competent source you can check and get more detailed info.

And the dumbest things I've ever heard from press came from BBC, so...

[randName]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Bah. If women of Thedas are as strong as men, they shoudl then look as strong as men. It's as simple as that.

Doesn'tmatter how they were created. And the "mage did it" and "it's fantasy" have always been and are TERRIBLE arguments.

For the same reason that character at the strength of 10 looks as strong as someone with the strength of 70 or what ever the cap is?

There is no connection at all in the game with mesh used and the actual strength of the characters.


It's as silly that a male mage with the strength of 10 looks as strong as a warrior with 70, just simplified design decisions from BioWare, and hardly an argument that women should be weaker than men, since the same argument would have hawk never to gain strength through out, and start as strong as he/she looks.

And something DA2 is filled with, robes with armour values far higher than a lower level plate armour, or robbers as powerful as to easily kill high dragons, assassins in cloth that will take more of a beating than a fully plated templar.
The correlation of the visuals in DA2, or in DA:O, have almost nothing to do with how the world works.

And I would prefer it if as you gained strength the mesh blended between states of skinny, to athletic to muscular, I really do, I'd prefer it if armour looked the part they fulfilled and not just be an arbitrary ornament.


And to take one part of the game that obviously disregards any reality, as your argument for reality is rather comical.


The argument that how they are created, by evolution or by gods, is the single most important argument for why they are as they are, and the basis of realism.
Or women and men of today are what they are because of evolution, we are what we are because of how we were created.

And if you want realism in DA, you should base it on how they were created in Thedas.

You call it terrible, fine, but your counter argument is laughable.
Or you better start a ton of threads and argue for all the other dissonance in the game based on looks opposed to what you actually find under it.

& would I prefer it if women warriors were portraid more as


opposed to what they currently are? yes.

& Then probably an even more muscular version post 30-35 in strength as she isn't a body builder, but a cross country skier (Marit Bjørgen)

And I want developers to start doing more than one body for the protagonist, one size does not fit all.

Modifié par randName, 07 avril 2011 - 01:34 .

[DaySeeker]

So the OP wants sexual stereotypes in the game because he wants to leer at computer chicks with his computer guy and computer guys in the game can join him in bashing women? Not all women in the game are warriors. I was almost interested the OP's idea until the explanation of why you wanted it.

If I played a femHawke with people making comments constantly I would want to stab them with my giant sword. I don't see how constant abuse would be fun for women. If you want a weak female protagonist then make her weak. I am amazed how anyone would see this as fun option for anyone.

[JasmoVT]

What is missing from DA2 is an opportunity for a Hawk of either gender to have a romance with someone that is flat out insane. Let's face it, all four of the love interest is flat out clawing at the walls crazy, how about a couple of characters with only the normal load of baggage. Makes you wonder if any of the creative staff a Bioware have ever been in a healthy relationship.

[Russalka]

JasmoVT wrote...

What is missing from DA2 is an opportunity for a Hawk of either gender to have a romance with someone that is flat out insane. Let's face it, all four of the love interest is flat out clawing at the walls crazy, how about a couple of characters with only the normal load of baggage. Makes you wonder if any of the creative staff a Bioware have ever been in a healthy relationship.

They've said that normal and healthier love interests would be boring. I kind of agree. Developers do not have the resources to fully explore deep and perhaps uneventful romances. It is easier to have a fast-paced dramatic and action-filled love, which, if done well, could be quite satisfactory.

Modifié par Russalka, 07 avril 2011 - 01:28 .

[DamnThoseDisplayNames]

I know you didn't mean it this way, but this statement bothers me because women who were perceived as having magical bonuses were burned at the stake.

There also were Medea, Circe, Erichto, Nimue, swan-princesess, Vasilisa the Wise, and every other one female characters from category of women-mystics. This is an archetype that comes from the echoes of time, carries a strong message and resonates a myth within people's hearts and minds. Sure developers need to sway a bit from "woman = cleric of the party" time to time, as it becomes boring and it is hard to make classic character say something new (but that's what writers talent is for), but just dropping it off "cause women were opressed and burnt on stakes" is no better than Real Women Don't Wear Dresses trope.
It's "the other", opposite part of that stick. Truth usually lies somewhere in the middle.

[CRISIS1717]

It's not rare to see a woman on the battlefield at all in Dragon Age, which also means in the DA universe warriors are evenly matched regardless of gender.

[Zkyire]

DaySeeker wrote...

So the OP wants sexual stereotypes in the game because he wants to leer at computer chicks with his computer guy and computer guys in the game can join him in bashing women? Not all women in the game are warriors. I was almost interested the OP's idea until the explanation of why you wanted it.
 

That has absolutely nothing to do with what he said.

He said absolutely nothing about wanting to leer at and/or bash women. Don't put words in his mouth.

Modifié par IEatWhatIPoo, 07 avril 2011 - 01:39 .

[Perles75]

I think this discussion on merits and flaws of women went a bit far from the subject of the topic, which was more focused on the differentiation of the dialogues than on giving attribute bonuses to this or that...

[The Baconer]

IEatWhatIPoo wrote...
That has absolutely nothing to do with what he said.

He wanted an added element of realism based on the average physical strength of both genders.

He said absolutely nothing about wanting to leer at and/or bash women. Don't put words in his mouth.

It kind of comes off that way, because if gender differences meant that much to him it could be as simple as not putting as many points in strength as a female character or opting out of making female warriors altogether. But no, apparently everyone should be subject to his list of cherry-picked elements of reality.

[Dasha Dreyson]

DamnThoseDisplayNames wrote...

I know you didn't mean it this way, but this statement bothers me because women who were perceived as having magical bonuses were burned at the stake.

There also were Medea, Circe, Erichto, Nimue, swan-princesess, Vasilisa the Wise, and every other one female characters from category of women-mystics. This is an archetype that comes from the echoes of time, carries a strong message and resonates a myth within people's hearts and minds. Sure developers need to sway a bit from "woman = cleric of the party" time to time, as it becomes boring and it is hard to make classic character say something new (but that's what writers talent is for), but just dropping it off "cause women were opressed and burnt on stakes" is no better than Real Women Don't Wear Dresses trope.
It's "the other", opposite part of that stick. Truth usually lies somewhere in the middle.

I responding to the association of medieval times and magic, since that was the example laid before me. That is a very specific time with a very specific attitude and I picked up on that. That's all. I think you're giving me far too much credit in trying to push a debate than I deserve.

Modifié par Dasha Dreyson, 07 avril 2011 - 01:42 .